Israel on alert....

[Larkinn]

Pressure from whom? The arab countries that fund the terrorists?

That only supports my point that they are condemning the Palestinians and not the Israelis.

Us? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you're a Palestinian terrorist. Interesting you'd have that affiliation.

You read it incorrectly, and purposefully misinterpreted what I was doing. Obviously I was speaking as if I was someone else, however I was speaking as if I was an Israeli and I was showing the absurdity of blaming the victim for being killed.

Israel should act differently? What about the pals?

How many times would you like me to condemn them? I've done it already in this thread.

Of course they did... but they don't want peace.

This is an asinine argument. Yes, they do want peace. You think they like having the Israeli government come into their land with tanks and bombs and the like? They just aren't willing to accept peace on Israels terms.

I'm not saying that the PA wasn't a corrupt organization. Yes, Suha took a lot of foreign aid and put it into her french bank accounts. But at some point, they had to make a decision... peace? two autonomous states? or continue to teach their kids to blow themselves up.

And please tell me who they should have voted for if they wanted peace. Please tell me if you were a Palestinian who wanted peace, as many of them do, what you would do.

Personally, I think they made their decision with lovely things like:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55582

That was Hamas. Did you make a decision to invade Iraq? No? Please don't blame the people on what the government does, especially when their choices were between Fatah and Hamas.

The innocents shelter terrorists.

That one month old baby who died in the recent raids had a series of houses that terrorists owned, didn't she. And if you want to play the "well the innocents shelter terrorists, therefore we can kill them" game, well all Israelis are soldiers and therefore the Palestinians can kill them. Its funny that when one side kills innocents its "collateral damage" and when the other side killes innocents its "terrorism".

And I'd feel a lot worse for them if I didn't constantly hear from my side of the aisle that my people should go die because they offend the Arabs.

I think generally they want your people to die because your people have been supressing them for quite some time now.

And, for the record... just so you know. I try to be objective on this subject. I do.

You aren't. I think you've called me antisemitic on the past which is pretty much the stupidest charge ever. I dislike religion in general, but I'm actually rather fond of Judaism and at one time I had a decent understanding of the practices because I dated a Jewish girl for 2 years. That Israel is Jewish is of no consequence to me. I'm not a fan of Israel, not because I give a shit about their religion, but because I don't like their human rights practices.

and a series of Israeli leaders who would have made a deal for two autonomous states any time... but the pals don't want two autonomous states.

Actually they want many different things. But generally the deals they've been offered have been pretty unfavorable to them. They are willing to settle for not owning Israel, but they don't want to be locked out of it forever. Remember that many of them have family there, 50 years is not so long as to lose all connections to a place.

And the continued effort on the part of certain people to paint the pals as victimized and not assigning them any responsibility for their situation is incredibly offensive to me.

Its rather hard to blame a people who are in as shitty a situation as they are.

Well, maybe they shouldn't blow themselves up just to kill jews in the first place.

Hmm, actually I recall that they weren't autonomous in "the first place" and Israel controlled them after the war with Jordan.

And maybe they should talk peace and remove the destruction of Israel as part of their agenda?

Fatah didn't have destruction if Israel as part of their agenda. Didn't work that well, did it.

Or should Israel just not respond and die like good jews are supposed to when missiles get fired at its citizens?

Again, I try to be as objective as I can about this. I might not always succeed.

You think? See the above quote.

Obviously, I have a horse in the race. I don't want my family killed by animals when we're there, you know? (And by animals, I don't mean all pals, I mean terrorists, lest you think otherwise).

I really don't see how you can think one is collateral action and one is terrorism. Perhaps you should go and visit Palestine and see if you have a different view of Israel while ducking Israeli bombs. Its not only one side of this that is effected.

 

[Larkinn]

The difference being, of course, that Jews drop pamphlets and do their best to avoid killing innocents.

Haha...right. The Israeli military is one of the best in the world. For someone who is so well trained, why do they kill so many children?

THey don't hunt them down, or sneak into their dormitories SPECIFICALLY to target them.

Oh, well that makes them less dead.

Nor do they cheer in the streets when there's news of Palestinian children being killed.

No, they only chant "death to arabs" as Orthodox Jews did recently.

 

[jillian]

Haha...right. The Israeli military is one of the best in the world. For someone who is so well trained, why do they kill so many children?

Because terrorists hide behind women and children, just like Hezbollah did in Lebanon.

Oh, well that makes them less dead.

No. It doesn't. But there is a difference in a) policy; and b) culpability.

No, they only chant "death to arabs" as Orthodox Jews did recently.

All orthodox Jews? Or the radicals who are still insisting on settlements? I don't think anyone says there are no Israeli radicals... the difference, however, lies in how the pals and the Israelis HANDLE their radicals.

 

[Larkinn]

Because terrorists hide behind women and children, just like Hezbollah did in Lebanon.

And the Israelis, instead of backing off, kill them.

No. It doesn't. But there is a difference in a) policy; and b) culpability.

a) Yes.
b) No.

All orthodox Jews?

Oh, well if I'm talking about Jewish atrocities or misdeeds you question if its all of them or just the extremists. But when its Palestinians you can make gross generalizations about them, and its all gravy.

Or the radicals who are still insisting on settlements? I don't think anyone says there are no Israeli radicals... the difference, however, lies in how the pals and the Israelis HANDLE their radicals.

Really? How do the Israelis handle their radicals?

 

[jillian]

That only supports my point that they are condemning the Palestinians and not the Israelis.

And? Again, they HAVEN'T condemned them yet. But I'm hopeful.

You read it incorrectly, and purposefully misinterpreted what I was doing. Obviously I was speaking as if I was someone else, however I was speaking as if I was an Israeli and I was showing the absurdity of blaming the victim for being killed.

There are times when we're responsible for our own actions. And hiding terrorists and allowing missiles to be fired from your land is probably a bit different from sitting at an outdoor cafe and having lunch or going to a sedar on Passover, no?

How many times would you like me to condemn them? I've done it already in this thread.

Had you condemned them? I must have missed it in all the ways you blamed Israel for defending itself.

This is an asinine argument. Yes, they do want peace. You think they like having the Israeli government come into their land with tanks and bombs and the like? They just aren't willing to accept peace on Israels terms.

You mean terms that allow Israel to continue to exist as an autonomous Jewish State with defensible borders?

And please tell me who they should have voted for if they wanted peace. Please tell me if you were a Palestinian who wanted peace, as many of them do, what you would do.

They should have stuck with Abbas. He wasn't perfect but he could talk to the Israelis. And they should be pressuring their "leaders" to make peace. Do you see them protesting continued terrorism? Or do you see them putting terrorist mice on TV to train their kids to blow themselves up? Where does THEIR responsibility lie?

That was Hamas. Did you make a decision to invade Iraq? No? Please don't blame the people on what the government does, especially when their choices were between Fatah and Hamas.

The people are the ones who hide the terrorists. Palestinians used to point to Hamas and say "but they aren't the government, so don't blame us for what they do". Now you want to justify them sayng "but Hamas is the government, don't blame us for what they do".

That one month old baby who died in the recent raids had a series of houses that terrorists owned, didn't she. And if you want to play the "well the innocents shelter terrorists, therefore we can kill them" game, well all Israelis are soldiers and therefore the Palestinians can kill them. Its funny that when one side kills innocents its "collateral damage" and when the other side killes innocents its "terrorism".

What a bunch of garbage... 1) Israeli soldiers don't wake up in the morning and say "gee, how many innocent palestinians can we blow up today". You're trying to defend the indefensible. Again, when do Jews get to defend themselves?

I think generally they want your people to die because your people have been supressing them for quite some time now.

Suppressing them? They suppress themselves? Instead of killing jews, they should have agreed to half of the mandate. They didn't and they've spent the following 60 years trying to get a do-over.

You aren't. I think you've called me antisemitic on the past which is pretty much the stupidest charge ever. I dislike religion in general, but I'm actually rather fond of Judaism and at one time I had a decent understanding of the practices because I dated a Jewish girl for 2 years. That Israel is Jewish is of no consequence to me. I'm not a fan of Israel, not because I give a shit about their religion, but because I don't like their human rights practices.

I never called you an anti-semite. I never even called Shogie an anti-semite until he started calling me a nazi and using nazi allusions when discussing Israel... which really IS the stupidest thing ever.

Guess what... countries do some not nice things when they're defending themselves. Maybe Arafat should have negotiated in good faith instead ofsaying he couldnt' sign the peace deal or he'd "be drinking tea with Rabin". How many times was Israel supposed to let itself get attacked.

Now, there is no question that the whole thing started badly. But that was 60 years ago. It's time for your pals to accept the fact that they will NEVER, EVER, EVER, drive Israel to the sea. Time for them to suck it up and agree to a deal....

They aren't exactly in the drivers' seat. They have no standing... same as I don't get to demand the return of teh land my grandparents had to leave. Thats life....

Actually they want many different things. But generally the deals they've been offered have been pretty unfavorable to them. They are willing to settle for not owning Israel, but they don't want to be locked out of it forever. Remember that many of them have family there, 50 years is not so long as to lose all connections to a place.

Cool... do I get my great grandfather's land in Belarus?

Tough... seriously... they lost.... they're locked out. It's a jewish country. It will never ever be an Arab country. Israel certainly isn't going to agree to suicide. The fact that you don't see anything wrong with asking them to is really sad.

Its rather hard to blame a people who are in as shitty a situation as they are.

They're responsible for their own situation as they're the ones who wanted the jews in the sea. They lost. Now they're whining that the rest of the world should get it back for them. It seems to have suckered certain types of people, whether willingly or not.

Hmm, actually I recall that they weren't autonomous in "the first place" and Israel controlled them after the war with Jordan.

And Jordan didn't take them in because???

Fatah didn't have destruction if Israel as part of their agenda. Didn't work that well, did it.

That's a lie. It was one of the things Arafat agreed to remove from the charter and then didn't.

I really don't see how you can think one is collateral action and one is terrorism. Perhaps you should go and visit Palestine and see if you have a different view of Israel while ducking Israeli bombs. Its not only one side of this that is effected.

I've been... have you? Perhaps *you* should go to Israel.

 

[jillian]

And the Israelis, instead of backing off, kill them.

Damn right... why should Israel back off and allow itself to be victimized? Oh right... it's only the poor pals who are victimized.

Oh, well if I'm talking about Jewish atrocities or misdeeds you question if its all of them or just the extremists. But when its Palestinians you can make gross generalizations about them, and its all gravy.

You think you can compare the country that elected terrorists to lead it with the country whose government drags its people kicking and screaming from settlements because it's trying to make things better?

lol...

Really? How do the Israelis handle their radicals?

See above... they sure as heck don't run the government.

 

[Gunny]

um, how many pal civilians did the israeli military kill in "retaliation" in Gaza recently? i thoroughly condemn what happened to this jewish school but I don't recall seeing you make the slightest fucking effort in condemning 120+ pal civilian deaths so maybe it's a little soon to start beating that same ole drum?


Hell, the actions of this one man from one radical group probably reflects the killer nature of every other pal outside the wall, eh Jill? Whats the going rate for one dead jew these days? 15 pal lives? After all, it's "defense" when israel does it, right?

Israel doesn't TARGET noncombatants. Motive means everything.

 

[Gunny]

Shogie, of course, thinks Israel should be in Texas.


The point being that if it were it would be TEXANS out killing jews instead of pals.


didn't mean to get too logical on ya, dearest Jill.


Still not trying to give condolences to 120+ dead pal civilians I see. They must not have been as human as 8 jewish kids..

Really? You'd be surprised. I'd be more than willing to give up West Texas to the Jews if it would provide them a place to live without every man, woman and child being a target of hate-filled scumbag terrorists every single day of their lives.

However, it would kill two birds with one stone to tell them they could have California if they could take it.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Shogun
I hold much the same position. I don't hate israel at all.

Of course you don't.

But you're having a great time in America, buddy.

You and I sympathize with the palestinian people but we are NOT the ones being kept in an arab corral by a racist dictatorship.

This goes a long way to explain the absence of hate towards Israel in so many people in the West.

 

[José]

Originally Posted by Ravir
I guess I should come clean. I support Israel as our ally but I think they often act badly.

You support a country racist to the bone that leads the arab youth to practice building demolition in America and plan to nuke western cities.

With "allies" like Israel and "patriots" like you America doesn't even need Bin Laden.

 

[jillian]

You support a country racist to the bone that leads the arab youth to practice building demolition in America and plan to nuke western cities.

With "allies" like Israel and "patriots" like you America doesn't even need Bin Laden.

But the arab countries aren't racist, eh?

Forced??? You mean like Hitler was forced to build crematoriums for the bad jews.... ???? Or you're "forced" to rape a woman who won't have sex with you??

what stupidity.

 

[AllieBaba]

Haha...right. The Israeli military is one of the best in the world. For someone who is so well trained, why do they kill so many children?



Oh, well that makes them less dead.



No, they only chant "death to arabs" as Orthodox Jews did recently.

They kill children because the pigs who attack them surround themselves with children, and hide in areas where they know there are children.

And motive does matter. If you can't see the difference between a man who joyfully and purposefully makes a decision to kill children INSTEAD of adult fighters, and a man who kills children after warnings have been posted warning of a deadly attack in the hopes that children will be removed from the area, then you have bigger problems than can be dealt with here. It's not all about numbers. It's about motive, and purpose, and the acknowledgement that evil exists and not everyone is evil just because they fight.

 

[Shogun]

Actually, the fact that Israel retaliates for the murder of its civilians who were targeted by terrorist animals, and, in turn, go after those terrorists, has never kept the UN from condemning Israel. If the Pals don't want collateral damage, maybe they shouldn't hide terrorists among them and allow missiles to be fired from their property?? And maybe they shouldn't elect terrorist organizations to lead them?

But the poor widdle Palestinians.....

The parents of the kids murdered at the Seminary School might feel a bit differently.

oh I KNOW... 120 dead pals probably ARE equivilent to 8 dead jews.


duh.

 

[Shogun]

The difference being, of course, that Jews drop pamphlets and do their best to avoid killing innocents. THey don't hunt them down, or sneak into their dormitories SPECIFICALLY to target them.

Nor do they cheer in the streets when there's news of Palestinian children being killed.

oh I KNOW... a military action parsing BULLETS against ROCKS says the very same thing!

 

[Shogun]

Israel doesn't TARGET noncombatants. Motive means everything.

yea.. we learned that lesson in LEBANON a couple years ago, didn't we?


cluster bombs in civilian populations... yea.. thats just a lie perpetuated by evil arabs.





thank god being "chosen" means impervious to racism... I'd hate to think that jews are just as able to act on racist emotions like the rest of us. That halo you polish must be awfully shiny by now.


Hell, it's probably also true that that underground railroad was just a terrorist front to steal property from poor souther cotton farmers that just wanted to get a good days work done.

 

[Shogun]

Really? You'd be surprised. I'd be more than willing to give up West Texas to the Jews if it would provide them a place to live without every man, woman and child being a target of hate-filled scumbag terrorists every single day of their lives.

However, it would kill two birds with one stone to tell them they could have California if they could take it.

When you get more Texans on board then let me know. In fact, be my guest and pass the idea around your texas town and see what the reaction looks like.


and, considering which state gave us the current fubar whitehouse, I think we'll stick with giving away your state.

 

[Shogun]

But the arab countries aren't racist, eh?

Forced??? You mean like Hitler was forced to build crematoriums for the bad jews.... ???? Or you're "forced" to rape a woman who won't have sex with you??

what stupidity.

So, how do self-described "WESTERN NATIONS" all of a sudden compare to arab nations again? Oh, silly me.. because jews are allowed to vote for other jews israel is clearly just like the United States where... oh wait.. that's not true at all.

 

[Shogun]

They kill children because the pigs who attack them surround themselves with children, and hide in areas where they know there are children.

And motive does matter. If you can't see the difference between a man who joyfully and purposefully makes a decision to kill children INSTEAD of adult fighters, and a man who kills children after warnings have been posted warning of a deadly attack in the hopes that children will be removed from the area, then you have bigger problems than can be dealt with here. It's not all about numbers. It's about motive, and purpose, and the acknowledgement that evil exists and not everyone is evil just because they fight.

OH yea.. I KNOW.. when we see a criminal take children hostages here in the US the very FIRST thing on the fucking agenda is to blow the entire fucking building up and call it a day!


uh, motive, you know..