Is There A Free Market Answer To Education?

[Polk]

Diuretic - under NCLB, our school is a district in need of improvement because our special ed and black kids aren't passing the state test. Mind you, a black disabled poor child counts three times under those three categories. At the same time, we had three students get into Ivy League schools last year and our AP scores are outstanding. There is no simple answer because we don't even know what a "bad" school is. NCLB had good intentions, but without national standards and a naotional test, any comparative research is flawed. And I'm not sure we want a nationalized education system. You think its expensive now?

I'd argue the exact opposite. Reducing local control would mean resources could be employed more effectively.

 

[Polk]

You cant change the parents but you can make the classes smaller and pay the teachers better so you can retain the good teachers who can easily make better money in non teaching jobs.

WHy is it people think that some mediocre so so teacher is suddenly going to become Mr Doolittle if you throw more money at him?
Teachers get paid plenty. I would bet the good ones who quit do so out of frustration with a hide bound bureaucratic system that stifles anything related to innovation. And the system insures some very good teachers never get into it by insisting on bogus "teachers credentials" before hiring.

You're absolutely correct: More Money is the LAST thing the education system needs.

The system is overburdened, trying to solve every social ill, prepare every kid for college.

Until 1918, every state didn't even offer public education, then it only went up through 8th grade. The purpose was simple: Basic Reading, Writing, Arthimetic, and Citizenship.

The Public System needs to offer less:

1. Bulldoze all Sports Complexs, Swimming Pools, Tennis Courts, Band-stands, Arenas, Stadiums.
2. Limit compulsory education to age 14.
3. Limit Highschools to Vocational Study courses Only.

with one exception:
4. Year Round School (4 week vacations)

I agree about year-round schooling and getting rid of the focus on athletics, but why limit high schools to vocational study?

 

[Samson]

WHy is it people think that some mediocre so so teacher is suddenly going to become Mr Doolittle if you throw more money at him?
Teachers get paid plenty. I would bet the good ones who quit do so out of frustration with a hide bound bureaucratic system that stifles anything related to innovation. And the system insures some very good teachers never get into it by insisting on bogus "teachers credentials" before hiring.

You're absolutely correct: More Money is the LAST thing the education system needs.

The system is overburdened, trying to solve every social ill, prepare every kid for college.

Until 1918, every state didn't even offer public education, then it only went up through 8th grade. The purpose was simple: Basic Reading, Writing, Arthimetic, and Citizenship.

The Public System needs to offer less:

1. Bulldoze all Sports Complexs, Swimming Pools, Tennis Courts, Band-stands, Arenas, Stadiums.
2. Limit compulsory education to age 14.
3. Limit Highschools to Vocational Study courses Only.

with one exception:
4. Year Round School (4 week vacations)

I agree about year-round schooling and getting rid of the focus on athletics, but why limit high schools to vocational study?

Our schools were never supposed to prepare anyone for college.

College courses should be taught.....IN COLLEGE!! Instead of kids waisting 4 years fucking around taking a "College Prep Curriculum" in High School, THEN going to college an extra year because your High Schools are no preparation, just go straight to college.

Some kids are doing this already, taking courses in high school for which they receive college credit. Why should I pay for this extra? If they want college credit, let them take out a loan, or get a fucking job, or let their parents pay!

 

[random3434]

A few thoughts:

We are on "probation" because of NCLB-the special ed students didn't make enough passing scores on the state standardized test last year. I have 3 students with IQ's of 53, 57 and 59, and the rest are in the 60's and 70's. They ALL have to take this test and are expected to pass. Uh huh. To some it would be like us taking the test in Latin. Why am I, and our school, being punished for this?


On Line Teaching/Learning/Testing:

Who is to monitor the child's knowledge, and making sure the parent isn't doing the work or helping little Molly or Billy along with the answers. You know there would be some parents doing just that, instead of letting them learn on their own. But it has potential, I'm sure it is great for the homeschooling set.


Parents/Teachers/Students

Hold Parents accountable, and don't put all the blame on the teachers.


Administration:

Too top heavy, get rid of a lot of the paper pushers that get paid way too much for doing much of nothing, and spend that money on the student/classroom/supplies/technology.

 

[Polk]

You're absolutely correct: More Money is the LAST thing the education system needs.

The system is overburdened, trying to solve every social ill, prepare every kid for college.

Until 1918, every state didn't even offer public education, then it only went up through 8th grade. The purpose was simple: Basic Reading, Writing, Arthimetic, and Citizenship.

The Public System needs to offer less:

1. Bulldoze all Sports Complexs, Swimming Pools, Tennis Courts, Band-stands, Arenas, Stadiums.
2. Limit compulsory education to age 14.
3. Limit Highschools to Vocational Study courses Only.

with one exception:
4. Year Round School (4 week vacations)

I agree about year-round schooling and getting rid of the focus on athletics, but why limit high schools to vocational study?

Our schools were never supposed to prepare anyone for college.

College courses should be taught.....IN COLLEGE!! Instead of kids waisting 4 years fucking around taking a "College Prep Curriculum" in High School, THEN going to college an extra year because your High Schools are no preparation, just go straight to college.

Some kids are doing this already, taking courses in high school for which they receive college credit. Why should I pay for this extra? If they want college credit, let them take out a loan, or get a fucking job, or let their parents pay!

And you really think 14 year olds are prepared to go off to university?

 

[Samson]

I agree about year-round schooling and getting rid of the focus on athletics, but why limit high schools to vocational study?

Our schools were never supposed to prepare anyone for college.

College courses should be taught.....IN COLLEGE!! Instead of kids waisting 4 years fucking around taking a "College Prep Curriculum" in High School, THEN going to college an extra year because your High Schools are no preparation, just go straight to college.

Some kids are doing this already, taking courses in high school for which they receive college credit. Why should I pay for this extra? If they want college credit, let them take out a loan, or get a fucking job, or let their parents pay!

And you really think 14 year olds are prepared to go off to university?

Some, yes. Others, no.

I don't think that the difference between the maturity of a 14 year old, and a 17 or 18 year old is enough justification to warehouse everyone until they're done with the 12th grade. Its certainly not worth the cost.

And, many of these 18 year olds are attending local community colleges because they are not financially, and/or intellectually prepared, or mature enough to "go off" anywhere, and they're living at home.

 

[random3434]

Samson, my daughter is pretty mature for her age, but there is NO WAY IN HELL she is ready to be shipped off to college to live in a dorm. Hell, a lot of 18-19 year olds aren't either.

 

[Polk]

Our schools were never supposed to prepare anyone for college.

College courses should be taught.....IN COLLEGE!! Instead of kids waisting 4 years fucking around taking a "College Prep Curriculum" in High School, THEN going to college an extra year because your High Schools are no preparation, just go straight to college.

Some kids are doing this already, taking courses in high school for which they receive college credit. Why should I pay for this extra? If they want college credit, let them take out a loan, or get a fucking job, or let their parents pay!

And you really think 14 year olds are prepared to go off to university?

Some, yes. Others, no.

I don't think that the difference between the maturity of a 14 year old, and a 17 or 18 year old is enough justification to warehouse everyone until they're done with the 12th grade. Its certainly not worth the cost.

And, many of these 18 year olds are attending local community colleges because they are not financially, and/or intellectually prepared, or mature enough to "go off" anywhere, and they're living at home.

It's not just a warehousing function. It's also for further education. All the baseline knowledge required to really function in university.

 

[Samson]

And you really think 14 year olds are prepared to go off to university?

Some, yes. Others, no.

I don't think that the difference between the maturity of a 14 year old, and a 17 or 18 year old is enough justification to warehouse everyone until they're done with the 12th grade. Its certainly not worth the cost.

And, many of these 18 year olds are attending local community colleges because they are not financially, and/or intellectually prepared, or mature enough to "go off" anywhere, and they're living at home.

It's not just a warehousing function. It's also for further education. All the baseline knowledge required to really function in university.

Hmmm.....yes, perhaps.

Let's accept your premise, which is certainly debateable based on the number of Highschool graduates that take courses in college to acquire "all the baseline knowledge required," to speak nothing of those university freshman that fail their first year.

American Public Schools are not designed, nor were they ever intended, to be College Prep Schools. The Free Market offers opportunities for students to prepare for college. It is called "Community College." The only reason 14 year olds do not attend these schools is because it is against the law: they (or really, their parents) are compelled by statute to remain in Public school until they're 18yo or they graduate. This is not only a waste of public funds, but also a waste of time for many 14, 15, 16, and 17 year olds.

 

[Polk]

So with families struggling to pay for four years of college, your suggestion is send them a bill for four more.

 

[The Rabbi]

Diuretic - under NCLB, our school is a district in need of improvement because our special ed and black kids aren't passing the state test. Mind you, a black disabled poor child counts three times under those three categories. At the same time, we had three students get into Ivy League schools last year and our AP scores are outstanding. There is no simple answer because we don't even know what a "bad" school is. NCLB had good intentions, but without national standards and a naotional test, any comparative research is flawed. And I'm not sure we want a nationalized education system. You think its expensive now?

I'd argue the exact opposite. Reducing local control would mean resources could be employed more effectively.

How is that supposed to work?

 

[Samson]

So with families struggling to pay for four years of college, your suggestion is send them a bill for four more.

No one is forced to go to college. But, if you're saying that everyone is Entitled to 4 years of college (despite having spent no time in the military, e.g. GI Bill), then why not let Public School last through the 16th grade?

Its Their kids, and Their choice how they spend Their resources.

Public Resources, however, should be spent on Public Schooling, which, like I said, is not designed to be a College Prep School.

 

[Samson]

Samson, my daughter is pretty mature for her age, but there is NO WAY IN HELL she is ready to be shipped off to college to live in a dorm. Hell, a lot of 18-19 year olds aren't either.

My Dear Madame,

You will not feel completely secure "shipping" (is she a Cheese Log?) Mini-EZ off to college at ANY Time. She could be 35 years old and you'd still be reluctant to let her go.

But, I too have kids. I'd think that The Free Market would prevail and you and I would have the choice of sending them to a local community college or a boarding school. Or they could get a job cashiering or picking cabbages: or they could continue at a Vocational High School.

Keeping them locked away into the present high school is both a public waste of funds and a tragic waste of their time.

 

[xsited1]

Is There A Free Market Answer To Education?

Of course there is!

Obama's children: Off to private school at a cost of $29,000 each | Midwest Voices

 

[Truthmatters]

When you increase the pay of teacher to better reflect the current pay scale of people with degrees then you can attract better skilled people into the field.

How much do they pay those teachers at the private schools?

 

[Samson]

When you increase the pay of teacher to better reflect the current pay scale of people with degrees then you can attract better skilled people into the field.

How much do they pay those teachers at the private schools?

Teachers are public servants, and as Government employees, are paid very well (since you're interested, research the average pay of a 1st year Teacher vs the pay of a 2nd Lt. in the Army)

Also, since a teacher works only 9 of 12 months during the year, multiply the pay by 4/3 to annualize it.

Private school teachers generally earn less than public school teachers, but it depends: e.g. Some private schools allow free on campus housing, the worth of which depends on the local alternatives.

 

[Polk]

Diuretic - under NCLB, our school is a district in need of improvement because our special ed and black kids aren't passing the state test. Mind you, a black disabled poor child counts three times under those three categories. At the same time, we had three students get into Ivy League schools last year and our AP scores are outstanding. There is no simple answer because we don't even know what a "bad" school is. NCLB had good intentions, but without national standards and a naotional test, any comparative research is flawed. And I'm not sure we want a nationalized education system. You think its expensive now?

I'd argue the exact opposite. Reducing local control would mean resources could be employed more effectively.

How is that supposed to work?

Because, currently, you have a bunch of tiny communities who can't effective serve certain populations. If you have a rural area, even where the high school has 500 students, you don't really have enough students for a vigorous IB program or a broad selection of AP classes.

 

[Polk]

So with families struggling to pay for four years of college, your suggestion is send them a bill for four more.

No one is forced to go to college. But, if you're saying that everyone is Entitled to 4 years of college (despite having spent no time in the military, e.g. GI Bill), then why not let Public School last through the 16th grade?

Its Their kids, and Their choice how they spend Their resources.

Public Resources, however, should be spent on Public Schooling, which, like I said, is not designed to be a College Prep School.

So basically, "get an education if you're rich, but otherwise, fuck you".

 

[Polk]

When you increase the pay of teacher to better reflect the current pay scale of people with degrees then you can attract better skilled people into the field.

How much do they pay those teachers at the private schools?

I don't know about the rest of the country, but around here they're actually paid less on average.

 

[Polk]

When you increase the pay of teacher to better reflect the current pay scale of people with degrees then you can attract better skilled people into the field.

How much do they pay those teachers at the private schools?

Teachers are public servants, and as Government employees, are paid very well (since you're interested, research the average pay of a 1st year Teacher vs the pay of a 2nd Lt. in the Army)

Also, since a teacher works only 9 of 12 months during the year, multiply the pay by 4/3 to annualize it.

Teachers aren't very well paid. The average teacher is paid $47602 a year. If you think that's higher (or even at the average) for all people with bachelor degrees, you're mistaken.

Let's compare a starting teacher to a second lieutenant. Starting pay for teachers is about $32,000 a year. A second lieutenant starts out making the same amount. The only difference is a second lieutenant gets a lot of extra compensation a teacher doesn't: extra pay for the purposes of purchasing food and housing, discounted products via base exchanges, tuition assistance/payment of student loans).

Teachers work more than nine months out of the year. You assume they only work when the students are in school, forgetting the pre and post year planning. Also, while they do have a month or two off during the summer, they also work longer hours during the year. Not only are they in the classroom seven hours a day, they're spending countless more grading papers, meeting with parents, writing lesson plans, etc.