Is there such thing as "universal morality"?

[ding]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

 

[ding]

Your value to this world is to serve as an example of what not to be.

Ya, not to be you and revel in deformed babies.

The only one who is victimizing special needs children is you. You are literally using their disability to provide pleasure to you.

You think deformed babies are a good thing.

I believe their lives add more value to this world than your life does.

You think that it’s a good thing that babies suffer terrible pain.

For you to believe it is a bad thing you must have some idea of what good is, right?

You are literally arguing for a universal right and wrong. It seems that you expect everyone to understand and accept this as a universal truth, right?

 

[ding]

A god that makes deformed and retarded babies couldn’t possibly have made universal morality. It’s impossible for such a bastard to do that.

But God believes their lives have value. You don’t.

You can’t prove what a god believes. Maybe god makes bad things on purpose.

And maybe God is testing you.

More likely, you have no clue.

It is you who has no clue. I have offered three explanations. You have offered none. So you are the one who literally has no clue.

Now let me offer you a fourth possible explanation. Maybe God is trying to achieve certain results under certain conditions.

 

[Mindful]

Have you been here before, Ding?

As in reincarnation?

I know you were here yesterday.

 

[alang1216]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

 

[ding]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[ding]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

Natural laws do not exist as matter and energy and it is not possible for matter and energy to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. And it is not possible for matter and energy to exist outside of space and time because the presence of matter and energy creates space and time. So we know that natural laws and matter and energy are not equivalent which is what you seem to be suggesting. And since matter and energy follow natural laws, natural laws must exist independent of matter and energy.

 

[Hollie]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

There is nothing that prevents a cyclical universe and that addresses the religious claim that there must have been various gods to create existence.

What religionists don’t address is the infinite hierarchy of gods who created the lower level gods who in turn ..... and so on. There is no reason to accept the religious claim that one or more gods are “eternal” while the universe cannot also be eternal.

 

[ding]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

There is nothing that prevents a cyclical universe and that addresses the religious claim that there must have been various gods to create existence.

What religionists don’t address is the infinite hierarchy of gods who created the lower level gods who in turn ..... and so on. There is no reason to accept the religious claim that one or more gods are “eternal” while the universe cannot also be eternal.

Actually there is something which prevents a cyclical universe; the Second Law of Thermodynamics prevents a cyclical universe.

The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

 

[alang1216]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

So what existed before the BB? You may say 'spirit', I'm willing to say, I don't know. Maybe the universe is like a volcano that periodically erupts. Eventually the new land created by the eruption cools, reaches thermal equilibrium, and can support life. The volcano may be dormant for millennia. Until the next eruption stats the process over again. If you lived there and didn't know about the volcano you'd have no clue how your land was created.

 

[Taz]

A god that makes deformed and retarded babies couldn’t possibly have made universal morality. It’s impossible for such a bastard to do that.

But God believes their lives have value. You don’t.

You can’t prove what a god believes. Maybe god makes bad things on purpose.

And maybe God is testing you.

More likely, you have no clue.

It is you who has no clue. I have offered three explanations. You have offered none. So you are the one who literally has no clue.

Now let me offer you a fourth possible explanation. Maybe God is trying to achieve certain results under certain conditions.

So god is making deformed and retarded babies on purpose. Gawd, you’re stoopid.

 

[Hollie]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

So what existed before the BB? You may say 'spirit', I'm willing to say, I don't know. Maybe the universe is like a volcano that periodically erupts. Eventually the new land created by the eruption cools, reaches thermal equilibrium, and can support life. The volcano may be dormant for millennia. Until the next eruption stats the process over again. If you lived there and didn't know about the volcano you'd have no clue how your land was created.

There’s nothing to suggest that there is anything supernatural, “magical” or even special about existence. Natural law is the antithesis of "gods’ and asserted spirit worlds. One may think of “chance” (as it relates to life on earth), as randomness, when in fact natural law is decidedly non-random. All things being equal, natural law solves the same problems the same way every time. This invariance is the required property for order to emerge from chaos.

 

[Taz]

Ya, not to be you and revel in deformed babies.

The only one who is victimizing special needs children is you. You are literally using their disability to provide pleasure to you.

You think deformed babies are a good thing.

I believe their lives add more value to this world than your life does.

You think that it’s a good thing that babies suffer terrible pain.

For you to believe it is a bad thing you must have some idea of what good is, right?

You are literally arguing for a universal right and wrong. It seems that you expect everyone to understand and accept this as a universal truth, right?

No, nobody has to agree with me, especially a jackass like you.

 

[ding]

If spirit created the material world then why couldn’t spirit alter the material world?

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

So what existed before the BB? You may say 'spirit', I'm willing to say, I don't know. Maybe the universe is like a volcano that periodically erupts. Eventually the new land created by the eruption cools, reaches thermal equilibrium, and can support life. The volcano may be dormant for millennia. Until the next eruption stats the process over again. If you lived there and didn't know about the volcano you'd have no clue how your land was created.

The universe is not in thermal equilibrium. If the universe were in thermal equilibrium there would be no life or possibility for life. Thermal equilibrium is trillions upon trillions of years away.

There is nothing preventing the creation of new universes. We wouldn’t know about other universes because they would be outside of our space and time. Space and time is curved because of matter and energy. So we can’t travel or see beyond the curvature of our space and time.

We do know of something which existed before our space and time. The laws of nature existed before our space and time. We know this because for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do there must be rules or laws in place to govern what matter and energy do.

All matter and energy that is created must exist within some space and time because the creation of matter and energy creates space and time. But because the laws of nature are not matter and energy the laws of nature can exist outside of space and time.

I think your reluctance to accept what I am discussing is your perception of God. There is no thing which can describe God because God is no thing. The closest I can come to understanding the nature of God is that God is consciousness without form. Consciousness without form is no thing. It is not made up of matter or energy. Therefore, it can exist outside of space and time.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. Therefore, no thing created space and time. God is no thing.

 

[ding]

Have you been here before, Ding?

As in reincarnation?

I know you were here yesterday.

Not to my knowledge.

 

[Mindful]

Have you been here before, Ding?

As in reincarnation?

I know you were here yesterday.

Not to my knowledge.

Do you believe in reincarnation? I was watching a TV debate about it earlier.

 

[ding]

If pigs had wings they'd be able to fly.

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

So what existed before the BB? You may say 'spirit', I'm willing to say, I don't know. Maybe the universe is like a volcano that periodically erupts. Eventually the new land created by the eruption cools, reaches thermal equilibrium, and can support life. The volcano may be dormant for millennia. Until the next eruption stats the process over again. If you lived there and didn't know about the volcano you'd have no clue how your land was created.

There’s nothing to suggest that there is anything supernatural, “magical” or even special about existence. Natural law is the antithesis of "gods’ and your spirit worlds. One may think of “chance” (as it relates to life on earth), as randomness, when in fact natural law is decidedly non-random. All things being equal, natural law solves the same problems the same way every time. This invariance is the required property for order to emerge from chaos.

To me supernatural means things outside of our realm of reality. I'm sure to God, God is perfectly natural because God is within the realm of his reality. But inside our realm of reality we do know about things like intelligence and consciousness, right? It's just that inside of our realm of reality those concepts are related to minds with bodies. We can't relate to consciousness and intelligence without bodies. But it is not possible for consciousness and intelligence to exist outside of space and time unless it is without bodies. So as implausible as it is for me to accept, I am afraid that the only thing that could create space and time is consciousness without a body.

 

[ding]

Have you been here before, Ding?

As in reincarnation?

I know you were here yesterday.

Not to my knowledge.

Do you believe in reincarnation? I was watching a TV debate about it earlier.

I don't but Taz does which seems odd to me. I'm not saying it is impossible, I just don't think it is a good idea to live your life with that expectation.

 

[Taz]

There’s only two choices; either the material world was created by spirit or the material world created itself.

Why not choice number 3, the material world has always existed. Our iteration of it may have been created at the Big Bang, but that may just be the latest in an endless chain of universes. You think God is eternal, maybe it is the material world/natural law that is eternal?

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

So what existed before the BB? You may say 'spirit', I'm willing to say, I don't know. Maybe the universe is like a volcano that periodically erupts. Eventually the new land created by the eruption cools, reaches thermal equilibrium, and can support life. The volcano may be dormant for millennia. Until the next eruption stats the process over again. If you lived there and didn't know about the volcano you'd have no clue how your land was created.

There’s nothing to suggest that there is anything supernatural, “magical” or even special about existence. Natural law is the antithesis of "gods’ and your spirit worlds. One may think of “chance” (as it relates to life on earth), as randomness, when in fact natural law is decidedly non-random. All things being equal, natural law solves the same problems the same way every time. This invariance is the required property for order to emerge from chaos.

To me supernatural means things outside of our realm of reality. I'm sure to God, God is perfectly natural because God is within the realm of his reality. But inside our realm of reality we do know about things like intelligence and consciousness, right? It's just that inside of our realm of reality those concepts are related to minds with bodies. We can't relate to consciousness and intelligence without bodies. But it is not possible for consciousness and intelligence to exist outside of space and time unless it is without bodies. So as implausible as it is for me to accept, I am afraid that the only thing that could create space and time is consciousness without a body.

Gawd, that's stoopid.

 

[Taz]

Have you been here before, Ding?

As in reincarnation?

I know you were here yesterday.

Not to my knowledge.

Do you believe in reincarnation? I was watching a TV debate about it earlier.

I don't but Taz does which seems odd to me. I'm not saying it is impossible, I just don't think it is a good idea to live your life with that expectation.

What's your expectation?