Is Violence Against Women EVER Justified?

[uscitizen]

I just reply in kind, if words i reply in words if violence I reply in violence. Again excpet with a spouse or significant other that is a different situation and I will just walk on that one.
If I can't live with them I will just not live with them. Simple as that.

 

[Sherry]

So I was having a discussion with the wife about if and when it is ever ok for a man to hit a women. Now the stereotypical answer is “never”. But is that really realistic? Let me toss out some scenarios where a man hit a women. Each of these I have personally witnessed (no I wasn’t the one doing the hitting) and in each case I felt the girl got exactly what she deserved.

Example 1: A buddy of mine had a girlfriend who made no secret that in her opinion she could hit him as much as she wanted because the moment he dared to hit back he would go to jail instead of her and no court would ever convict a woman of being abusive toward a man. I mean she actually bragged about it. She beat on that guy like a drum constantly until one day he finally had enough and “returned the treatment”. (Note: He would have simply left her but they had a child together and he couldn’t leave the child with an abusive woman until he could prove in court she was abusive – eventually that did happen.)

Example 2: To make a long story short, a beautiful woman stole our table at a crowded bar. My brother asked her politely to leave several times and offered to buy her a drink if she would depart. She refused every time told him “beautiful women only take orders when they feel like it so there’s not much you can do about it is there?” and then she blew smoke in his face. He asked her to leave again and warned her that if she blew smoke in his face again he would punch her dead in the face. She said “oh really? I dare you”, leaned directly into his face and exhaled a cloud of smoke around my brothers head….he broke her nose.

Example 3: A woman stood behind her boyfriend screaming at this other guy calling him every name in the book, making reference to his questionable parentage…I mean you name it and she said it. Her boyfriend stood between them and although he wasn’t being aggressive toward the other guy neither was he telling his girlfriend to shut the hell up either. Finally her boyfriend said “you will have to go through me first to shut her up”. The guy said “I accept your terms” and after he beat the shit out of her boyfriend he walked up to the women and punched her dead in the mouth and told her “you got your boyfriends ass kicked you should share his pain.”

Now as I said…..these were thing I witnessed where I said to myself “normally I would never endorse violence of any kind let alone against women…..but in this case….the bitch was begging for it.”

I welcome thoughts.

Example 1 - I doubt this pattern of behavior emerged after there was a child involved, so he's an idiot for sticking around after it happened once, maybe twice. He didn't demand her respect, which is why it escalated.

Examples 2 & 3 - Those responses speak to the character of those men, and their choices need to be owned rather than attempt to put it on the women...that is letting other people define who you are, rather than making that determination. I would be ashamed if my son punched a woman in the face in the sort of situations you outlined.

 

[BluePhantom]

I'm not saying don't fight back. I'm saying two things: 1) you should also have learned to pick your battles, because not everything REQUIRES a fight, and 2) as an adult, you should know better, more civilized, and more mature ways of fighting back than punching someone. For example, I pointed out that the correct thing to do about the obnoxious woman taking your seat is NOT to stand there, arguing with her and thus giving her the opportunity to be even more rude. It's to take your problem to the manager and let HIM deal with her. And frankly, it's a total stranger and a frigging seat in a restaurant. It's not worth ASSAULTING someone over.

Oh I have made the transition from the physical to the intellectual. If I am "attacked" in the boardroom I don't jump up and pop someone. I fight back intellectually with facts, statistics, logical arguments....but I fight back. I don't cower down and allow myself to be trampled whether it's physically, emotionally, or intellectually. That is something I did learn on the playground. Second of all, it was 10:00 pm on a Saturday night and the place was elbow to elbow...there was no other place to go except to leave which we didn't want to do nor should we be required to do just because a pretty face decided our table was now hers.

Sorry, but men don't have different rules. I can assure you that it's just as unacceptable - and illegal - for men to start punching other men over shooting off their mouths as it is to punch a woman for it. If things are different where you live, then I would have to start wondering what sort of low-class ghetto you live in.

I don't know what reality you live in but I live in the one where men and women have completely different rules but we are all supposed to pretend that we don't.

I expect my husband to say something to a man who is being rude to me (although there's an excellent chance I will beat him to it), but I certainly don't expect him to go out in the parking lot and start whaling away on him for it. How silly. I would only expect my husband to become physically violent on my behalf if someone was physically threatening me (an extension of the whole "self-defense" thing).

Many women would not share your point of view. They may claim they do when things are calm, but when things are tense they will think completely differently and hang onto that for a long damned time.

Legality follows morality, and the fact that our society has made it illegal to go around punching folks for what they say tells you that it is, in fact, deemed unacceptable morally to do so.

Legality has nothing at all to do with morality. Legality has to do with politics, lobbying, and financial influence. Morality has to do with personal opinions. You are of this planet aren't you?

That's not "spoken like a woman". It's spoken like a civilized human being who understands that mature adults cannot and should not go around hitting each other over a bunch of words. Again, the fact that it is illegal to do so should tell you that our society views it that way . . . men as well as women. And no, the two have a lot to do with each other, because we don't make things felonies (which assault is) unless we consider them morally reprehensible. I can't imagine where you got the idea that we just pulled the criminal code out of our collective asses.

Actually no, it's spoken like a women....and a naive one at that.

 

[buckeye45_73]

well I'd say if it's me or her, I know how I'm voting. In general you dont hit women but if someone is attacking you in a lifethreatening way, yeah I would use force

 

[Dr.Drock]

So I was having a discussion with the wife about if and when it is ever ok for a man to hit a women. Now the stereotypical answer is “never”. But is that really realistic? Let me toss out some scenarios where a man hit a women. Each of these I have personally witnessed (no I wasn’t the one doing the hitting) and in each case I felt the girl got exactly what she deserved.

Example 1: A buddy of mine had a girlfriend who made no secret that in her opinion she could hit him as much as she wanted because the moment he dared to hit back he would go to jail instead of her and no court would ever convict a woman of being abusive toward a man. I mean she actually bragged about it. She beat on that guy like a drum constantly until one day he finally had enough and “returned the treatment”. (Note: He would have simply left her but they had a child together and he couldn’t leave the child with an abusive woman until he could prove in court she was abusive – eventually that did happen.)

Example 2: To make a long story short, a beautiful woman stole our table at a crowded bar. My brother asked her politely to leave several times and offered to buy her a drink if she would depart. She refused every time told him “beautiful women only take orders when they feel like it so there’s not much you can do about it is there?” and then she blew smoke in his face. He asked her to leave again and warned her that if she blew smoke in his face again he would punch her dead in the face. She said “oh really? I dare you”, leaned directly into his face and exhaled a cloud of smoke around my brothers head….he broke her nose.

Example 3: A woman stood behind her boyfriend screaming at this other guy calling him every name in the book, making reference to his questionable parentage…I mean you name it and she said it. Her boyfriend stood between them and although he wasn’t being aggressive toward the other guy neither was he telling his girlfriend to shut the hell up either. Finally her boyfriend said “you will have to go through me first to shut her up”. The guy said “I accept your terms” and after he beat the shit out of her boyfriend he walked up to the women and punched her dead in the mouth and told her “you got your boyfriends ass kicked you should share his pain.”

Now as I said…..these were thing I witnessed where I said to myself “normally I would never endorse violence of any kind let alone against women…..but in this case….the bitch was begging for it.”

I welcome thoughts.

1.) Your buddy is a fucking idiot, and deserved to get beat up by a broad if he was too stupid or too much of a pantywaist to dump her.

2.) Sorry, but your brother is an idiot. If she refuses to leave, get another table, if there's not another table go to another bar or restaurant. Not sure how breaking a woman's nose, no matter how big of a bitch, is the thing to do.

3.) Should've just kicked the guys ass if he wasn't smart enough to walk away.


I'd find new ppl to associate with. The only times I'd find hitting a woman to be acceptable is if she's pulling a gun or knife or some other weapon on someone. So that's about 1 in 100 million chance that's the reason a woman is assaulted by a man.

 

[BluePhantom]

I'd find new ppl to associate with. The only times I'd find hitting a woman to be acceptable is if she's pulling a gun or knife or some other weapon on someone. So that's about 1 in 100 million chance that's the reason a woman is assaulted by a man.

One in a million? Really? Go down to your friendly neighborhood prison in any state and have a look at how many women are in there for violent crime.

"Still, the newest findings challenge the feminist belief that "it is men only who cause violence," says psychologist Deborah Capaldi of the Oregon Social Learning Center. "That is a myth."

The number of women who hit first or hit back is "much greater than has been generally assumed," Capaldi says. She says she is surprised by the frequency of aggressive acts by women and by the number of men who are afraid of partners who assault them."

"Gelles says the lifetime risk of a woman being struck by a male intimate partner is about 28%. And "depending upon who is doing the survey and how you measure it, you could get numbers of up to 50%." But he says a man's lifetime risk of being struck by a woman is also about 28%."

"The young are particularly prone to aggression. Erika Lawrence of the University of Iowa told the prevention conference that one-third of newlywed women and one-quarter of newlywed men engage in physical aggression."​

USATODAY.com - Studies shatter myth about abuse

 

[BluePhantom]

I'd find new ppl to associate with. The only times I'd find hitting a woman to be acceptable is if she's pulling a gun or knife or some other weapon on someone. So that's about 1 in 100 million chance that's the reason a woman is assaulted by a man.

"According to Colgate University psychology professor Carrie Keating, women abusing, even assaulting their male partners "is a big problem in this country."

"There are some data that suggest that women actually hit more than men do," says Keating. "Men create more damage, but women hit more than men do."

A report prepared for the Centers for Disease Control estimates that each year there are over 800,000 serious cases of men being physically abused by women. But the actual figures are believed to be much higher, since many men are often too embarrassed to admit being the victim of abuse by a woman."​

Turning the Tables - ABC News

"About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.

The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, Domestic Violence: The Male Perspective, states: "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."

Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available."​

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

 

[Dr.Drock]

Well thanks for the links, but i don't care if a woman beats a man.

1.) Don't date bitches.

2.) Once you get hit, leave.

Same goes for women, don't date assholes and leave once you get hit. But women have more of an excuse because of the physical indimidation and the fact that they could be raped.

Unless your buddy knocked her up on a one night stand and had no idea what she was like, he doesn't have an excuse. I doubt she went from lovey dovey to abusive in between when the kid was born.

 

[BluePhantom]

Well thanks for the links, but i don't care if a woman beats a man.

1.) Don't date bitches.

2.) Once you get hit, leave.

Same goes for women, don't date assholes and leave once you get hit. But women have more of an excuse because of the physical indimidation and the fact that they could be raped.

Unless your buddy knocked her up on a one night stand and had no idea what she was like, he doesn't have an excuse. I doubt she went from lovey dovey to abusive in between when the kid was born.

Actually, yes she did and I hate to tell you this but it's not all that uncommon for a women to undergo some severe emotional and behavioral changes during pregnancy and after delivery because her hormone levels will change dramatically. Postpartum depression can, and often does, manifest in violent behavior that did not exist prior. Additionally, just the new burdens and responsibilities associated with first time parenthood can result in heightened anxiety, frustration, and yes violence that did not occur previously.

So what's the guy supposed to do? Take off and leave his child, that wasn't even a year old at the time, in the care of a woman who had flipped her lid? Or does he stay until he can build a case for custody and then take his child away from the abusive situation? Apparently we know what you would do, but I for one applaud the guy for temporarily enduring the abuse for his child's safety and future.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Well thanks for the links, but i don't care if a woman beats a man.

1.) Don't date bitches.

2.) Once you get hit, leave.

Same goes for women, don't date assholes and leave once you get hit. But women have more of an excuse because of the physical indimidation and the fact that they could be raped.

Unless your buddy knocked her up on a one night stand and had no idea what she was like, he doesn't have an excuse. I doubt she went from lovey dovey to abusive in between when the kid was born.

Actually, yes she did and I hate to tell you this but it's not all that uncommon for a women to undergo some severe emotional and behavioral changes during pregnancy and after delivery because her hormone levels will change dramatically. Postpartum depression can, and often does, manifest in violent behavior that did not exist prior. Additionally, just the new burdens and responsibilities associated with first time parenthood can result in heightened anxiety, frustration, and yes violence that did not occur previously.

So what's the guy supposed to do? Take off and leave his child, that wasn't even a year old at the time, in the care of a woman who had flipped her lid? Or does he stay until he can build a case for custody and then take his child away from the abusive situation? Apparently we know what you would do, but I for one applaud the guy for temporarily enduring the abuse for his child's safety and future.

Sorry I'm going to sound like a dick, but i don't believe you.

I've heard the same story of "he/she was great then morphed into an bitch/asshole" 100 times and it's never been the case. The person just wasn't concerned with their spouse's major flaws until later. They were blinded by looks or money or their own insecurity.

But assuming your story was true. I'd rather go to the extreme of calling the cops over and over again or the extreme of installing a hidden video camera rather than the extreme of letting my wife slap me around and instilling those memories into my child's head. Child sees daddy getting beat up, child thinks that's what's normal.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Any person has the RIGHT and DUTY to defend against another person if that person is threatening life or limb.

A female with a mouth? I have always taught my sons and their friends when growing up that a woman who cannot control her mouth is not a target for violence. Simply ignore the woman forever, and every woman intersted in a man will get the message she can't say whatever she wants whenever she wants without a consequence. Women can't stand being ignored forever.

 

[eots]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-5pum5A5mA]Hollywood Bitch Slaps, Part Thirteen - YouTube[/ame]

 

[BluePhantom]

Sorry I'm going to sound like a dick, but i don't believe you.

Sorry I am going to sound like a dick but I really don't give a fuck if you believe me or not.

I've heard the same story of "he/she was great then morphed into an bitch/asshole" 100 times and it's never been the case. The person just wasn't concerned with their spouse's major flaws until later. They were blinded by looks or money or their own insecurity.

If you say so chief. I am glad we have you here to inform the rest of the world about what goes on in their relationships. Unfortunately the medical profession and statistics disagree with you:

"Of those screening positive for Postpartum Depression, 7% also screened positive for “intimate partner violence” according to the researchers. Also according to the study, 60% of those who screened positive for intimate partner violence also screened positive for Postpartum Depression. an interesting side note is that mothers screening positive for Postpartum Depression in this study were more likely to take their children to the Emergency room. Perhaps this is related to the higher level of anxiety and worry we experience during a Postpartum Mood & Anxiety Disorder."​

Newsflash: Postpartum Depression & Domestic Violence – New study results | My Postpartum Voice

"Symptoms of Postpartum Depression
Fatigue, irregular sleep
Feelings of low self-worth, guilt, or depression
Spontaneous crying
Problems with memory and concentration
Thoughts of violence
Lack of interest in the new child
Delusions or hallucinations
Symptoms appear one week to six months following a birth"​

Postpartum Depression - Symptoms, Books, Info

"It is important to recognize the correlation between post partum depression and violence aganst children.

Although any woman with postpartum depression can have fleeting, frightening thoughts of suicide or harming their babies, some women with rare postpartum psychosis experience these thoughts as urges they feel compelled to act on. If you think you can't keep from hurting yourself, your baby, or someone else, see your health professional immediately or call 911 for emergency medical care."​

Love Our Children

So despite your assertion that no woman flips out after pregnancy....sorry....LOTS do. Not all of them, but a LOT of them most certainly morph into something completely unrecognizable from the woman they were before.

But assuming your story was true. I'd rather go to the extreme of calling the cops over and over again or the extreme of installing a hidden video camera rather than the extreme of letting my wife slap me around and instilling those memories into my child's head. Child sees daddy getting beat up, child thinks that's what's normal.

Why do you think he was trying to get the child away from the situation genius? Maybe he didn't want his child growing up seeing that and thinking it's normal. Maybe he didn't want to run the risk of the woman's anger turning on the child. Gee what a novel concept. Now what you would have done is your business. He handled it the best way he knew how.

 

[High_Gravity]

So I was having a discussion with the wife about if and when it is ever ok for a man to hit a women. Now the stereotypical answer is “never”. But is that really realistic? Let me toss out some scenarios where a man hit a women. Each of these I have personally witnessed (no I wasn’t the one doing the hitting) and in each case I felt the girl got exactly what she deserved.

Example 1: A buddy of mine had a girlfriend who made no secret that in her opinion she could hit him as much as she wanted because the moment he dared to hit back he would go to jail instead of her and no court would ever convict a woman of being abusive toward a man. I mean she actually bragged about it. She beat on that guy like a drum constantly until one day he finally had enough and “returned the treatment”. (Note: He would have simply left her but they had a child together and he couldn’t leave the child with an abusive woman until he could prove in court she was abusive – eventually that did happen.)

Example 2: To make a long story short, a beautiful woman stole our table at a crowded bar. My brother asked her politely to leave several times and offered to buy her a drink if she would depart. She refused every time told him “beautiful women only take orders when they feel like it so there’s not much you can do about it is there?” and then she blew smoke in his face. He asked her to leave again and warned her that if she blew smoke in his face again he would punch her dead in the face. She said “oh really? I dare you”, leaned directly into his face and exhaled a cloud of smoke around my brothers head….he broke her nose.

Example 3: A woman stood behind her boyfriend screaming at this other guy calling him every name in the book, making reference to his questionable parentage…I mean you name it and she said it. Her boyfriend stood between them and although he wasn’t being aggressive toward the other guy neither was he telling his girlfriend to shut the hell up either. Finally her boyfriend said “you will have to go through me first to shut her up”. The guy said “I accept your terms” and after he beat the shit out of her boyfriend he walked up to the women and punched her dead in the mouth and told her “you got your boyfriends ass kicked you should share his pain.”

Now as I said…..these were thing I witnessed where I said to myself “normally I would never endorse violence of any kind let alone against women…..but in this case….the bitch was begging for it.”

I welcome thoughts.

This is a tough area for any man, I would try to walk away from these situations as much as possible unless I have no choice. Sometimes it has to be, the Police for example have to put down women who just won't listen.

 

[High_Gravity]

walk away

Ahhhhhh but that's not always realistic is it? I mean as men we are taught that when things get too hot to walk away, but society teaches women not to let their man go. Keep him there and keep him communicating. So we try to walk away like we are taught and they often won't let us because that's what they are taught.

Man theres so much truth there I don't even know where to start, a co worker of mine in the Military got into an argument with his wife and tried to leave, his wife stood in front of the door and when he got by her she literally jumped on his back, she would not let him leave, when the cops came he got arrested not her.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

So what's the guy supposed to do? Take off and leave his child, that wasn't even a year old at the time, in the care of a woman who had flipped her lid? Or does he stay until he can build a case for custody and then take his child away from the abusive situation? Apparently we know what you would do, but I for one applaud the guy for temporarily enduring the abuse for his child's safety and future.

No, he takes off and takes the kid with him. Last I checked it was his kid too. If she wants him back then she can go to the courts and file suit. That is exactly what I did. My ex-wife got involved in substance abuse shortly after our son was born (and I wouldn't doubt she had done it before) and when it became clear that she wasn't going to make the effort to get over it that is exactly what I did. I took my son and left. After a few court hearings I was granted full custody and we now live eight states away and have absolutely nothing to do with her.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Sorry I'm going to sound like a dick, but i don't believe you.

Sorry I am going to sound like a dick but I really don't give a fuck if you believe me or not.

I've heard the same story of "he/she was great then morphed into an bitch/asshole" 100 times and it's never been the case. The person just wasn't concerned with their spouse's major flaws until later. They were blinded by looks or money or their own insecurity.

If you say so chief. I am glad we have you here to inform the rest of the world about what goes on in their relationships. Unfortunately the medical profession and statistics disagree with you:

"Of those screening positive for Postpartum Depression, 7% also screened positive for “intimate partner violence” according to the researchers. Also according to the study, 60% of those who screened positive for intimate partner violence also screened positive for Postpartum Depression. an interesting side note is that mothers screening positive for Postpartum Depression in this study were more likely to take their children to the Emergency room. Perhaps this is related to the higher level of anxiety and worry we experience during a Postpartum Mood & Anxiety Disorder."​

Newsflash: Postpartum Depression & Domestic Violence – New study results | My Postpartum Voice

"Symptoms of Postpartum Depression
Fatigue, irregular sleep
Feelings of low self-worth, guilt, or depression
Spontaneous crying
Problems with memory and concentration
Thoughts of violence
Lack of interest in the new child
Delusions or hallucinations
Symptoms appear one week to six months following a birth"​

Postpartum Depression - Symptoms, Books, Info

"It is important to recognize the correlation between post partum depression and violence aganst children.

Although any woman with postpartum depression can have fleeting, frightening thoughts of suicide or harming their babies, some women with rare postpartum psychosis experience these thoughts as urges they feel compelled to act on. If you think you can't keep from hurting yourself, your baby, or someone else, see your health professional immediately or call 911 for emergency medical care."​

Love Our Children

So despite your assertion that no woman flips out after pregnancy....sorry....LOTS do. Not all of them, but a LOT of them most certainly morph into something completely unrecognizable from the woman they were before.

But assuming your story was true. I'd rather go to the extreme of calling the cops over and over again or the extreme of installing a hidden video camera rather than the extreme of letting my wife slap me around and instilling those memories into my child's head. Child sees daddy getting beat up, child thinks that's what's normal.

Why do you think he was trying to get the child away from the situation genius? Maybe he didn't want his child growing up seeing that and thinking it's normal. Maybe he didn't want to run the risk of the woman's anger turning on the child. Gee what a novel concept. Now what you would have done is your business. He handled it the best way he knew how.

The links say nothing about whether or not the woman was abusive before the child. Sure maybe that depression can cause a woman with bad issues to become a woman with horrendous issues. But I'm still not buying a great woman morphing into a monster, and your link doesn't show that.

Then he should've done the things I outlined. I know you're defensive about your buddy hence the childish insults, but he's an idiot. We all have a friend or two who does idiotic things. He's yours.

 

[High_Gravity]

So what's the guy supposed to do? Take off and leave his child, that wasn't even a year old at the time, in the care of a woman who had flipped her lid? Or does he stay until he can build a case for custody and then take his child away from the abusive situation? Apparently we know what you would do, but I for one applaud the guy for temporarily enduring the abuse for his child's safety and future.

No, he takes off and takes the kid with him. Last I checked it was his kid too. If she wants him back then she can go to the courts and file suit. That is exactly what I did. My ex-wife got involved in substance abuse shortly after our son was born (and I wouldn't doubt she had done it before) and when it became clear that she wasn't going to make the effort to get over it that is exactly what I did. I took my son and left. After a few court hearings I was granted full custody and we now live eight states away and have absolutely nothing to do with her.

Alot of people don't have the money to leave, I had to live with my ex wife for a year before I saved up enough money to move out and she saved up enough money to move back to the islands, let me tell you living with a woman who is pretty much your ex just counting the days until she leaves is a living hell. I was in the Military at the time and they forbid me from throwing her out too.

 

[BluePhantom]

No, he takes off and takes the kid with him. Last I checked it was his kid too. If she wants him back then she can go to the courts and file suit. That is exactly what I did. My ex-wife got involved in substance abuse shortly after our son was born (and I wouldn't doubt she had done it before) and when it became clear that she wasn't going to make the effort to get over it that is exactly what I did. I took my son and left. After a few court hearings I was granted full custody and we now live eight states away and have absolutely nothing to do with her.

In many states that's considered kidnapping. It's not always possible.

 

[BluePhantom]

The links say nothing about whether or not the woman was abusive before the child. Sure maybe that depression can cause a woman with bad issues to become a woman with horrendous issues. But I'm still not buying a great woman morphing into a monster, and your link doesn't show that.

Well if I am forced to choose between the medical research and the degree to which you happen to buy it, I will go with the documentation.

Then he should've done the things I outlined. I know you're defensive about your buddy hence the childish insults, but he's an idiot. We all have a friend or two who does idiotic things. He's yours.

I seem to recall that you were the one who started with the childish insults, chum. Regardless, you are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding his actions. I think he did the right thing and applaud him....you are certainly within your rights to disagree.