Islam = Paganism/Polytheism

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Hobbit
Yes, but Muslims still hail Christ as a prophet and the Old Testament sections of the Quran are almost exactly like the Old Testament of the Bible.

Calling someone a prophet is one thing. Calling him the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind is totally different. The difference is far from minor. Same with the scriptures... the Quran and Bible teach very different theologies. Another major difference.

The only difference I've found so far is that the Quran claims that Ishmael was the one Abraham was told by God to sacrifice. Although the basic ideas of salvation are radically different, both religions believe in many of the same moral codes, such as the Ten Commandments, and that the way to live is in complete submission to the will of God.

Beliefs about salvation constitute the third major difference between the two.

The word Islam, properly translated, means submission, surrender, and obedience, with a Muslim being one who submits to that will. In a way, all who obey the will of God are Muslims. In fact, everything we know is Muslim, since it submits to the physical laws God laid.

Everything is Muslim? All who submit to God are Muslims?!? Let's not get carried away here, Frodo. It's true that all Muslims (theoretically) submit to God; the corrolary, that all that submit to God are Muslims, is not true.

The difference lies in the fact that followers of the Islam religion believe that salvation comes through total submission to God, while Christianity believes that salvation come by the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, with submission to God's will being asked in return. The conflict comes in a difference in theology where Muslims believe people should be forced to submit to God's will, while Christians (at least those who truly follow the finer points of the ministry of Jesus) believe people should come to God of their own free will.

This part I agree with, though I question why you qualify the Christian's willingness to follow in Jesus' footsteps.

 

[Said1]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
.This part I agree with, though I question why you qualify the Christian's willingness to follow in Jesus' footsteps.

I think he's refering to being selective about what it is you wish to follow, and what wish not to follow, instead of accepting all of it as God's word - so to speak.

Hey Badfish, did "the voice" get you down? Pretty out there these days isn't it

 

[badfish]

Originally posted by Said1
I think he's refering to being selective about what it is you wish to follow, and what wish not to follow, instead of accepting all of it as God's word - so to speak.

Hey Badfish, did "the voice" get you down? Pretty out there these days isn't it

That and sniper kitties...

 

[cptpwichita]

look at the 2 founders:

1.jesus-declared himself the son of god,performed miracles,was born of a virgin,gave prophecies,taught about god and his love for men and women,was himself a jew and revealed how the old testament and gods' law foreshadowed his coming,on the cross he said"it is finished",he rose from the dead,he will return and judge the living and the dead on this criteria-who do you say jesus is?

2.declared himself to be the final prophet of god("it is finished"),performed no miracles,gave no prophecies(except for him returning to medina and a prophecy that was off by some years concerning the romans),fought wars and gave his followers permission to be assassins and rapists and torturers and pirates,was a arab,claimed passages in old testament pointed to him(yet discarded a large portion of the old testament),he died(he was poisoned),god will judge men by a set of scales if the good outweighs the bad your in if it is the other way around you go to hell (so you won't know if your going to heaven until you die,unless you die fighting infidels then you are assured a place in heaven).

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by cptpwichita
2.declared himself to be the final prophet of god("it is finished"),performed no miracles,gave no prophecies(except for him returning to medina and a prophecy that was off by some years concerning the romans),fought wars and gave his followers permission to be assassins and rapists and torturers and pirates,was a arab,claimed passages in old testament pointed to him(yet discarded a large portion of the old testament),he died(he was poisoned),god will judge men by a set of scales if the good outweighs the bad your in if it is the other way around you go to hell (so you won't know if your going to heaven until you die,unless you die fighting infidels then you are assured a place in heaven).

Actually ive never seen any mention of Mohammad being the last prophet till one of his successors said it after he was dead.

 

[Hobbit]

To finalize my official stance on Islam, I'm not saying it's the same as Christianity, because it's vastly different. I'm just saying it's far more similar than most people think.

As for everything being Muslim, once again, that is in a purely theological sense. In a political sense, a Muslim is one who follows the religion of Islam. In a theological sense, a Muslim is defined, quite literally, as "One who submits to the will of God." God willed that all masses in the universe be attracted to each other by a force directly proportional to the mass of the two objects and inversely proportional to the distance between them (a.k.a. the law of gravity), and they all do. Thus, they submit to the will of God and are Muslim. In fact, the only area in which we have a choice whether or not to be Muslim is in thought and action. According to Islam, being Muslim is the natrual state of things, since everything in the universe essentially bows to God's will in the form of the laws of physics, so failure to submit to God's will in thought and action is unnatural, and thus can only bring about consequences.

 

[cptpwichita]

1.islam and christianity serve 2 different gods
2.islam and christianity are completely different when you look at how each religions followers are to treat those who are not of their religion(christians are to love them and share their religion in a positive way,muslims can use violence to convert followers and people really only have 2 options either convert or die unless you are a christian or jew you can pay a back-breaking tax and must admit islam is superior).
3.2 different founders who lived 2 very different lives(mohammeds life was full of violence and jesus preached peace and love)
4.2 completely different theologies(jesus claimed to be the one and only unique son of god and ONLY through him can you have eternal life by his death on the cross and his ressurection from the dead forever paying the full debt of sin for all those who place their trust in him,mohammed after he gained power converted people with the sword and claimed he recieved revelation from the angel gabriel and he was gods prophet.
5.read the new testament and the koran and you will see major differences in the character of god

they are worlds apart and not similar at all except they are both religions

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Hobbit
As for everything being Muslim, once again, that is in a purely theological sense. In a political sense, a Muslim is one who follows the religion of Islam. In a theological sense, a Muslim is defined, quite literally, as "One who submits to the will of God." God willed that all masses in the universe be attracted to each other by a force directly proportional to the mass of the two objects and inversely proportional to the distance between them (a.k.a. the law of gravity), and they all do. Thus, they submit to the will of God and are Muslim. In fact, the only area in which we have a choice whether or not to be Muslim is in thought and action. According to Islam, being Muslim is the natrual state of things, since everything in the universe essentially bows to God's will in the form of the laws of physics, so failure to submit to God's will in thought and action is unnatural, and thus can only bring about consequences. [/B]

You are absolutely wrong. In a theological sense, a Muslim is one who follows the teachings of Mohammed and the Quran. Christians do not do so; therefore, Christians are not Muslims. To say that a Muslim is one who submits to God is true in the sense that Muslims define their religion that way. But to say that everything is s Muslim because we are governed by the laws of nature that God created is not correct.

 

[cptpwichita]

yeah i have a few problems with catholism to:
1.veneration of saints and saints as intercessors between man and god.
2.purgatory
3.plenary indulgences
4.faith+works instead of faith alone
5.putting more emphasis on christs death than his ressurection
6.view on end-times prophecy
7.the infallibility of the pope(despite many anti-popes)

to name a few

 

[cptpwichita]

sorry i posted on wrong board please disregard above post

 

[Hobbit]

The literal definition of the Arabic word "Muslim" is "One who submits to the will of God." Saying "Muslim" in every possible sense of the word means one who follows the Islam religion just because that's the word they call themselves is like saying "Senor" can only ever mean a Spanish speaking male because that's what they call themselves. Muslim means a follower of Islam in political and historical context. In a literal, theological context, it is everything and everyone because some parts of God's will we are powerless against. This is not some abstract word that is open to iterperetation, it is the literal definition of the word as defined by the people who made up the language. Its meaning is just as concrete as the word "potato" or "book." They might take on new meanings, but the original meaning will always be there.

Please bear in mind that I'm NOT trying to say that everyone is a follower of Islam. This statement that everything is, in a sense, "Muslim" is a well known part of the teaching of Islam, the last people who would say that Christians follow their religion.

 

[archaic]

Muhammed the liars first words in the Koran says that man is made of clotted blood. This unlearned illiterate man believed a child was born from the clotting of menstrual blood.
We all know this isnt the case.
He said that God doesnt need a son when Moses said differently that God had indeed many sons..."And the sons of God saw the daughters of men as fair" before the times of Noah when giants ruled the Earth.
Muhammed the false prophet could not read nor write it is no wonder he had to invent a new way to know a God he himself created as all he knew was little shreds of knowledge he ellaborated upon due to his lack of understanding and learning...he even went as far as to say the angels not God gave Moses the commandments...as stated "WE gave Moses the commandments"
The Fruit of God's loins the apple of his eye which hung on the branches even his firstfruit when consumed into death brought all creation into the consumation of death...and the abyss opened within the eyes of man being deceived by the serpent who tempted us with his prize and victory which adorned the branches of the barren tree made green to taste of it making man equal to the beast to suffer the bottomless pit manifest upon this earth the mortal coil a never ending falling into death a hell Leviathan the serpent himself had endured. The tree of knowledge and the tree of life resided together in the center of the Garden... concerning the tree of life even the cross I have said in this tree you shall see both good and evil, which shall both destroy you and make you live again.

 

[cptpwichita]

Originally posted by Hobbit
The literal definition of the Arabic word "Muslim" is "One who submits to the will of God." Saying "Muslim" in every possible sense of the word means one who follows the Islam religion just because that's the word they call themselves is like saying "Senor" can only ever mean a Spanish speaking male because that's what they call themselves. Muslim means a follower of Islam in political and historical context. In a literal, theological context, it is everything and everyone because some parts of God's will we are powerless against. This is not some abstract word that is open to iterperetation, it is the literal definition of the word as defined by the people who made up the language. Its meaning is just as concrete as the word "potato" or "book." They might take on new meanings, but the original meaning will always be there.

Please bear in mind that I'm NOT trying to say that everyone is a follower of Islam. This statement that everything is, in a sense, "Muslim" is a well known part of the teaching of Islam, the last people who would say that Christians follow their religion.

What is your point ?Islams god is one who is totally disconnected from his creation on a emotional basis.allah is a god who does not care about having a personal relationship with you but does care if you follow his rules and regulations or you will be killed by GOOD MUSLIMS and then burn in hell.allah seems to be inept through history or powerless or he just doesn't care because he told the israelites one thing,christians one thing,and muslims something completely different (I think allah needs a day-planner).
You also would think that allah would find someone with a little bit better character than mohammed to be his final messenger (compare jesus life to mohammeds and you will see what i mean, heck compare hitler and mohammed would be closer).
you say in a sense everyone is muslim-i agree!(of course i'm a bad muslim and hitler,dahmer,mussolini,and jack the ripper were all probably better muslims than me since their lives more closely resembled mohammeds than mine does)

 

[tybalt]

Christ, the teacher, was merged with the Mithraic Sun God by Emperor Constantine. Consequently, almost all of Christian rituals and observances practiced today are borrowed from Pagan religion. Furthermore, the Church’s attempts to extend their political and cultural power turned Christ from teacher to deity. In this way, the Church inserted itself between the people and their desire for salvation/enlightenment. This provided the means for immense control over people’s lives. Enlightenment was no longer attainable via study and practice. Now it could only be attained through favor of the high priests who held the reins of power.

Constantine issued the first imperial Sunday edict in 321 A.D. (as well as other edicts that shaped the Christianity that we recognize today) as a means to bring peace through mutual compromise between Christians and Mithraic Pagans of the Roman Empire. These edicts largely changed the worship of Christianity to Paganism. Unifying the major religious factions was the first step toward uniting church and state.

In 325 A.D., Constantine assembled the leaders of the Christian church at the Council of Nicaea, during which the church leaders decreed that Easter must be kept only on a certain Sunday of each year, instead of the Biblical manner in which it had been observed by Messianics up to that time. Immediately afterward, Constantine issued a decree that everyone must obey the rulings of this council, on pain of imprisonment or death. Shortly after this, the first recorded church legislation commanding Sunday was enacted at the Council of Laodicea. At this time, many scriptures suggesting the mortal aspects of Jesus were either altered or destroyed. This was done to transform Jesus into a more marketable deity, as well as to adapt the Messianic story to Pagan culture and beliefs.

In the time of Constantine, Mithraism had become the largest sun-worship cult of the Western World and also the largest pagan religion in the Roman Empire. The most important of the Pagan gods was the “sun god”, or “Sol Invictus”, that ruled over the first day of the week. Sunday was his day, the day of the sun. Thus, it was here that the early Christians departed from their Judaic practice of worshipping on the Sabbath to worshipping on the Mithraic Holy Day in order to compromise with the dominant Roman religion. Mithraism also had other features that were adopted by Christianity, like a dying, rising savior-human god, special religious suppers eating the flesh and drinking the blood of their Christ, and baptisms.

The emperor Aurelian (270-275), whose mother was a “priestess of the Sun,” made Mithraism the official religion of the empire. His biographer, Flavius Vopiscus, describes that priests of the Temple of the Sun were called “Pontiffs.” They were priests of their dying-rising savior, who was Mithra, and reigned as his vicegerents.

Cumont, Olcott and other scholars clearly show that December 25 was the yearly date of the annual birth of Mithra. December 25 was a great pagan festival of Sol Invictus, which celebrated the victory of light over darkness, and the lengthening of the sun's rays at the winter solstice. It was lowest at the winter solstice, December 21, and not until the 25th could its rising be clearly seen. This birthday of the sun-god was made an official holiday in the Roman Empire by Aurelian in 273.

Considering how much Christianity has digressed from its Judaic roots, it is reasonable to say that Christianity is essentially Pagan.

 

[cptpwichita]

Originally posted by tybalt
Christ, the teacher, was merged with the Mithraic Sun God by Emperor Constantine. Consequently, almost all of Christian rituals and observances practiced today are borrowed from Pagan religion. Furthermore, the Church’s attempts to extend their political and cultural power turned Christ from teacher to deity. In this way, the Church inserted itself between the people and their desire for salvation/enlightenment. This provided the means for immense control over people’s lives. Enlightenment was no longer attainable via study and practice. Now it could only be attained through favor of the high priests who held the reins of power.

Constantine issued the first imperial Sunday edict in 321 A.D. (as well as other edicts that shaped the Christianity that we recognize today) as a means to bring peace through mutual compromise between Christians and Mithraic Pagans of the Roman Empire. These edicts largely changed the worship of Christianity to Paganism. Unifying the major religious factions was the first step toward uniting church and state.

In 325 A.D., Constantine assembled the leaders of the Christian church at the Council of Nicaea, during which the church leaders decreed that Easter must be kept only on a certain Sunday of each year, instead of the Biblical manner in which it had been observed by Messianics up to that time. Immediately afterward, Constantine issued a decree that everyone must obey the rulings of this council, on pain of imprisonment or death. Shortly after this, the first recorded church legislation commanding Sunday was enacted at the Council of Laodicea. At this time, many scriptures suggesting the mortal aspects of Jesus were either altered or destroyed. This was done to transform Jesus into a more marketable deity, as well as to adapt the Messianic story to Pagan culture and beliefs.

In the time of Constantine, Mithraism had become the largest sun-worship cult of the Western World and also the largest pagan religion in the Roman Empire. The most important of the Pagan gods was the “sun god”, or “Sol Invictus”, that ruled over the first day of the week. Sunday was his day, the day of the sun. Thus, it was here that the early Christians departed from their Judaic practice of worshipping on the Sabbath to worshipping on the Mithraic Holy Day in order to compromise with the dominant Roman religion. Mithraism also had other features that were adopted by Christianity, like a dying, rising savior-human god, special religious suppers eating the flesh and drinking the blood of their Christ, and baptisms.

The emperor Aurelian (270-275), whose mother was a “priestess of the Sun,” made Mithraism the official religion of the empire. His biographer, Flavius Vopiscus, describes that priests of the Temple of the Sun were called “Pontiffs.” They were priests of their dying-rising savior, who was Mithra, and reigned as his vicegerents.

Cumont, Olcott and other scholars clearly show that December 25 was the yearly date of the annual birth of Mithra. December 25 was a great pagan festival of Sol Invictus, which celebrated the victory of light over darkness, and the lengthening of the sun's rays at the winter solstice. It was lowest at the winter solstice, December 21, and not until the 25th could its rising be clearly seen. This birthday of the sun-god was made an official holiday in the Roman Empire by Aurelian in 273.

Considering how much Christianity has digressed from its Judaic roots, it is reasonable to say that Christianity is essentially Pagan.

i look at the gospels (which were all written before 100 a.d. to provide me with the life of jesus and how he measured up to his claim of being the messiah of the old testament.jesus fulfilled very detailed prophecies of the old testament and lived a sinless life)mohammed tries to point to a few very vague prophecies or takes them out of context or both and his life was very violent (some mafia dons' have seen less violence than mohammed).