Israel / Palestine Peace Plan

[Dr Grump]

I'll look at the wiki link. But even if that were the case, what other nation is asked to make it's concessions BEFORE negotiations?

Oslo wasn't a bad deal at all. How could 98 percent of what they wanted be a bad deal? The fact that his "people" didn't want it should tell you something. Rabin died for his willingness to make that deal. Whether it was a perfect deal from either perspective...it wasn't... but I've always been told that any good resolution leaves both parties a little ticked off.

Blame? Maybe... I certainly didn't agree with some of the things Sharon did when he was in charge. But if you look at the percentages of pals who want a two-state solution and who are willing to make peace, you'll find that isn't what they want. Did the PA ever remove it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter?

and, no, they weren't "always there"... they were mostly bedouin. and they were part of transjordan. like is said, i'm not at the border of belarus demanding my ancestral property back... my family was always there.

No, those were not concessions before negotiations, that was part of the original deal.

I think what you are missing the point re Oslo, it doesn't matter whether it was 98 or 100 percent, the Israelis were never going to agree to the deal anyway. It reads like the right of return and East Jerusalem were put in there on purpose because they knew the Pals wold not accept it for those two reasons alone....

That is untrue Jillian with regard to them being Bedouin...they have had villages their villages there for centuries.

The Belurus analogy is being disingenuous because both you and I know that the reason the Jewish people were offered Israel was because it was their ancestral homeland before the diaspora, so you could trace your ancestors back there. Ditto the Pals and Palestine (the name came from the Philistines, who as you know, have been there since Adam, too).

Let's not forget that the Jews and Arabs are the same people separated by a religion....they are both Sematic...

 

[Dr Grump]

Why should Israel trust anything the PA says when their leader is straight from Hamas?

Why should the Pals trust the Israelis, who never intended to keep their word with Oslo?

why would you say that when arafat is the one who wouldn't sign the deal?

israel has kept to its treaties with Egypt, Jordan, Syria... and Lebanon (except for defending itself from Hezbollah since Lebanon couldn't control them) why would you say that?

Egypt was land for peace, Jordan are weak as fuck. What treaty with Syria? Their proxies in Hizbollah are still causing Israel grief and they want the Golan Heights back...

As for Arafat see my last. Read the book Jillian...I'm not about to print out 50 pages of type...

 

[elvis]

I'll look at the wiki link. But even if that were the case, what other nation is asked to make it's concessions BEFORE negotiations?

Oslo wasn't a bad deal at all. How could 98 percent of what they wanted be a bad deal? The fact that his "people" didn't want it should tell you something. Rabin died for his willingness to make that deal. Whether it was a perfect deal from either perspective...it wasn't... but I've always been told that any good resolution leaves both parties a little ticked off.

Blame? Maybe... I certainly didn't agree with some of the things Sharon did when he was in charge. But if you look at the percentages of pals who want a two-state solution and who are willing to make peace, you'll find that isn't what they want. Did the PA ever remove it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter?

and, no, they weren't "always there"... they were mostly bedouin. and they were part of transjordan. like is said, i'm not at the border of belarus demanding my ancestral property back... my family was always there.

No, those were not concessions before negotiations, that was part of the original deal.

I think what you are missing the point re Oslo, it doesn't matter whether it was 98 or 100 percent, the Israelis were never going to agree to the deal anyway. It reads like the right of return and East Jerusalem were put in there on purpose because they knew the Pals wold not accept it for those two reasons alone....

That is untrue Jillian with regard to them being Bedouin...they have had villages there were there for centuries.

The Belurus analogy is being disingenuous because both you and I know that the reason the Jewish people were offered Israel was because it was their ancestral homeland before the diaspora, so you could trace your ancestors back there. Ditto the Pals and Palestine (the name came from the Philistines, who as you know, have been there since Adam, too).

Let's not forget that the Jews and Arabs are the same people separated by a religion....they are both Sematic...

do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?

 

[Dr Grump]

Why should Israel trust anything the PA says when their leader is straight from Hamas?

Why should the Pals trust the Israelis, who never intended to keep their word with Oslo?

so because a treaty may have been violated, the palis should be allowed to blow Israelis to pieces and attempt to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean? That is, after all, the goal of Hamas.

Look, I will never defend Hamas or Hizbollah, and while they exist, the chances of peace are remote.

I just think if the Israelis got rid of ALL their settlements on the WB and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians have them, then there are no more excuses. At present one faction runs Gaza, the other the WB...

I have no time for Islam or Hamas/Hizbollah, but neither do I for hte Jewish settlers on the WB..

 

[Dr Grump]

do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?

No, I mean both have lived in the area since Adam...and they seem to hate each other's guts

 

[jillian]

No, those were not concessions before negotiations, that was part of the original deal.

I think what you are missing the point re Oslo, it doesn't matter whether it was 98 or 100 percent, the Israelis were never going to agree to the deal anyway. It reads like the right of return and East Jerusalem were put in there on purpose because they knew the Pals wold not accept it for those two reasons alone....

That is untrue Jillian with regard to them being Bedouin...they have had villages their villages there for centuries.

The Belurus analogy is being disingenuous because both you and I know that the reason the Jewish people were offered Israel was because it was their ancestral homeland before the diaspora, so you could trace your ancestors back there. Ditto the Pals and Palestine (the name came from the Philistines, who as you know, have been there since Adam, too).

Let's not forget that the Jews and Arabs are the same people separated by a religion....they are both Sematic...

part of the original deal was also the PA removing it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter.

i said MOSTLY bedouin. Either way, they left when the Grand Mufti told them to so the jews could be thrown into the sea.

The Jews were always in Israel. There were just more of them after the diaspora. The name the pals TOOK came from Philistines...

and the whole "semetic" thing... you KNOW that isn't what the word is used to refer to.

I've always said that the israeli/arab thing is the worst case of sibling rivalry in history.

but again, none of that is here nor there. to make a resolution, the pals have to want one. they don't... or they wouldn't have used their obtaining the gaza as a reason to start lobbing missiles into israel.

to reach a deal, they have to actually stop talking about the history...they just have to make a deal.

who do you think is more willing to do that? and who do you think will have more unreasonble demands made of them.

it's like i pointed out the other day, when the crusaders took jerusalem, they put a church over the holy of holies... then when the arabs won it back from the crusaders, they put a mosque over it...

it's only the jews who haven't been allowed to exercise dominion over their OWN holy site.

and, to be fair, if a group in mexico were lobbing misiles into california and demanding their land back, they'd be flattened, and no one in the world would say boo.

 

[Dr Grump]

part of the original deal was also the PA removing it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter.

i said MOSTLY bedouin. Either way, they left when the Grand Mufti told them to so the jews could be thrown into the sea.

The Jews were always in Israel. There were just more of them after the diaspora. The name the pals TOOK came from Philistines...

and the whole "semetic" thing... you KNOW that isn't what the word is used to refer to.

I've always said that the israeli/arab thing is the worst case of sibling rivalry in history.

but again, none of that is here nor there. to make a resolution, the pals have to want one. they don't... or they wouldn't have used their obtaining the gaza as a reason to start lobbing missiles into israel.

to reach a deal, they have to actually stop talking about the history...they just have to make a deal.

who do you think is more willing to do that? and who do you think will have more unreasonble demands made of them.

it's like i pointed out the other day, when the crusaders took jerusalem, they put a church over the holy of holies... then when the arabs won it back from the crusaders, they put a mosque over it...

it's only the jews who haven't been allowed to exercise dominion over their OWN holy site.

and, to be fair, if a group in mexico were lobbing misiles into california and demanding their land back, they'd be flattened, and no one in the world would say boo.

I'm pretty sure the Pals have removed that from their charter..their main problem is they are splintering into little groups.

I know that's where the name came from, just because that is where they got the name from doesn't mean they weren't always there..

I agree with lobbing missiles, but I also believe the IDF shouldn't shoot people who are throwing rocks at them...

I hear you re the holy site, and I don't disagree....but maybe the whole site should be flattened and some sort of museum giving the history of all three religions should be put in its place.

Laters

 

[jillian]

do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?

No, I mean both have lived in the area since Adam...and they seem to hate each other's guts

you know, interestingly, my son's school has a huge arab population. and he always says that THEY are the most like the jews and asked me why jews and arabs have such problems. that's when i told him it was sibling rivalry.

but here in ny, jews and arabs seem to get along fine. it's the whole "inheritance" thing... goes back to isaac and ishmael.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK Sgt.
I'll take that as a conditional yes vote.
Not all Muslims or Arabs kill Jews on a daily bases because
murder is against our common 10 commandments.

Hi PFT,

You ask a good question.
I'm from Canada and never heard of the place but
I did a search.

If you look at the original UN partition map and
the map that Mr. Arafat almost agreed to Najd is near Rammala
and would be in the State of Palestine.

I learned the original owners were forced to leave
and the whole town was leveled and a new city was built in it's place.

In my opinion the Israel / Palestine currency would do well on world currency markets
after there is a signed peace agreement and the country could afford to pay reparations
to all those who were victims of war.

I'm not sure if the new city built on the ashes is an Israeli settlement.
May you know the history and can inform me.

Israeli Hebrew settlements in either of the Provinces of the State of Palestine
would only vote in the State of Israel elections.

All cities call have Hebrew and Arabic names so the name Najd could be used again.

I also learned there is a city iin Saudia Arabia with the same Najd.
They have a unique dialect of Arabic.

If a tribe or people have a unique language it would be protected at the city or municipal level.
The North American so called Indians have language protection at their municipal (reserve) level and are equal citizens of the USA federation from coast to coast. That is why they stopped derailing trains and burning stuff down.
In my opinion the Indians would still be terrorists today if they were not included as equals citizens of the USA and Canadian Federations.

Please let me know if I answered your question.

Thanks, Terry

The reason I used Najd as an example is because everyone has heard of it but by another name.

On 13 May, 1948, Najd was occupied by Jewish soldiers from the Negev Brigade as part of Operation Barak.[5] The inhabitants were expelled and fled to Gaza, and the village was then completely destroyed and leveled to the ground. In 1951, the town of Sderot was built over the village lands.

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The indigenous population had a long history in their village.

Under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, in 1596, Najd formed part nahiya (subdistrict) of Gaza under the liwa' (district) of Gaza with a population of 215. It paid taxes on a number of crops, including wheat, barley and fruit, as well as on goats, beehives and vineyards.[6]

Edward Robinson, who travelled through Palestine in 1838, noted that Najd lay south of a wadi, and described how the villagers were winnowing barley by throwing it into the air against the wind with wooden forks.[7]

In the late 19th century, Claude Conder writes that Najd was a small village with a well and a pond.[8]

As the population grew during the Mandate period, the village expanded northwestward. The village population was Muslim, and the children attended school in Simsim, 2 kilometers (1 mi) to the northeast. The villagers worked primarily in agriculture and animal husbandry. Fields of grain and fruit trees surrounded Najd on all sides. The fruit trees were concentrated to the north and northeastern sides, where irrigation water was available from wells.[9]

Cultivated lands in the village in 1944-45 included a total of 10 dunums allocated for citrus and bananas and 11,916 dunums for cereals. An additional 511 dunums were irrigated or used for orchards. The population at this time was 620.[9][10]

The village and its history came to the world's attention from 2002 onwards, as several Qassam-rockets were fired from the Gaza strip, with the aim of hitting Sderot and other Israeli towns, from where the Palestinians had once been expelled.[12]

Paul

 

[The Rabbi]

Why should the Pals trust the Israelis, who never intended to keep their word with Oslo?

so because a treaty may have been violated, the palis should be allowed to blow Israelis to pieces and attempt to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean? That is, after all, the goal of Hamas.

Look, I will never defend Hamas or Hizbollah, and while they exist, the chances of peace are remote.

I just think if the Israelis got rid of ALL their settlements on the WB and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians have them, then there are no more excuses. At present one faction runs Gaza, the other the WB...

I have no time for Islam or Hamas/Hizbollah, but neither do I for hte Jewish settlers on the WB..

You obviously don't get it. There are always excuses. If the Palis get the west bank, then they want E.Jerusalem too. If they get EJ, then they want Jaffa. If they get Jaffa, then they want Tel Aviv.
You are dealing with people who have been told since infancy that all their problems come from the Jews. Get rid of the Jews and your problems are over. Their leadership must maintain this fiction to cover over their own kleptocracy and incompetence. So there is always another demand over the horizon. There is no negotiating with people like that.

 

[The Rabbi]

do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?

No, I mean both have lived in the area since Adam...and they seem to hate each other's guts

you know, interestingly, my son's school has a huge arab population. and he always says that THEY are the most like the jews and asked me why jews and arabs have such problems. that's when i told him it was sibling rivalry.

but here in ny, jews and arabs seem to get along fine. it's the whole "inheritance" thing... goes back to isaac and ishmael.

I run into Arabs very often in business and I never have a problem with them. In discussions it is amazing how similar the two religions are, sometimes using the same metaphors to describe legal concepts. Traditionally, like under the Ottomans, the Jews did very well, better than under the Christians in Europe. It is a darn shame, but something I lay at the feet of the Zionists.

 

[P F Tinmore]

so because a treaty may have been violated, the palis should be allowed to blow Israelis to pieces and attempt to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean? That is, after all, the goal of Hamas.

Look, I will never defend Hamas or Hizbollah, and while they exist, the chances of peace are remote.

I just think if the Israelis got rid of ALL their settlements on the WB and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians have them, then there are no more excuses. At present one faction runs Gaza, the other the WB...

I have no time for Islam or Hamas/Hizbollah, but neither do I for hte Jewish settlers on the WB..

You obviously don't get it. There are always excuses. If the Palis get the west bank, then they want E.Jerusalem too. If they get EJ, then they want Jaffa. If they get Jaffa, then they want Tel Aviv.
You are dealing with people who have been told since infancy that all their problems come from the Jews. Get rid of the Jews and your problems are over. Their leadership must maintain this fiction to cover over their own kleptocracy and incompetence. So there is always another demand over the horizon. There is no negotiating with people like that.

Before Israel the indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews live in peace in Palestine. With Israel there has been nothing but death and destruction. Even today they all live together in peace in Palestine.

What is complicated here?

 

[P F Tinmore]

the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.

They were offered less than one per cent of the land....as i said a while ago, reading a book called The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. The Israelis never had any intention of withdrawing from the WB or stopping settlements...

Oslo was a mere re-branding of the occupation. It was to outsource the occupation to the puppet PLO. Israel would control the water. They would control who could come and who could leave. They would control imports and exports.

 

[The Rabbi]

Look, I will never defend Hamas or Hizbollah, and while they exist, the chances of peace are remote.

I just think if the Israelis got rid of ALL their settlements on the WB and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians have them, then there are no more excuses. At present one faction runs Gaza, the other the WB...

I have no time for Islam or Hamas/Hizbollah, but neither do I for hte Jewish settlers on the WB..

You obviously don't get it. There are always excuses. If the Palis get the west bank, then they want E.Jerusalem too. If they get EJ, then they want Jaffa. If they get Jaffa, then they want Tel Aviv.
You are dealing with people who have been told since infancy that all their problems come from the Jews. Get rid of the Jews and your problems are over. Their leadership must maintain this fiction to cover over their own kleptocracy and incompetence. So there is always another demand over the horizon. There is no negotiating with people like that.

Before Israel the indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews live in peace in Palestine.

Except if you want to mention the Hebron massacres in the 1920s.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You obviously don't get it. There are always excuses. If the Palis get the west bank, then they want E.Jerusalem too. If they get EJ, then they want Jaffa. If they get Jaffa, then they want Tel Aviv.
You are dealing with people who have been told since infancy that all their problems come from the Jews. Get rid of the Jews and your problems are over. Their leadership must maintain this fiction to cover over their own kleptocracy and incompetence. So there is always another demand over the horizon. There is no negotiating with people like that.

Before Israel the indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews live in peace in Palestine.

Except if you want to mention the Hebron massacres in the 1920s.

Yeah. Why did that happen?

History tells us that the Muslims and Jews lived together in peace in Hebron for hundreds of years. The focus of the attacks were against the "new Jews" the one who came to take over Palestine. Of course some of this hatred spilled over to the indigenous Jews.

Edward Robbin, who went to Hebron three weeks later "with a convoy of refugees returning to their homes to bring the remnants of their possessions to Jerusalem," describes meeting a woman whom we recognize as Imm Mahmoud. "Opposite the Slonim house in front of what had been a hotel, a crowd of Jews had gathered about an Arab woman. To each one that approached they repeated the story of how she had saved twenty-three [sic] people by bringing them into her house. People looked at the thin worn face of the Arab woman with awe.” The Menorah Journal, XVII, 3 (December 1929), p.304.

http://hebron1929.info/Hebronletter.pdf

 

[The Rabbi]

Says the man who doesnt believe Israel exists.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Says the man who doesnt believe Israel exists.

Israel has political recognition but has no legal standing.

 

[The Rabbi]

Says the man who doesnt believe Israel exists.

Israel has political recognition but has no legal standing.

Says the man who believes murdering women and children is dandy.

 

[eots]

I say we roll back the hands of time a half century and give the Jews half of Utah as a homeland and let them fight it out with the Mormons...if I was king of the world

 

[P F Tinmore]

Says the man who doesnt believe Israel exists.

Israel has political recognition but has no legal standing.

Says the man who believes murdering women and children is dandy.

You keep pulling stuff out of your hat.