Islam, the religion of peace.

[Kalam]

By the way, our last "discussion" ended with you posting a slew of passages attributed to Islamic historical figures and me responding with what each actually wrote. Predictably, you failed to respond when the going got tough.

 

[eagleseven]

Muhammad and the Caliphs didn't forge this Empire by singing John Lennon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLTw_ouiLCQ

Of course not.

Then there's nothing left for me to discuss.

*ducks out of thread*

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

By the way, our last "discussion" ended with you posting a slew of passages attributed to Islamic historical figures and me responding with what each actually wrote. Predictably, you failed to respond when the going got tough.

It ended as it began, with what I always said.
Your are not the final word ,there is Islam outside of what you claim.

 

[Kalam]

By the way, our last "discussion" ended with you posting a slew of passages attributed to Islamic historical figures and me responding with what each actually wrote. Predictably, you failed to respond when the going got tough.

It ended as it began, with what I always said.
Your are not the final word ,there is Islam outside of what you claim.

It did not take place in that circus of a thread, I'm afraid.

I find it interesting that you accuse me of insisting on a narrow interpretation of Islam when you're the outsider whose purpose of existence here seems to be portraying it as a monolithic entity. I'm sorry, but we're not bent on killing you or uniting the world under a Taliban-esque regime, nor does our scripture require us to feel that way. Paranoid Westerners will have to satisfy their persecution complexes in some other manner.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

By the way, our last "discussion" ended with you posting a slew of passages attributed to Islamic historical figures and me responding with what each actually wrote. Predictably, you failed to respond when the going got tough.

It ended as it began, with what I always said.
Your are not the final word ,there is Islam outside of what you claim.

It did not take place in that circus of a thread, I'm afraid.

I find it interesting that you accuse me of insisting on a narrow interpretation of Islam when you're the outsider whose purpose of existence here seems to be portraying it as a monolithic entity. I'm sorry, but we're not bent on killing you or uniting the world under a Taliban-esque regime, nor does our scripture require us to feel that way. Paranoid Westerners will have to satisfy their persecution complexes in some other manner.

You cant prove that I'm not a believer .
Join the caravan.

 

[Kalam]

It ended as it began, with what I always said.
Your are not the final word ,there is Islam outside of what you claim.

It did not take place in that circus of a thread, I'm afraid.

I find it interesting that you accuse me of insisting on a narrow interpretation of Islam when you're the outsider whose purpose of existence here seems to be portraying it as a monolithic entity. I'm sorry, but we're not bent on killing you or uniting the world under a Taliban-esque regime, nor does our scripture require us to feel that way. Paranoid Westerners will have to satisfy their persecution complexes in some other manner.

You cant prove that I'm not a believer .
Join the caravan.

Bear witness that there is no god but Allah (SWT) and that Muhammad (SAWS) is His messenger, and beg Him for forgiveness. Unless that happens, I think it's fairly safe to assume that you're a blind, inordinate kafir.

 

[Kalam]

And thank you for affirming what I posted by offering a non-response in return.

 

[eagleseven]

you're a blind, inordinate kafir.

 

[oki]

According to your preferred translation when does the fighting stop under what conditions?

From your link the prior verse
2:38
Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
2:39
39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

There are many translations
Verse 2:193
Yusuf Ali:
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Zohurul Hoque:
And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostilities except against the unjust.
T. J. Irving:
Fight them until there is no more subversion and [all] religion belongs to God. If they stop, let there be no [more] hostility except toward wrongdoers.
T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
M. Pickthall:
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
M.H. Shakir:
And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

2.193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

In the Arabic the word is fitnah

and the whole bit, a bit about war, starts with:

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

And it ends with
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn

or this:

193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Join the caravan.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that you're a blind, inordinate kafir.

Whats the penalty for that?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

and the whole bit, a bit about war, starts with:

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

And it ends with
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn

or this:

193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Quranic Definitions

 

[Charles Stucker]

Funny how the most simple-minded kuffar are also those who feel the most threatened by Islam.

Funny how Islam is "oppressed" by the same conditions they place on Christians and Jews when they are in power.

"Whosoever among the Jews follows us shall have help and equality; they shall not be injured nor shall any enemy be aided against them.... No separate peace will be made when the Believers are fighting in the way of Allah.... The Believers shall avenge the blood of one another shed in the way of Allah ....Whosoever kills a Believer wrongfully shall be liable to retaliation; all the Believers shall be against him as one man and they are bound to take action against him.

....

The Jews shall maintain their own religion and the Muslims theirs. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The close friends of Jews are as themselves. None of them shall go out on a military expedition except with the permission of Muhammad, but he shall not be prevented from taking revenge for a wound.

....

The Jews shall be responsible for their expenses and the Believers for theirs. Each, if attacked, shall come to the assistance of the other."​

Please share something equivalent from the earliest days of either Judaism or Christianity.

Christ healed the Roman soldier - let one of the bible scholars look that one up for you.

The Christian Gudrin helped Freydis in Vinland - as relatted in one of the Icelandic Sagas (which are as accurate as historical documents get) - despite Freydis being a Pagan.

Islam was founded in bloodshed - the early expansion being solely due to conquest by force of arms. It retains that violence to this day.

 

[Kalam]

Christ healed the Roman soldier - let one of the bible scholars look that one up for you.

The Centurion's servant in Matt. 8 and Luke 7?

And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. - Matt. 8:13 (KJV)​

Even if he had been helping a non-believer, I hardly believe that coming to a single person's assistance is equivalent to forming a pact of mutual defense and equality with an entire religious community.

The Christian Gudrin helped Freydis in Vinland - as relatted in one of the Icelandic Sagas (which are as accurate as historical documents get) - despite Freydis being a Pagan.

Gudrun was a mythological figure. As for historical accuracy, would you have us believe that Sigurd really slew a dragon?

Moreover, I do not believe that Gudrun, assuming her character has some basis in historical fact, played any role in the founding of either Judaism or Christianity. The Volsunga Saga was written during the Middle Ages. Please try again.

Islam was founded in bloodshed - the early expansion being solely due to conquest by force of arms. It retains that violence to this day.

Why would you attempt to lie in a discussion with someone who is obviously at least somewhat familiar with early Islamic history? Does that not strike you as stupid?

 

[Kalam]

Join the caravan.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that you're a blind, inordinate kafir.

Whats the penalty for that?

Allah will pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on. - 2:15

The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe. And those who keep their duty will be above them on the day of Resurrection. And Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure. - 2:212

And we turn their hearts and their sights, even as they did not believe in it the first time; and We leave them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on. - 6:110

Whomsoever Allah leaves in error, there is no guide for him. And He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on. - 7:186

And if Allah were to hasten for men the (consequences of) evil, as they would hasten on the good, their doom would certainly have been decreed for them. But We leave those alone, who have no hope of meeting with Us, in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on. - 10:11

Those who believe not in the Hereafter, We make their deeds fair-seeming to them, but they blindly wander on. These are they for whom there is an evil chastisement, and in the Hereafter they are the greatest losers. - 27:4-5​

Blindness, chastisement in the hereafter. Enjoy.

 

[Sunni Man]

Join the caravan.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that you're a blind, inordinate kafir.

Whats the penalty for that?

Spending eternity in Hell

 

[oki]

Quranic Definitions

 

[MuslimAgorist]

I have yet to find a muslim who will not tell those who have not study Islamic scripture exactly what they want to hear about Islam to ally their fears .

I'm happy to discuss anything you like. However you should understand ahead of time that I have some rules for civil discourse and I won't stay in a conversation where these are not observed.

1) I will never advocate the initiation of violence and I will not pretend civil discourse with someone who advocates the initiation of violence against me.

2) Moral principles are universal. By applying a moral principle to anyone you de facto accept the universality of that principle which must be consistently applied to yourself.

3) We submit to reason and evidence. I am a student of philosophy and classical logic. I won't entertain arguments after clear logical fallacies have been exposed, not will attempt to remonstrate the prejudices of an unreasonable person.

What would you like to know?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Hi, Do you have any scriptural evidence the Munkar does not include disbelief ?

 

[MuslimAgorist]

Hi, Do you have any scriptural evidence the Munkar does not include disbelief ?

Munkar meaning the angel or Munkar meaning the classification of scriptural evidence as unreliable? Either way I don' t understand your question. But it seems like your asking me to prove a negative, which is impossible.

*edit Sorry, did some Googling and found it. You're talking about Nahy an al-Munkar, forbidding what is wrong. So my answer is no. I don't have any scriptural evidence off the top of my head to say whether or not that includes disbelief. I think it's a general axiom, enjoin what is right, and forbid was is wrong. Not sure where you're going, but I'll take that train.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You should pursuit that track until it is exhausted then report back your findings.