Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

[Intense]

The Nicene Creed

The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed

John / 17
17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

http://www.holybible.com/resources/KJV_DFND/index.php?Book=68&mode=4&BookTitle=John&Chapter=17

 

[Buford]

Is Jesus God?

The Trinity

Polytheism

You clearly do not understand Christian Doctrine.

 

[GreatestIam]

Your idea of applying morality as we know it in our carnal bodies and minds to God is not right. Your logic is false.

Is it your morality that calls your body carnal?
If you can use yours, why can I not use mine?

Quite easy to say that my logic is false but I see that you did not have what it takes to correct it. Typical Christian.

Regards
DL

 

[daveman]

Is Jesus God?

The Trinity

I asked a yes/no question. Is Jesus God?

And I answered, your petulant foot-stamping aside.

 

[daveman]

Only a fool dies when there is no need to.

Regards
DL

There was a need: To redeem man.

There was no other possible alternative? I thought your god was omnipotent.

He is. If you have problems with His plan, you can gripe at Him when you meet Him.

Good luck with that.

 

[GreatestIam]

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

-- John 15:13

Only a fool dies when there is no need to.

Regards
DL

And that's where you fail to understand. The Atonement was needed. We are all subject to the Fall. Without the Atonement there would always be two great obstacles that we could never overcome on our own that would prevent us from reaching our divine potential: Death and sin.

Because of the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Christ, we will all rise from the dead and we can all be forgiven of our since and recieve the grace of God in our lives.

Without the atonement of Christ, God would not be just and merciful without breaking His word or the world going to hell.

Yet others walked with God in heaven before Jesus died.
So much for a needed sacrifice.

Human sacrifice is immoral as it shows a God who can be bribed.

Only an insane God would say that only his son's murder can save the world from his own wrath.

Regards
DL

 

[daveman]

Your idea of applying morality as we know it in our carnal bodies and minds to God is not right. Your logic is false.

Is it your morality that calls your body carnal?
If you can use yours, why can I not use mine?

Quite easy to say that my logic is false but I see that you did not have what it takes to correct it. Typical Christian.

Regards
DL

You would not accept correction.

 

[GreatestIam]

The Trinity

Polytheism

You clearly do not understand Christian Doctrine.

Constantine did and used it to his benefit after buying the church.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4]Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by animefan48
Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies.


Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity)

But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.)

http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx


Even a Trinitarian scholar admits the Earliest & Original beliefs were NOT Trinitarian!

The trinity formulation is a later corruption away from the earliest & original beliefs!

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".
Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".
R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173, 1980

The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).

"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . .
(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4]Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[Buford]

Polytheism

You clearly do not understand Christian Doctrine.

Constantine did and used it to his benefit after buying the church.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4]Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by animefan48
Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies.


Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity)

But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.)

http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx


Even a Trinitarian scholar admits the Earliest & Original beliefs were NOT Trinitarian!

The trinity formulation is a later corruption away from the earliest & original beliefs!

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".
Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".
R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173, 1980

The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).

"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . .
(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4]Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

The Bible clearly states God is a Spirit. The Bible clearly states the Father is God, Jesus Christ the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. THREE persons, ONE God.

 

[GreatestIam]

There was a need: To redeem man.

There was no other possible alternative? I thought your god was omnipotent.

He is. If you have problems with His plan, you can gripe at Him when you meet Him.

Good luck with that.

Is God's plan on tract and are these children's deaths a part of it?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMXoPhgTkuY&feature=player_embedded](9) His Plan - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

The Bible clearly states God is a Spirit. The Bible clearly states the Father is God, Jesus Christ the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. THREE persons, ONE God.

Called Constantine.

Literalists are,

Regards
DL

 

[Buford]

Called Constantine.

Literalists are,

Regards
DL

Constantine didn't write the Scriptures. Do you need me to post the Scriptures that show God is three persons?

 

[GreatestIam]

Called Constantine.

Literalists are,

Regards
DL

Constantine didn't write the Scriptures. Do you need me to post the Scriptures that show God is three persons?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ]Christian concept of TRINITY EXPOSED - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[AmericanFirst]

Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

I wrote these two posts and got almost no response. Not a usual thing for my posts. This tells me that I hit the nail right on the head and Christians have no apologetics to refute my claim.

==========================

If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

TED Blog | The real difference between liberals and conservatives: Jonathan Haidt on TED.com

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

=============================

God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

Nothing but the blood? - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

TED Blog | The real difference between liberals and conservatives: Jonathan Haidt on TED.com

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

==============================

This lack of opposition to the premise given tells me that Christians may actually be more moral than what I give them credit for. They do not walk their talk in these cases and that is a plus.

Seems Christians actually recognize good morals even if they do not preach them.
I thank Christians for confirming my view that they are just following tradition, dogma and culture while not really following their God. Thank God for that. Any sane man would reject the bible God.

Regards
DL

To respond to your ignorance would be futile. Live on fool.

 

[Buford]

Called Constantine.

Literalists are,

Regards
DL

Constantine didn't write the Scriptures. Do you need me to post the Scriptures that show God is three persons?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ]Christian concept of TRINITY EXPOSED - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

Is that guy your teacher? Blind leading the blind. Carry on.

 

[GreatestIam]

[qu
To respond to your ignorance would be futile. Live on fool.

Yes I know. You have no good argument against except for this childish response.
You do my work for me.

Keep riding your scapegoat Jesus.
Perhaps some day you will learn that your legs are made for walking.

Regards
DL

 

[daveman]

There was no other possible alternative? I thought your god was omnipotent.

He is. If you have problems with His plan, you can gripe at Him when you meet Him.

Good luck with that.

Is God's plan on tract and are these children's deaths a part of it?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMXoPhgTkuY&feature=player_embedded](9) His Plan - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

Yes, they are part of it.

Now you will predictably say "Ur gawd is a MURDERERERER!!!!" -- as if that alters His divinity one iota. Did you know you're utterly impotent? If you see yourself as the highest power in the universe, the universe is in pretty sad shape.

Again: How many believers have you talking into abandoning their faith?

 

[Avatar4321]

Yet others walked with God in heaven before Jesus died.
So much for a needed sacrifice.

Human sacrifice is immoral as it shows a God who can be bribed.

Only an insane God would say that only his son's murder can save the world from his own wrath.

Regards
DL

Those who came before Christ knew He would come in the Merdian of Time to Redeem them. They exercised faith in Him and the sacrifice they knew would occur.

Even then, they did not enter heaven until after the Resurrection. Until then they awaited in the Spirit World where men remain between death and resurrection. Where Christ went after His death to preach liberty to the captive Spirits who were once wicked and destroyed in the Flood as Peter said. (1 Peter 3: 18-20)

No one resurrected until Christ rose from the grave. No one ascended to Heaven to be with the Father before He did. (1 Cor 15:16)

In short, you dont know as much as you think you know about what the scriptures teach.

There is nothing immoral about sacrificing your life for someone else. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

If God is Just then he must punish the wicked? Since we are all wicked, how can God extend us mercy without violating His word? According to the word of God, we must all be punished or God's word is void and He would be a liar. If God is a liar and His word void, then He would cease to be God.

How then can He provide mercy to those who seek a second chance? The punishment must be carried out, or God is a liar. That's why the Atonement is necessary. Christ had to come and voluntarily sacrifice Himself for our sins. Because He, who broke no law, was willing to take the punishment of the Law, He can fulfilly both justice by fulfilling the punishment decreed by the Lord, and extend mercy upon those who repent of their sins.

There is no other way God could be both just and merciful.

You think human sacrifice is immoral. But that's because you fail to understand what sacrifice is. The key is the root of the word - Sacri IE Sacred. A sacrifice is something you give to make holy. We are all to sacrifice ourselves, maybe not to the point of dying, but sometimes the biggest sacrifices we make are living our lives the way God wants us to rather than the way we want to.

Ive searched the scriptures and sought forgiveness of my sins. Through my own experiences with the Holy Spirit I know that I've been forgiven. I know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is real and has power to changes the hearts of men. I know what it means to be born again because of the grace of God. The Atonement is real and it has the power to change human nature. I know, because it's changed mine. I dont pretend to be perfect in the slightest, but I've seen many sins that I used to find so tempting and easy to commit become the exact opposite. Christ has healed me physically and spiritually. And why should I deny this? Because you dont understand?

I know there is a resurrection from the dead. The Spirit has revealed this to me. Who am I to deny the revelations God has blessed me with?

I ask you to humble yourselves before God. Acknowledge your sins. Supplicate the Father in the name of Son that He might reveal Himself to you. Search the scriptures and you will find Him. There is no point fighting against something you clearly havent studied in depth. Have you even read the Bible?

 

[beagle9]

Cast not your perls before swine here, this one may have been given up as a reprobate already, and thus he has anger and rebellion within him that has led him to become very wrecklace and foolhearty in his life it apears, and for all that is now taken note of in his words, it apears that he has became a reprobate, in which possibly represents what he is exhibiting now in such words as is written by him for all to see.

It is probably because of the foolish choices in which he has made within his life concerning his existance while here (in which he now seeks company in), that has since led him to the state of mind in which he now exhibits here for all to see. He wants for you to join him, instead of him ever actually joining you sooner or later, so why waste your time?

He undoubtedly has made choices in which torments him badly down deep into his soul-less body of exsistance that for which he has created for himself now, and for which he now lives in upon the earth in agony there of. It is his intent to spread his misery and anger around to his gullable victims, and he has chosen this format to attempt this task, so be not moved by his serpent apeal that is found within his worldly wisdom of unwise words spoken, and/or is found in his hynosis as a serpent, for it is unprofitable and evil these words in which he speaks out against our God and our Christ, and it is that we should know this and rebuke such evilness always when we do see such signs along the pathways of our lives.

This is my take on this piece of evil work that has been written upon this site.. There are no confusions in which this person has, in which he tries to make one think he is confused by his questioning of, but rather it is a set up by him, to try and lure those who are weak into his lair of deciet, that which he has created in this evilness.

 

[catzmeow]

The Trinity

I asked a yes/no question. Is Jesus God?

And I answered, your petulant foot-stamping aside.

So, your god set up a system in which he had to kill himself to appease himself because the imperfect humans he created acted imperfectly, as designed?

Sounds to me like he hadn't thought this through very far, much like his pre-Noah test-run humans. Remember that situation? He had to drown all of those test run humans because they weren't well-designed.

Of course, all of these stories make perfect sense.

I'm super worried about "meeting your god."