Israel's "Right to Exist"?

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by sealadaigh, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. sealadaigh
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    sealadaigh BANNED

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    just what exactly is it?

    i hear the term "right to exist" used quite a bit when speaking of israel and occasionally, but very rarely, some other states, but no one really explains it or questions the concept.

    i mean, who or what gives israel this right to exist? who conferred it upon israel or was it just expressed generally and is applied to all states and would be states? did israel have a right to exist before it became a state? it would seem that such a right to exist would be universal. is it codified or mentioned in some jurisdictional or international legal system? anywhere? does it have any historical or legal precedent or continuity and, if so, from when? where?

    does there ever come a time when such a "right to exist" ceases and, if so, when, where, and how?

    personally. i have no idea whether israel, or any state, has a "right to exist." it just seems like a very odd concept with no precedent or standing whatsoever.
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  2. Hossfly
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    Hossfly Zionut & Dittohead Supporting Member

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    Yep, that's a head scratcher, by golly.
  3. MrAlwaysRight
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    The Palestinian government recognizes Israel's right to exist.

    When will Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist?
  4. MrAlwaysRight
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    Israel wasn't satisified with the Palestinian government recognizing their right to exist; now, the Israeli government wants them to recognize Israel as a theocracy- a "Jewish" state.

    Which would make sense,maybe, if most of Israel's population followed Judaism!
  5. Hossfly
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    Hossfly Zionut & Dittohead Supporting Member

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    Don't you represent the Israeli government? And all True Torah Jews?
  6. Hossfly
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    Hossfly Zionut & Dittohead Supporting Member

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    What part of the Palisimian government doesn't have a charter that doesn't vow to wipe out Jewry?
  7. SAYIT
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    A state's right to exist seems to come from the fact that it exists. For instance, while the state of Israel has existed for over 64 years, the state of "Palestine" has never existed. The reason it is such an issue with Israel is that some mindless twits amuse themselves and each other by claiming Israel (and only Israel) has no right to exist. Since Israel is the world's only predominately Jewish state, guess what kind of people do the challenging.
    Anyway, I hope that answers your questions.
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  8. SAYIT
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    Perhap's if and when the state of Palestine exists, eh?
    "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." - Abba Eban
  9. sealadaigh
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    sealadaigh BANNED

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    so you think the only reason israel has a right to exist because it does exist, and that, say, 65 years ago it had no right to exist...and should it be overrun it no longer has a right to exist.

    since palestine and israel is one of the last remnants of the european colonialism that began in the 15th century, began to wane as the decolinization in the 17th and 18th century began, and any new colonial adventures were eliminated shortly after WWI, except for the palestine mandate and the six counties in the northeast of ireland, then i would call those people who who object to the israeli state as anti-colonialists, anti-imperialists, humanitarians, a few anti-semites, civil rights and human rights activists..

    and no...you really didn't answer my question. i don't really think it is a question a zionist can answer, and particularly in general terms.
  10. P F Tinmore
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    Interesting. What countries have expressed that they have the right to exist?
  11. georgephillip
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    georgephillip VIP Member Supporting Member

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    Possibly those who've also expressed their right to annex?

    "The recently published report by an Israeli judge concluding that Israel is not in fact occupying the Palestinian territories – despite a well-established international consensus to the contrary – has provoked mostly incredulity or mirth in Israel and abroad.

    "Leftwing websites in Israel used comically captioned photographs to highlight Justice Edmond Levy’s preposterous finding. One shows an Israeli soldier pressing the barrel of a rifle to the forehead of a Palestinian pinned to the ground, saying: 'You see – I told you there’s no occupation.'”

    Israel’s Annexation Plan » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
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  12. SAYIT
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    Are you suggesting Ireland must be dissolved because it has no right to exist? I'm shocked!
  13. sealadaigh
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    good luck...ir seems like they don't want to touch this one...LOL.

    must be a lot easier to chant the "right to exist" mantra than to sit down and actually explain what it means.

    i am beginning to think that when israel proclaims they have a right to exist, what they really mean is they have the right to deprive others of their existence.

    makes for a good sound bite though...but it wears thin because way too much wool has been pulled over way too many eyes.
  14. sealadaigh
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    i am not saying "yay" or "nay: on ireland's right to exist because i have no idea about the idea of right to exist. i am asking a question(s) about the concept and really am not getting answers. what is particularly frustrating is this board is full of posters and visitors who would scream from the rooftops that israel has a right to exist, and they do scream it, along with many israeli prime-ministers.

    other states/people have also claimed a "right to exist" but that has been a recent phenomenon and basically, they are just following israel's lead. i was curious as to what the right to exist meant initially. now i am curious also as to why those proponents of israel's "right to exist" have little or no idea what it means.

    i don't know why you want to bring ireland into it. i have never heard any irishman say that ireland has a right to exist, nor have i heard any irishman claim that they have a right to establish a celtic nation on the lands their ancestors had inhabited some 200+ years before the birth of christ, which would be most of southern europe extending all the way to the balkans.. people would think they are crazy.

    sheesh, i could defend israel better than y'all do, and i think a lot of the things they are doing is indefensible.

    now go ahead and don't answer the question. divert some more.
  15. irosie91
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    The issue of Israel's RIGHT TO EXIST does not originate with Israel---it originates with the teaching of the jihadist dogs which is "ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST" If you have an arguement with the very concept----speak to the dogs As to Israeli recognition of the "right" of the "palestinian nation" to exist-----No country has an obligaton to recognize a state which is devoted to its destruction. The USA and allies occupied Japan and German etc-----after world war II----Those occupations and recognitions of their independent governments were based on PEACE TREATIES and MANY AGREEMENTS Had Japan decided to become devoted to the destruction of the USA and had decided to teach its children that slitting the throats of USA infants is a noble deed----Japan would still be under occupation
  16. SAYIT
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    I answered your question, Princess, but you didn't like the answer.
    Those who "scream from the rooftops that Israel has a right to exist" do so in response to those on the adjacent rooftop who are screaming "Israel has no right to exist!"
    It's just tit-4-tat.
    And while you whine about me having brought Ireland into this discourse, it actually was you (read the bold above) that did so.
  17. docmauser1
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    Too bad counterpunch losers occupationally forgot to supply names of that palistanian shakh, sheikh, sultan, emir, pasha, president, prime-minister of that "palestine" to elevate "occupation-consensus" above the drivel level, of course.
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  18. georgephillip
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    "The US and Israel have demanded further that Palestinians not only recognize Israel's rights as a state in the international system, but that they also recognize Israel's abstract 'right to exist,' a concept that has no place in international law or diplomacy, and a right claimed by no one.

    "In effect, the US and Israel are demanding that Palestinians not only recognize Israel in the normal fashion of interstate relations, but also formally accept the legitimacy of their expulsion from their own land."

    On Israel, the US and Turkey, Noam Chomsky interviewed by Sabahattin Atas

    Israel's "right to exist" exists only in the minds of contemporary Zionists and their useful evangelical idiots who believe their "god" gave the Jews all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River. They are no better, in a moral sense, than the Arab fundamentalists calling for Israel's extermination.
  19. georgephillip
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    drivel...help Chomsky understand the "non-occupation" you're blathering about:

    "On the matter of legitimacy and recognition, once the State of Israel was established in 1948, my feeling has been that it should have the rights of any state in the international system: no more, no less.

    "That includes, specifically, the right to live in peace and security within its recognized international borders, understood to be the pre-June 1967 borders, with minor and mutual adjustments.

    "These rights have been recognized by a very broad international consensus since the mid-1970s, including the major Arab states. The US and Israel, virtually alone, have opposed the international consensus since the mid-1970s, and still do.

    "Since the mid-1970s, the US has vetoed Security Council resolutions calling for a two-state settlement on the international border with full recognition of the rights of Israel and a new Palestinian state, has regularly voted against General Assembly resolutions to this effect (along with Israel, sometimes one or another dependency), and blocked other diplomatic efforts seeking to achieve this goal."

    On Israel, the US and Turkey, Noam Chomsky interviewed by Sabahattin Atas

    How many additional rights are the heroic Hebrews entitled to?
    Do those rights include title to all land between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River?
    Drivel on.
  20. irosie91
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    Israel has a right to designate itself a JEWISH COUNTRY to the same extent that a country populated by muslims has a right to declare itself a MUSLIM COUNTRY In fact Israel has the right to restrict citizenship entirely to jews----just as MALDIVES has recently declared that one must be a muslim to be a citizen of that country Your comments demonstrate the fact that you have a notion that jews should have less rights than non jews

    As to the assertion by some of your ilk that NO OTHER COUNTRY HAS DECLARED ITS RIGHT TO EXIST-------wrong again The Declaration of Independence ---ratified in 1776 in Philadelphia was a clear statement of THE RIGHT OF THE UNITED STATES TO EXIST you should learn some history----in fact current events would help too..
    As to who does or does not "follow judaism" ----none of your business. I have worked with many muslims who came to the USA from self declared "MUSLIM COUNTRIES" In fact sometime ago my job included GREETING new comers from those lands-------the first question MANY MANY of them asked was "where can I buy beer" Does that mean that Iran and Pakistan cannot call themselves "muslim countries"?
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