Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Comrade
Turkey is an exception solely because of the Western rule of law it has been under, off an on, for the last 1,000 years.

Albania is one other example where a secular communist rule and a surrounding Western culture has served to tone down the Islamic faith.

Wahabbi Islam and Shi'ite Muslims, in most of the middle east, are pure forms of the two sects of Islam that in most respects both Turkey and Albania fail to practice.


If Turkey is 98% Muslim and Saudi Arabia per the CIA site is 100% Muslim, why are both so radically different?

The best guess (and it is a guess, I'm no expert on Islamic history) I could come up with is that Sunni people have been exposed more directly to the western world than Shi'ites and Wahabbi's. Sunni people have had treatise, war and exchange of ideas since the days of the Ottomans. Shi'ites which are further to the east have mostly been concerned with relations with Sunni's and have been left relatively untouched from the western world until 19th century at best and more realistically 20th century.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I did, and I disagree with them.

You can disagree with them all you want. They know more about Islam than you and they disagree with you. Geeze......

They are basing their decision on THEIR understanding of THEIR religion. Since they represent MOST of the Islamic countried in the world, it seems as if a MAJORITY of Islamic countries disagree with you.

 

[cptpwichita]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Damn you stole my thunder.
I'm reading through these replies and thinking, "How can an American say that a religion not their own is completely incompatible with democracy?"

Our country was founded by those seeking religious freedom. Hundreds of religions are practiced within the US.

Clearly, any religion CAN be compatible with democracy as long as religion is a personal preference and not a political ideaology.

Amen.:

islam is a political ideology as well as a religious faith.the contradiction islam has with democracy is in its own text.the more religious the muslim people in a nation,the less compatible that nation will be to acceptance of a democratic government.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by cptpwichita
islam is a political ideology as well as a religious faith.the contradiction islam has with democracy is in its own text.the more religious the muslim people in a nation,the less compatible that nation will be to acceptance of a democratic government.

I don't know about that.

 

[Annie]

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by nycflasher
I don't know about that.

You just like to argue instead of coming up with an opinion huh?

Typical of the left.....

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
You can disagree with them all you want. They know more about Islam than you and they disagree with you. Geeze......

They are basing their decision on THEIR understanding of THEIR religion. Since they represent MOST of the Islamic countried in the world, it seems as if a MAJORITY of Islamic countries disagree with you.

I listed three primarily islamic countries that use a democratic system of governance . They can discuss, meet, preach all they want. They can also say the majority of the muslim countries disagree, but these three (and maybe more) countries still exist. Logically, they are wrong. I don't need to be an authority on Islam to state that, it's a very simple logical refution (Statement: No A is B, fact: Some A is B, therefore the statement is false).

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I listed three primarily islamic countries that use a democratic system of governance . They can discuss, meet, preach all they want. They can also say the majority of the muslim countries disagree, but these three (and maybe more) countries still exist. Logically, they are wrong. I don't need to be an authority on Islam to state that, it's a very simple logical refution (Statement: No A is B, fact: Some A is B, therefore the statement is false).

I am just pointing out how the MAJORITY thinks.....

If they don't see it as being compatible, it WON'T be. Time will tell with the three you cite.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
You just like to argue instead of coming up with an opinion huh?

Typical of the left.....

I often just come here to read, and I speak up when I either agree or disagree with something stated...in about equal measure.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
I am just pointing out how the MAJORITY thinks.....

If they don't see it as being compatible, it WON'T be. Time will tell with the three you cite.

Turkey: 84 years and counting (since the adoption of the Turkish National Assembly).

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
You just like to argue instead of coming up with an opinion huh?

Typical of the left.....

One would think he was arguing just to look unbiased, yeah, that's it!

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
You just like to argue instead of coming up with an opinion huh?

Typical of the left.....

What would you like an opinion on, in addition to the ones I've already given?

 

[JROTCcadet]

You just like to argue instead of coming up with an opinion huh?

The beauty of debate in general is that you can say you don't agree with something as it stands without saying you have all the answers. I'm long-winded and arrogant, so I don't normally have a problem saying all of my opinions at once, but you could do a lot better for yourself than blaming a simple disagreement on an entire side of the political spectrum.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by JROTCcadet
The beauty of debate in general is that you can say you don't agree with something as it stands without saying you have all the answers. I'm long-winded and arrogant, so I don't normally have a problem saying all of my opinions at once, but you could do a lot better for yourself than blaming a simple disagreement on an entire side of the political spectrum.

True, but when the shoe fits.....

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
The best guess (and it is a guess, I'm no expert on Islamic history) I could come up with is that Sunni people have been exposed more directly to the western world than Shi'ites and Wahabbi's. Sunni people have had treatise, war and exchange of ideas since the days of the Ottomans. Shi'ites which are further to the east have mostly been concerned with relations with Sunni's and have been left relatively untouched from the western world until 19th century at best and more realistically 20th century.

Here's an good map of the big picture.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/world_maps/muslim_distribution.jpg

The Sunni Wahabbi sect, led by Saudi Arabia, is the primary motivators for Al-Quada.

Iran, the leader of the Shi'ite sect, seems to be more docile in directly challenging the West.

As the light green areas related to Sunni Islam approach Western Europe, the fundamentalist dogma tends to tone down to a more liberal interpretation.

Exceptions to this patten include the Northern reaches of Sunni Islam, in Checnya, and to a lesser extent the area in Kosovo, and in North and Eastern Pakistan, where all these region have begun to emulate a radical version set against peacefull co-existance with non-Muslim neighbors.

As the leading example and authority on Sunni Islam, Saudi Arabia does a piss poor job of dealing with the clash of cultures.

 

[JROTCcadet]

True, but when the shoe fits.....

Geez...way to argue without putting forth an opinion. Should I assume that's typical of the right now?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by JROTCcadet
Geez...way to argue without putting forth an opinion. Should I assume that's typical of the right now?

There was nothing to debate. I said "true" as in I agree. But, if the shoe fits. Pretty apt reply if I may say so myself.

 

[Gop guy]

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
I think Islam is pretty incompatible with just about everything.



Oh wait, it's compatible with loser dictatorships and writing checks with your mouth that your ass can't cash.

LOL, starting to believe you!

 

[Doc Holiday]

Originally posted by JROTCcadet
First of all, I have to question just how much you personally know about Islam and how much you just assume you know. Secondly, it's also compatible with one of the oldest civilized regions on the earth, and I don't think that's too shabby an accomplishment. Much of the reason the Middle East is such a prime area for dictatorship has more to do with their posession of a non-diversified economy than anything else. It's actually capitalism run wild, where only one industry posesses a monopoly over the entire regions economics. Certainly religious fanatacism has some amount to do with it, but the KKK where fanatically Christian as well. It's not Islam that's bad, it's fanatasicm in any form.

Ok Junior, I'll play with you.

I know a lot about Islam. I have read numerous books about it and read the Koran once. I have lived in the Middle East as well. I know enough about it to know it's about as tolerant of us as Hitler was to the Jews.
It also is associated with a civilization that hasn't progressed in over 1000 years. Is the Arabic civilization so advanced as to not need to do anything for a millienia and still be as advanced as the Western world? Are they waiting for us to catch up to them?
As far as the middle east being capitalism run wild, have you ever been to the middle east or are you talking out of your ass, spewing what some professor told you in college? The Arabic culture is designed for strong leaders and that's what they desire. It has nothing to do with their economy.
And yes, Islam is bad. After all, when Catholics go wrong, you see condemnation from other Catholics, not dancing in the streets and interviews that say the enemies of Islam got what was coming to them.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Comrade
Here's an good map of the big picture.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/world_maps/muslim_distribution.jpg

The Sunni Wahabbi sect, led by Saudi Arabia, is the primary motivators for Al-Quada.

Iran, the leader of the Shi'ite sect, seems to be more docile in directly challenging the West.

As the light green areas related to Sunni Islam approach Western Europe, the fundamentalist dogma tends to tone down to a more liberal interpretation.

Exceptions to this patten include the Northern reaches of Sunni Islam, in Checnya, and to a lesser extent the area in Kosovo, and in North and Eastern Pakistan, where all these region have begun to emulate a radical version set against peacefull co-existance with non-Muslim neighbors.

As the leading example and authority on Sunni Islam, Saudi Arabia does a piss poor job of dealing with the clash of cultures.

I think that's a fairly accurate depiction that you've given. Looking at the map you gave, it really does seem as if there is a direct relationship between liberalized islam and distance from the west. However, I wouldn't let Iran off the hook quite so much.

Iran would be a bigger pain in the west's ass if it could, but real politik still exists even for fundamentalists. However, my girlfriend is from Iran and the truth is, is that there is a vast population that already is westernized (especially in larger cities). Public sentiment pushes for reform (as demonstrated by the election of reformists in their parliament), but power is seized too strongly.

In many ways Iran is like the Poland or Czechoslovakia of the 1980s, where there is a strong young force pushing for reform, with the the old folks of the revolution clinging desperately on to power. However, the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks were being embraced by the west to liberate themselves and did receive political help. Iranians are in a very different situation. Even those who desire reform often feel alienated by the west because of their religion due to happenings in the middle-east. The "solidarity" movement can work both ways.

Lastly, with Chechnya, Kosovo and to a lesser extent Kashmir, I strongly believe that it isn't a matter of religion as it is a matter of nationalism as the over-riding factor. However, you are indeed correct since often those arease get support from Islamic fundamentalists. However, if Chechnya, Kosovo were ceded and Kashmir question was resolved, i do not believe you would see the continuation of radical Islamic involvement.