Israel / Palestine Peace Plan

[Marc39]

Dummy, Lebanese view themselves, for the most part as Arab.
.

However an Iranian is Persian, not an arab. It's akin to calling someone of Japanese heritage, French.....

Duh.

 

[GHook93]

I'll say.

I read the book. Palestine was part of Greater Syria.

You didn't read the book; you didn't even know of its existence before I posted a pic of it.

It should be a lesson to you: do a little more research yourself before posting bogus crap off dubious websites that is easily shown to be false. But I hope you keep doing it, because it is my pleasure to expose this sort of thing.

To recap: You claimed that Hitti said "there is no such thing as Palestine in history" - yet here we have his book about that very subject, by name: the history of Syria including Palestine.

Your invented quote is bogus, just like your invented Congressional resolution - the only mention of it tracks right back to Zionist disinfo factories.

Here is the the history of Palestine:

2200BC - Canaanites Period - Abraham in Land of Canaan. Egypt conquers and enslaves the Jewish People.

1200-1000 BC - Israelites take the scene after the exodus from Egypt.
During the conquest of Israel. Many different tribes in Israel

1000 - 586 BC: Sole Jewish Rule: in Land of Israel and Judah

722-586 BC: Assyrian Rule: Assyrians conquer Israel; Most Jews flee to the other Jewish Kingdom of Judah

586 - 539 BC: Babylonian Rule: Babylonians Conquer the 2nd Jewish kingdom (Judah) - Destroy the 1st temple and expel the Jews

539 - 333 BC: Persian Rule, with nearly automous Jewish soverignty - Cyrus the Great conquered the Babylonians and let the Jews return to Israel and Judah. The 2nd temple was build and the Jews were free to practice their religion. Jews were self-rule as a satrapie of Persia. Governed themselves but paid taxes to the state.

333-165 BC: Greek Rule - Alexander the Great conquered Israel, but the Israelites maintain semi self-rule for a time.

165-63 BC: Jewish Golden Era - The Maccabean Revolt freed the Jews.

63 BC - 333 AD: Roman Era:
This is the most critical time in the history of Israel and the for the Jews. The events in this era lead to the excile of the Jews, mainly throughout Europe, Russia and the Middle East (hence the reason the pre-1900 why there were so many Jews are in Europe and Russia) and the mass extermination of Jews. It has been estimated that 2-2.5 million Jews were killed during this time. I saw a special on the history channel a while back that if the Roman-Jewish wars never happened that there could have been 200-300 million Jews in the world today.

- 63 BC - 4 AD: Herod the Great Rule (Jewish King) - The Jews ruled Israel (Judea) as as a a Roman Client King. They Jews had semi-automny.
- 6 AD - 66 A: After Herod's death the Romans tightened their rule by establishing a Roman Procurator (Roman overlord) - who collected taxes.
- 66 AD The First Great Jewish Revolt! The Jews revolted against the Procurator placing a Pagan Statute on top of the 2nd Great Temple. It was disastrous for the Jews. 600,000-1,300,00 were killed. The first Jewish Dispora throughout the Middle East, Europe and Russia occurred. The 2nd Temple was destroyed. The Jews official lost their State.
- 70 AD - 132 AD: The Jews slowly came back to Israel
- 132 AD: The 2nd Jewish Revolt started and was successful in expelling the Romans
132 - 135 AD: Jewish Independent Israel
135 AD: Roman took their revenge and brutally destroyed the revolt. 580K Jews were killed. The remaining ones were further exciled throughout Europe, M.E. and Russia. More salt on the wounds the Romans changed name of Israel/Judea to Palestina (later Palestine) after the Israelite's long extinct enemy the Philistines.

135-330 Rome Rule - Jews were completely exciled

330 AD - 614 AD: Byzantine Rule:
Jews were allowed to return and returned in numbers. There were occassional revolts, but the numbers increased.

614 - 619 AD: Jewish Rule. After an alliance with the Persians the Jews and Persians took Palestina. The Jewish had independent rule. Last time before the rebirth

619 - 625 AD: Persian Rule - Persian took Palestina as a colony, but Jews remained

625 - 638 AD: Byzantine Rule - The Jews feeling betrayed by the Persian signed an alliance with the Byzantines in exchange for amnesty. After the Jews help the Byzantines expell the Persians, the Byzantines attacked the Jews killing many and exciling even more to Europe, Russian and the M.E.

638 - 1099 AD: Muslim Rule - Arab Crusades - The newly found Islamic religion went on a quest to rule the world. Look at all the places that the Arab Crusades hit (except Spain - because of the inquisition) and you will see a predominate Muslim country. However, the Jews were not exciled. At times they were presecuted, but they were able to remain and set up Jewish villages and communities. So 1/2 millenium after the Roman's changed the name from Israel to Palestine, the Arabs finally arrived on the scene.

1099 - 1187 AD: Christian European Rule - The first crusade lead to the killing of nearly every Muslim, Jew and even Christian in Jerusalem. Mass-killings of Jews throughout Palestine and evern Europe.

1187 - 1244 AD: Muslim Rule - Saladin conquered Jerusalem in 1187 and the rest Palestina by 1244
1244 - 1517 AD: Muslim Rule:

The Mamluks destroyed all towns on the flat coastal plains in order to rid the land of the Crusader presence and make sure it never returned. The main exceptions were Jaffa, Gaza, Lydda and Ramle. As a result of this, most trade with the west was curtailed. Due to the many earthquakes, the religious extremism and the black plague that hit during this era, the population dwindled to around 200,000 souls. It is during this period that the land began to have an indigenous Levantine Muslim majority and even in the traditional Jewish stronghold of Eastern Galilee, a new Jewish-Muslim culture began to develop

.

1517-1831 AD: Turkish Rule

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks occupied Palestine. The country became part of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople appointed local governors. Public works, including the city walls, were rebuilt in Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1537. An area around Tiberias was given to Don Joseph HaNasi for a Jewish enclave. Following the expulsions from Spain, the Jewish population of Palestine rose to around 25% (includes non-Ottoman citizens, excludes Bedouin) and regained its former stronghold of Eastern Galilee. That ended in 1660 when they were massacred at Safed and Jerusalem. During the reign of Dahar al Omar, Pasha of the Galilee, Jews from Ukraine began to resettle Tiberias.
Quote:
Jewish immigration to Palestine, particularly to the "four sacred cities" (Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron) which already had significant Jewish communities, increased particularly towards the end of Ottoman rule

1831-1841: Egyptian Rule.
Egypt conquered Palestine/Israel from thge Turks for a period of 10 years. Yet they didn't create a separate Palestinian state and there were no calls to create a separate Palestinian state!

1841-1917: Ottoman Rule - The Turks reconquered the lands from the Egyptians. Large amount of Jewish immigration towards the larger part of rule, due to mass discrimination of Jews in Europe.

1917 - 1948: British Rule:
The British Manddate promised the lands to both the Palestinian Arab and Jews in a parition plan. During this time the lightly populated lands were flooded with Arab migrants who were not restricted in any ways during the White Paper days.

1948 - Present: Jewish Rule
The Parition Plan was accepted by the Jews, but not the Arabs and War broke out in 1948-1949. With Egypt ruling over Gaza and Jordon ruling over West Bank. Although both countries had the power to grant the Palestinians an independent state, they never did. Then in the '67 after the six day war Israel acquired Gaza and the West Bank.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...-the-jewish-presence-in-israel-palestine.html

 

[GHook93]

Also, in terms of history, it just seems absurd to me in a way. Even if the jews really were the bad guys (which they weren't and aren't) every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.... except the Pals who are used by the arabs to be the thorn in their people's sides and distract from their own internal problems.

I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere. Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries. For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power. And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.

Wow that is a fallacy, most displaced people never return to the home land in great numbers!

 

[GHook93]

I say we roll back the hands of time a half century and give the Jews half of Utah as a homeland and let them fight it out with the Mormons...if I was king of the world

If you were king of the world we would be fucked!

And if the Jews were in Utah, you would be bitching about them their and coming up with some grand conspiracy of how they are trying to take over the world.

 

[jillian]

I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere. Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries. For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power. And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.

Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.

what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?

I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't be very tolerant. And I'm pretty sure the U.N. would tell us to piss off.

 

[Coyote]

I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere. Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries. For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power. And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.

Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.

what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?

I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't be very tolerant. And I'm pretty sure the U.N. would tell us to piss off.

I don't think those situations are comparable - you and your family are not stateless refugees and Belarus is not considered "occupied" territory.

You have people who fled fighting in Bosnia for example, who have subsequently returned when stability was achieved. Or Ugandan refugees returning home. Burundian refugees return home from Tanzania finally, after fleeing a 1972 conflict.

Clearly, they do return back when stability is achieved, not necessarily through conquest on the battlefield.

 

[Coyote]

Also, in terms of history, it just seems absurd to me in a way. Even if the jews really were the bad guys (which they weren't and aren't) every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.... except the Pals who are used by the arabs to be the thorn in their people's sides and distract from their own internal problems.

I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere. Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries. For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power. And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.

Wow that is a fallacy, most displaced people never return to the home land in great numbers!

Better bone up on your fallacies.

Jillian said: every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere

I said: Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries.

Where's the fallacy?

 

[Dr Grump]

Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.

what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?

I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't be very tolerant. And I'm pretty sure the U.N. would tell us to piss off.

Were your ancestors pushed or did they leave of their own accord? A lot of Pals had lived their since day one, and were moved by force. It's not as if this happened 500 years ago, or that the Pals were interlopers who had been sitting there 50 years then were ousted.

You also have to remember it is a small portion of Pals who are doing the lobbing of missiles. Israel has the right to hunt them down and do what they do. They don't have the right to fire indiscriminately into houses or people throwing rocks.

 

[jillian]

Were your ancestors pushed or did they leave of their own accord? A lot of Pals had lived their since day one, and were moved by force. It's not as if this happened 500 years ago, or that the Pals were interlopers who had been sitting there 50 years then were ousted.

You also have to remember it is a small portion of Pals who are doing the lobbing of missiles. Israel has the right to hunt them down and do what they do. They don't have the right to fire indiscriminately into houses or people throwing rocks.

well, do you call pogroms pushing? was my great grandfather being murdered while driving around on his rounds pushing? I figure having your windows broken every sunday night while people threw stones at the house a pretty good push. don't you? were they given eviction papers? no. but neither were the pals.

Most pals were not moved by force. Most were moved voluntarily because of complying with the grand mufti's request.

it may be a small portion of pals who are doing the actual firing of missiles, but the rest are being ill used as human shields. that isn't israel's fault. and no other country would be asked to tolerate it.

when WWII was fought, entire cities were flattened because it was strategically necessary. No one said "boo". And from where I sit, people only say "boo" now for one reason.

ultimately, it does come down to what would be done if a bunch of terrorists were lobbing missiles into texas or cali from mexico.

like i said... i'm pretty sure the response would be quick and pretty complete... even if the entire city of Tiajuana went buh bye.

I'm pretty sure Israel wasn't ever supposed to survive. The arabs were given all of the high ground, defensible positions and fortresses. They were armed by the soviets while the US and britain wouldn't give arms to the Jews.

The problems don't come from pals being displaced. The problems come from jews not dying like they were supposed to.

 

[José]

Originally posted by jillian
Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.

what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?

I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't be very tolerant. And I'm pretty sure the U.N. would tell us to piss off.

During the American War of Aggression against Mexico, Californios put up a heroic armed resistance against thousands of Anglo land grabbers cowardly helped by the US Army:

Small example:

1846 - Battle of Dominguez Rancho, October 9. José Antonio Carrillo leads Californio forces in victory against 350 US Marines and sailors near Los Angeles.

etc, etc, etc...

After the war, Californios took refuge in Mexico but were soon allowed to return to California.

Here you are, Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine.

An irrefutable example of "Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle?"

 

[José]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

 

[José]

Come on, Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine.

Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.

Oh wait... they were all absorbed by the US after the war and today have the same rights as any other american citizen.

Maybe this is the difference between a REAL liberal democracy like America and a Jewish Racial Dictatorship like Israel?

 

[Coyote]

Were your ancestors pushed or did they leave of their own accord? A lot of Pals had lived their since day one, and were moved by force. It's not as if this happened 500 years ago, or that the Pals were interlopers who had been sitting there 50 years then were ousted.

You also have to remember it is a small portion of Pals who are doing the lobbing of missiles. Israel has the right to hunt them down and do what they do. They don't have the right to fire indiscriminately into houses or people throwing rocks.

well, do you call pogroms pushing? was my great grandfather being murdered while driving around on his rounds pushing? I figure having your windows broken every sunday night while people threw stones at the house a pretty good push. don't you? were they given eviction papers? no. but neither were the pals.

I would call pogroms pushing.

Most pals were not moved by force. Most were moved voluntarily because of complying with the grand mufti's request.

Not true. Many fled because their villages were attacked, neighboring villages were attacked or the IDF evicted them. Some fled because they were told to by the local Arab authorities but not most. So, I would say they were moved by force.

it may be a small portion of pals who are doing the actual firing of missiles, but the rest are being ill used as human shields. that isn't israel's fault. and no other country would be asked to tolerate it.

The rest of them are stuck there and it's debatable how much they are deliberately being used as human sheilds - which they are (something the Israeli's also did with them) or whether the density of urban areas makes it impossible to avoid it.

There has also been provocation by Israel and a doctrine of collective punishment for the actions of a few- Israel isn't a total innocent in this.

when WWII was fought, entire cities were flattened because it was strategically necessary. No one said "boo". And from where I sit, people only say "boo" now for one reason.

For one reason? Oh come on - you aren't pulling the anti-semitism card? Don't you think there is a considerable difference between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and WW2????

ultimately, it does come down to what would be done if a bunch of terrorists were lobbing missiles into texas or cali from mexico.

There is no similarity of history between Mexico/US to make that kind of comparison.

like i said... i'm pretty sure the response would be quick and pretty complete... even if the entire city of Tiajuana went buh bye.

Again - apples and oranges.

I'm pretty sure Israel wasn't ever supposed to survive. The arabs were given all of the high ground, defensible positions and fortresses. They were armed by the soviets while the US and britain wouldn't give arms to the Jews.

The problems don't come from pals being displaced. The problems come from jews not dying like they were supposed to.

Actually, some would argue that the Israeli's problem is that the Palestinians aren't dying like they are supposed to...

 

[Coyote]

Come on, Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine.

Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.

Oh wait... they were all absorbed by the US after the war and today have the same rights as any other american citizen.

Maybe this is the difference between a REAL liberal democracy like America and a Jewish Racial Dictatorship like Israel?

 

[Dr Grump]

Come on, Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine.

Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.

Oh wait... they were all absorbed by the US after the war and today have the same rights as any other american citizen.

Maybe this is the difference between a REAL liberal democracy like America and a Jewish Racial Dictatorship like Israel?

If you're gonna join the debate, bring something of substance. Ranting is not substance...

 

[elvis]

Come on, Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine.

Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.

Oh wait... they were all absorbed by the US after the war and today have the same rights as any other american citizen.

Maybe this is the difference between a REAL liberal democracy like America and a Jewish Racial Dictatorship like Israel?

If you're gonna join the debate, bring something of substance. Ranting is not substance...

He lost one of his stars. did you notice?

 

[al Haq]

Another example of the mentality of some of our resident Zionists, this time from GHook93:

Israel / Palestine... 01-19-2010 01:37 PM GHook93 Sand N#gger!

The ability to launch sweeping accusations of "anti-semitism" against anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology (such as the one proclaimed in his signature) while simultaneously exhibiting the most extreme bigotry against people who are without question Semites - this is a trademark of the Zionist psychosis.

 

[al Haq]

... Israel’s hegemony in the Middle East...

Dummy, most people in the Middle East fear Iran's hegemony. Israel is not even on the map.

Israel is just 8,000 square miles in size, dummy, about the size of Vermont, one of the smallest states in the United States. The Arab and Muslim shitholes in the Middle East encompass 9,000,000 square miles.

IRan is 640,000 square miles.

Who, again, is a hegemony, dummy?

You need to get a better dictionary. Hegemony has nothing to do with size; it's all about power.

Israel is recognized around the world as The Only Superpower in the Middle East, equipped with the most technologically advanced military weapons that American tax money can buy. It's bristling with an arsenal of nukes, and perennially shielded from international sanctions for its appalling behavior by its BFF, the U.S. government.

The Israeli government is terrified of the possibility that any other country in the region might be able to challenge its singular, overwhelming advantage -- because then Israel might not be able to bully its neighbors around and appropriate their territory any more, but instead have to learn to get along with them. A frightening idea, indeed.

 

[José]

Another example of the mentality of some of our resident Zionists, this time from GHook93:

Israel / Palestine... 01-19-2010 01:37 PM GHook93 Sand N#gger!

The ability to launch sweeping accusations of "anti-semitism" against anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology (such as the one proclaimed in his signature) while simultaneously exhibiting the most extreme bigotry against people who are without question Semites - this is a trademark of the Zionist psychosis.

LOL

Welcome to the wonderful world of Ghook's comments, Haq. If I got a dollar for everytime he called me a "fucking ****" I'd be a millionaire.

Ghook needed a strong father figure in his younger years to straighten him out. A strict daddy who wouldn't be afraid to beat the crap outta him:

"Little Hook, I'm gonna make a decent Jew out of you even if I have to cut off more than your foreskin to do it."

 

[José]

Come on, Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine.

Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.

Oh wait... they were all absorbed by the US after the war and today have the same rights as any other american citizen.

Maybe this is the difference between a REAL liberal democracy like America and a Jewish Racial Dictatorship like Israel?

I've read enough of your posts to realize your cursory knowledge of politics prevents you from understanding the difference between a democracy like the US and an ethnocracy like Israel.

Probably had never heard the term "ethnocracy" before in your whole life just like all the other political science illiterates of this Board.