Is There a Problem Between Israel and the Palestinians?

[Elvis Obama]

We can't say, can we? We can't say because we can't agree on who the Palestinians are and whether or not there is a State of Israel. That's pretty sad. We can't even have a discussion about why we can't have a discussion.

Personally, I think that's unfortunate. There are subjects worthy of discussion. Israel's identification as both a democracy and a Jewish state. The general level of Arab culture. The real animus underlying the conflict.

What we have instead is a strange microcosm of the actual conflict playing out right here. Just as pointless. Just as zero-sum. Hundreds of thousands of posts to say, what?

 

[Shusha]

If it were just a practical problem, it would be solved already. Its a problem of conflicting ideologies. Specifically, its a problem of the ideology of the right of Israel to exist as the Jewish National Homeland vs. the resistance to or denial of that right.

And no, its not a problem of mutual denial (though I would say it is becoming more so as time goes by and Israel and the Jewish people get tired of the lack of State-building by the Palestinians). Its a one-sided rejection of the idea of a Jewish National Homeland.

And its measured easily enough in this microcosm by the remarkably few people willing to actually try to grind out a practical solution to the problem.

 

[montelatici]

How can the Palestinians build a state when they are ruled by Israeli Jews? The Israelis have no inclination to allow a sovereign state to exist within the area they currently control. The Israeli Jews reject the right of non-Jews to have self-rule anywhere in the territory they currently control. There is no solution, either the non-Jews leave or the Jews leave.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

 

[Shusha]

How can the Palestinians build a state when they are ruled by Israeli Jews? The Israelis have no inclination to allow a sovereign state to exist within the area they currently control. The Israeli Jews reject the right of non-Jews to have self-rule anywhere in the territory they currently control. There is no solution, either the non-Jews leave or the Jews leave.

More Palestinian pathological rejection of any kind of responsibility for their own behaviour with an undercurrent of antisemitic "we won't live with the Jews".

Israel has no problem with a sovereign state of Palestine. It has a problem with a hostile state of Palestine. And you demonstrate that quite well.

 

[turzovka]

How can the Palestinians build a state when they are ruled by Israeli Jews? The Israelis have no inclination to allow a sovereign state to exist within the area they currently control. The Israeli Jews reject the right of non-Jews to have self-rule anywhere in the territory they currently control. There is no solution, either the non-Jews leave or the Jews leave.

More Palestinian pathological rejection of any kind of responsibility for their own behaviour with an undercurrent of antisemitic "we won't live with the Jews".

Israel has no problem with a sovereign state of Palestine. It has a problem with a hostile state of Palestine. And you demonstrate that quite well.

One non-starter is that the Arabs / Islam will not even acknowledge the truth on any facts that do not favor their position. The only “facts” they speak of concerning the Jews or Israel are those things Israel did to them “to defend themselves” -- but as they term it, “to keep oppressing the people they stole their land from.”

So why should anyone be surprised we will never get anywhere when all they do is lie?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Unfortunately for you, this is not Philosophy 101, but is instead a real political problem. Like Kondor has said, Israel has acquired land thru blood, sweat , tears, toil and money. It is also a member state of the U.N., and acquired that recognition thru a vote of all the nations in the world at that time.

 

[montelatici]

How can the Palestinians build a state when they are ruled by Israeli Jews? The Israelis have no inclination to allow a sovereign state to exist within the area they currently control. The Israeli Jews reject the right of non-Jews to have self-rule anywhere in the territory they currently control. There is no solution, either the non-Jews leave or the Jews leave.

More Palestinian pathological rejection of any kind of responsibility for their own behaviour with an undercurrent of antisemitic "we won't live with the Jews".

Israel has no problem with a sovereign state of Palestine. It has a problem with a hostile state of Palestine. And you demonstrate that quite well.

One non-starter is that the Arabs / Islam will not even acknowledge the truth on any facts that do not favor their position. The only “facts” they speak of concerning the Jews or Israel are those things Israel did to them “to defend themselves” -- but as they term it, “to keep oppressing the people they stole their land from.”

So why should anyone be surprised we will never get anywhere when all they do is lie?

What facts do not favor the Christian's and Muslim's position regarding the land they were evicted from?

 

[Elvis Obama]

How can the Palestinians build a state when they are ruled by Israeli Jews? The Israelis have no inclination to allow a sovereign state to exist within the area they currently control. The Israeli Jews reject the right of non-Jews to have self-rule anywhere in the territory they currently control. There is no solution, either the non-Jews leave or the Jews leave.

That's clear, up to a point. You want war. When all other solutions fail, all that is left is war. Rather impractical as a solution, but if the two sides cannot negotiate on the basis of an agreed upon goal, then negotiation is pointless. This, of course, is not a negotiating table, it's a discussion forum, and you are not the Palestinian people and I am not Israel.

Your position, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the conflict is irreducible? Is it definable? There is no point in discussing a problem you can't articulate clearly. There's also no point in discussing a problem you regard as beyond negotiation. If you're not posting with the intent of discussing a defined problem with possible solutions, then you're just hurling insults back and forth.

 

[Shusha]

That's clear, up to a point. You want war. When all other solutions fail, all that is left is war. Rather impractical as a solution, but if the two sides cannot negotiate on the basis of an agreed upon goal, then negotiation is pointless. This, of course, is not a negotiating table, it's a discussion forum, and you are not the Palestinian people and I am not Israel.

Your position, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the conflict is irreducible? Is it definable? There is no point in discussing a problem you can't articulate clearly. There's also no point in discussing a problem you regard as beyond negotiation. If you're not posting with the intent of discussing a defined problem with possible solutions, then you're just hurling insults back and forth.

Seems to me Monte is offering a solution: move all the Palestinians in the territory to one area and move all the Jewish people in the territory to another. Its practical. And its what was done 100 years ago when solving this type of problem. Its viewed today as immoral, but Boston (who has much the same idea) has a point that might be the most humane way to solve the problem.

 

[Elvis Obama]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Well then, man the battlements, I guess, or recruit for Jihadis. My question, and it's a simple one, is what is the point of going back and forth in the manner that you do? Like, oh, I don't know, Palestinian kids hurling rocks across a boundary line? It seems rather far removed from the notion of defining a problem and then suggesting solutions to that problem. That is a rational use of a discussion forum, imo. Hurling digital stones seems a rather pointless use of bandwidth.

 

[Elvis Obama]

That's clear, up to a point. You want war. When all other solutions fail, all that is left is war. Rather impractical as a solution, but if the two sides cannot negotiate on the basis of an agreed upon goal, then negotiation is pointless. This, of course, is not a negotiating table, it's a discussion forum, and you are not the Palestinian people and I am not Israel.

Your position, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the conflict is irreducible? Is it definable? There is no point in discussing a problem you can't articulate clearly. There's also no point in discussing a problem you regard as beyond negotiation. If you're not posting with the intent of discussing a defined problem with possible solutions, then you're just hurling insults back and forth.

Seems to me Monte is offering a solution: move all the Palestinians in the territory to one area and move all the Jewish people in the territory to another. Its practical. And its what was done 100 years ago when solving this type of problem. Its viewed today as immoral, but Boston (who has much the same idea) has a point that might be the most humane way to solve the problem.

Well, the reason it's regarded as immoral is because it's got a guaranteed body count. However, morality is often an insufficient force to counteract the exigencies of social tectonics. When people of one culture declare themselves incompatible with another culture, the results are often seismic in nature.

Then what? You've got bad neighbors. India and Pakistan. Nuclear brinksmanship.

A hundred years ago we proved what we can't do. We can't affix a veneer of modernity on a people not fit for that role. Some people say that we created countries without any appreciation for the sectarian rifts we were enclosing within those borders. Others suggest that these conflicts were intended to keep the Arabs squabbling amongst themselves and out of our hair. We were managing them, because they were in need of management. They still are.

I repeat, you cannot have a solution without first having an agreed upon, well defined problem. What is it? Who's got it? How many definitions of the problem are there?

 

[USAF 2023]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Yawn...Translation: Israe does not have the Right to Exist so the Palestinians do NOT Ihave to accept the " Two State " Solution" " Palestine" was never a Country. It was a territory .The failure lies with the Palestinians

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Unfortunately for you, this is not Philosophy 101, but is instead a real political problem. Like Kondor has said, Israel has acquired land thru blood, sweat , tears, toil and money. It is also a member state of the U.N., and acquired that recognition thru a vote of all the nations in the world at that time.

I notice you made no attempt to refute my claim.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Yawn...Translation: Israe does not have the Right to Exist so the Palestinians do NOT Ihave to accept the " Two State " Solution" " Palestine" was never a Country. It was a territory .The failure lies with the Palestinians

Nice deflection there big guy.

 

[Elvis Obama]

I didn't expect much response to this thread, and I got what I expected. FWIW, I don't get it. Is it insanity? Someone coming here to write tens of thousands of posts without content or purpose. Just a means of expressing fanatical hatred?

There are millions of people involved in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. They suffer because of our madness and stupidity. All we can to about it here is talk about it, not fight a proxy battle. Try to analyze the situation rationally, and to the greatest degree possible, dispassionately.

 

[USAF 2023]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Yawn...Translation: Israe does not have the Right to Exist so the Palestinians do NOT Ihave to accept the " Two State " Solution" " Palestine" was never a Country. It was a territory .The failure lies with the Palestinians

Nice deflection there big guy.

No deflection. Why should Israel agree to anything that will eventually destroy them and annex them to " Palestine?" You are the one who is deflecting.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem with Israel is that it has never legitimately acquired any land. That places Israel inside Palestine. Obviously the Palestinians have a problem with that.

Yawn...Translation: Israe does not have the Right to Exist so the Palestinians do NOT Ihave to accept the " Two State " Solution" " Palestine" was never a Country. It was a territory .The failure lies with the Palestinians

Nice deflection there big guy.

No deflection. Why should Israel agree to anything that will eventually destroy them and annex them to " Palestine?" You are the one who is deflecting.

You are still not addressing my post.