Israel And The “De-legitimization” Oxymoron

[P F Tinmore]

The question is: How can you de-legitimize something (in this case the Zionist state) which it is NOT legitimate?

The truth of the time was that Israel, which came into being mainly as a consequence of Zionist terrorism and pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist unless ….. Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

As it was put to me many years ago by Khalad al-Hassan, Fatah’s intellectual giant on the right, that legitimacy was “the only thing the Zionists could not take from us by force.”

The truth of history as summarised briefly above is the explanation of why, really, Zionism has always insisted that its absolute pre-condition for negotiations with more than a snowball’s chance in hell of a successful outcome (an acceptable measure of justice for the Palestinians and peace for all) is recognition of Israel’s right to exist. A right, it knows, it does not have and will never have unless the Palestinians grant it.

Israel And The

 

[JStone]

Exodus 34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

John 1:49 Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"

The adjective Palestinian is comparatively new. This, I need hardly remind you, is a region of ancient civilization and of deep-rooted and often complex identitites. But, Palestine was not one of them. People might identify themselves for various purposes, by religion, by descent, or by allegiance to a particular state or ruler, or, sometimes, locality. But, when they did it locally it was generally either the city and the immediate district or the larger province, so they would have been Jerusalemites or Jaffaites or Syrians, identifying with the larger province of Syria

The constitution or the formation of a political entity called Palestine which eventually gave rise to a nationality called Palestinian were lasting innovations of the British Mandate [1922-1948]

The countries forming the western arm of the Fertile Crescent were called by the names of the various kingdoms and peoples that ruled and inhabited them. Of these, the most familiar, or at least the best documented, are the southern lands, known in the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible and some other ancient writings as Canaan. After the Israelite conquest and settlement, the area inhabited by them came to be described as "land of the children of Israel" or simply "land of Israel" After the breakup of the kingdom of David and Solomon in the tenth century BCE, the southern part, with Jerusalem as its capital, was called Judah, while the north was called Israel

It is by now commonplace that the civilizations of the Middle East are oldest known to human history. They go back thousands of years, much older than the civilizations of India and China, not to speak of other upstart places. It is also interesting, though now often forgotten, that the ancient civilizations of the Middle East were almost totally obliterated and forgotten by their own people as well as by others. Their monuments were defaced or destroyed, their languages forgotten, their scripts forgotten, their history forgotten and even their identities forgotten.

All that was known about them came from one single source, and that is Israel, the only component of the ancient Middle East to have retained their identity, their memory, their language and their books. For a very long time, up to comparatively modern times, with rare exceptions all that was known about the ancient Middle East--the Babylonians, the Egyptians and the rest--was what the Jewish tradiiton has preserved.
Amazon.com: Political Words and Ideas in Islam (9781558764248): Bernard Lewis: Books

 

[JStone]

PBS: Civilization and the Jews

The interaction of Jewish history and Western civilization successively assumed different forms. In the Biblical and Ancient periods, Israel was an integral part of the Near Eastern and classical world, which gave birth to Western civilization. It shared the traditions of ancient Mesopotamia and the rest of that world with regard to it’s own beginning; it benefited from the decline of Egypt and the other great Near Eastern empires to emerge as a nation in it’s own right; it asserted it’s claim to the divinely promised Land of Israel
PBS - Heritage

Harvard University Semitic Museum: The Houses of Ancient Israel The Houses of Ancient Israel § Semitic Museum

In archaeological terms The Houses of Ancient Israel: Domestic, Royal, Divine focuses on the Iron Age (1200-586 B.C.E.). Iron I (1200-1000 B.C.E.) represents the premonarchical period. Iron II (1000-586 B.C.E.) was the time of kings. Uniting the tribal coalitions of Israel and Judah in the tenth century B.C.E., David and Solomon ruled over an expanding realm. After Solomon's death (c. 930 B.C.E.) Israel and Judah separated into two kingdoms.
Israel was led at times by strong kings, Omri and Ahab in the ninth century B.C.E. and Jereboam II in the eighth.

Harvard University Semitic Museum: Jerusalem During The Reign Of King Hezekiah--New Exhibition At The Semitic Museum Re-Creates Numerous Aspects Of Ancient Israel Harvard Gazette: Jerusalem during the reign of King Hezekiah

The Semitic Museum has installed a new exhibition that brings the world of biblical Israel into vivid, three-dimensional reality. "The Houses of Ancient Israel: Domestic, Royal, Divine" immerses the viewer in Israelite daily life around the time of King Hezekiah (8th century B.C.), creating an experiential environment based on the latest archaeological, textual, and historical research.

The centerpiece of the exhibition is a full-scale Israelite house, open on one side, filled with authentic ancient artifacts that show how life was lived by common inhabitants of ancient Jerusalem. Agricultural tools, a cooking area, and a stall occupied by a single, scruffy ram fill the ground floor of the cube-shaped, mud-brick structure, which, thankfully, is not olfactorily authentic. The upper story, reached by a ladder, is devoted to eating and sleeping.

Yale University Press: The Archaeology of Ancient Israel http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=0300059191

In this lavishly illustrated book some of Israel's foremost archaeologists present a thorough, up-to-date, and readily accessible survey of early life in the land of the Bible, from the Neolithic era (eighth millennium B.C.E.) to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. It will be a delightful and informative resource for anyone who has ever wanted to know more about the religious, scientific, or historical background of the region.

PBS Nova ...

In the banks of the Nile in southern Egypt in 1896, British archaeologisit Flinders Petrie unearthed one of the most important discoveries in biblical archaeology known as the Merneptah Stele. Merneptah's stele announces the entrance on the world stage of a People named Israel.

The Merneptah Stele is powerful evidence that a People called the Israelites are living in Canaan over 3000 years ago

Dr. Donald Redford, Egyptologist and archaeologist: The Merneptah Stele is priceless evidence for the presence of an ethnical group called Israel in Canaan.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvg2EZAEw5c]1/13 The Bible's Buried Secrets (NOVA PBS) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Hossfly]

The question is: How can you de-legitimize something (in this case the Zionist state) which it is NOT legitimate?

The truth of the time was that Israel, which came into being mainly as a consequence of Zionist terrorism and pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist unless ….. Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

As it was put to me many years ago by Khalad al-Hassan, Fatah’s intellectual giant on the right, that legitimacy was “the only thing the Zionists could not take from us by force.”

The truth of history as summarised briefly above is the explanation of why, really, Zionism has always insisted that its absolute pre-condition for negotiations with more than a snowball’s chance in hell of a successful outcome (an acceptable measure of justice for the Palestinians and peace for all) is recognition of Israel’s right to exist. A right, it knows, it does not have and will never have unless the Palestinians grant it.

Israel And The

Perhaps Tinny can tell us what makes the Hashemites the legitimate rulers of Jordan. Does he actually think that they should have been given 78% of the Palestinian Mandate just because they helped the British in World War I? How come he is having a problem with Israel being a state, but has no problem with the Hashemites (a tribe which was actually foreign to the area) ruling Jordan. By the way, I wonder if Tinny can give us a good reason why the UN said that anyone in the area for only two years could be considered a refugee. Does he really think that anyone living in that area for such a short time actually had land which was dispossessed? The Arabs who did have land and other assets stayed in Israel and are now citizens of Israel.

 

[JStone]

Dr. Jerold Auerbach, PhD and Master's degrees in History, Columbia University, Chairman of the History Department, Wellesley College

When the Arabs Themselves Denied There Was a Palestine

Newt Gingrich has been challenged for calling the Palestinians an “invented” people. He was accused by a spokesman for the American Task Force on Palestine of “deep historical ignorance and an irrational hostility toward Palestinian identity.” To Sabri Saidam, adviser to Palestinian Authority’s president, Mahmoud Abbas, Mr. Gingrich had displayed “extreme racism.” But the former speaker seems to know more about Palestinian history than his critics. Indeed, Palestinians have said the same thing about themselves for decades.

Testifying before the British Peel Commission in 1937, Syrian leader Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi asserted: “There is no such country as Palestine. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us.” Prominent Arab historian Philip Hitti conceded: “There is no such thing as Palestine, absolutely not.” According to Columbia history professor Rashid Khalidi, a student of Palestinian identity, “Palestine” did not even exist until it emerged from the wreckage of World War I.

Zahir Muhsein, PLO military commander and member of its executive committee, acknowledged: “There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation.” Identification of a Palestinian state, he conceded, was merely “a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.”

There is nothing new or wrong with being an “invented” people. The important question is whether a national identity is constructed from the distinctive experience of a people or, as the Palestinians have done, from plundering the history and heritage that belong to someone else.

Mr. Gingrich has been criticized near and far for his “invented” people observation. An Arab-Israeli Knesset member deplored his “lame and shameful comments.” Governor Romney blamed his rival for “incendiary words.” But Mr. Gingrich, as Palestinians have testified for 75 years, knows his history.
When the Arabs Themselves Denied There Was a Palestine - The New York Sun

 

[MJB12741]

Aw, poor Tinmore. Israel IS & Palestine IS NOT. But hey, look at the bright side. Long after your life is over, Israel will still be thriving. And you won't have to suffer over it anymore.

QUOTE=P F Tinmore;5122572]The question is: How can you de-legitimize something (in this case the Zionist state) which it is NOT legitimate?

The truth of the time was that Israel, which came into being mainly as a consequence of Zionist terrorism and pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist unless ….. Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

As it was put to me many years ago by Khalad al-Hassan, Fatah’s intellectual giant on the right, that legitimacy was “the only thing the Zionists could not take from us by force.”

The truth of history as summarised briefly above is the explanation of why, really, Zionism has always insisted that its absolute pre-condition for negotiations with more than a snowball’s chance in hell of a successful outcome (an acceptable measure of justice for the Palestinians and peace for all) is recognition of Israel’s right to exist. A right, it knows, it does not have and will never have unless the Palestinians grant it.

Israel And The[/QUOTE]

 

[Lipush]

I wonder why you say something isn't legal when obviously it is. The Jews have a homeland. Get. Used to it.

Haters can only each to a certain point before losing.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I wonder why you say something isn't legal when obviously it is. The Jews have a homeland. Get. Used to it.

Haters can only each to a certain point before losing.

Like what?

 

[JStone]

Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, Italian Muslim Assembly

I believe that "Palestinian identity" is something completely artificial: it was forged as a propagandistic tool against Israel. The strange fact is that, at least here in Europe, I have never heard an Arab from the Land of Israel ("Palestine") say: "I am Palestinian."

Please remember that the so-called hero of "Palestinian independence," the pro-Nazi Grand Mufti of British Mandate Palestine, Haj Amin al-Husseini, never claimed that "Palestinians" are to be an independent people: all of his official declarations state that "Palestine must be recognized as a integral part of Syria."
ISRAEL SHOULD DECLARE OSLO NULL AND VOID (Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi August, 1998

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsJjm5K07V0]Who are the Palestinians? - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Jos]

I wonder why you say something isn't legal when obviously it is. The Jews have a homeland. Get. Used to it.

Haters can only each to a certain point before losing.

the jews have another homeland
Jewish Autonomous Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JStone]

Arab American Journalist Joseph Farah

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.
Myths of the Middle East

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsJjm5K07V0]Who are the Palestinians? - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Jos]

you win a coin

 

[JStone]

you win a coin

Jos



That coin was minted by the British during the British Mandate. Are Pallies British?

Go to the dunce corner.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Jos]

[quote

you win a coin

JStone



That coin was minted by the British during the British Mandate. Are Pallies British?

Go to the dunce corner.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame][/QUOTE]

Does it say British on the coin?

 

[Lipush]

I wonder why you say something isn't legal when obviously it is. The Jews have a homeland. Get. Used to it.

Haters can only each to a certain point before losing.

Like what?

Does justice appear on only one side of the coin?

Speaking of coins, i wonder from which years is the coin in the previous post. mhmmm

 

[Lipush]

[quote

you win a coin

JStone



That coin was minted by the British during the British Mandate. Are Pallies British?

Go to the dunce corner.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]

Does it say British on the coin?[/QUOTE]

If a coins says "Palestine", lets say, from the beginning of the 20's century, does that make the Jews of Israel in the 20-30's "Palestinians"?

We might just be on to somthing, here.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I wonder why you say something isn't legal when obviously it is. The Jews have a homeland. Get. Used to it.

Haters can only each to a certain point before losing.

Like what?

Does justice appear on only one side of the coin?

Speaking of coins, i wonder from which years is the coin in the previous post. mhmmm

Expound.

 

[Jos]

Palestine shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home, and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Zionist Organization Statement on Palestine

 

[JStone]

Jos





Dunce, under the British Mandate, did the palesteeenians speak arabic with an English accent?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JStone]

[quote

you win a coin

JStone



That coin was minted by the British during the British Mandate. Are Pallies British?

Go to the dunce corner.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Vp642ERhM&feature=related]Sound-Effects - Crowd Laughing - YouTube[/ame]

Does it say British on the coin?

If a coins says "Palestine", lets say, from the beginning of the 20's century, does that make the Jews of Israel in the 20-30's "Palestinians"?

We might just be on to somthing, here.

Eminent Middle East Historian Dr. Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, Author, "The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years," "The Future of the Middle East," "The Shaping of the Modern Middle East," "The End of Modern History in the Middle East," Faith and Power: Religion and Politics in the Middle East"

With the British conquest in 1917-1918 and the subsequent of a mandated territory in the conquered areas, Palestine became the official name of a definite territory.

To begin with, this designation was acceptable neither to Jews not ro Arabs. From the Jewish point of view it restored a name associated in the Jewish historic memory with the largely successful Roman attempt to destroy and obliterate the Jewish identity of the land of Israel. It was a name which had never been used in Jewish history or literature, and the very associations of which were hateful.

From the outset, Jews living under the Mandate refused to use this name in Hebrew but instead used what had become the common Jewish designation of the country---Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel. After a long battle, it was agreed that the official designation of the country in Hebrew on postage stamps, coins, etc would be Palestina, transcribed into Hebrew letters but followed by the abbreviation "aleph yod" For Jews, this was a common abbreviation for Eretz Yisrael.
Amazon.com: Political Words and Ideas in Islam (9781558764248): Bernard Lewis: Books