Is the Stock Market Legitimate????

[kyzr]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

 

[Flopper]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

If by legitimate you mean a fair market where buyers and seller can be confident that they are getting a fair price for stocks based on free market bids, the answer is yes. But if by legitimate you mean getting fair and impartial advice, then maybe, maybe not. Anytime you rely on investment advice you got to be very careful. If by legitimate you mean a market, where dealers and corporations make full disclosure of the facts, free of insider trading and brokers working in the best interest of their customers, yes it is legitimate but there is now and always have been a few bad apples. But if you use common sense, make your own investment decisions, diversify your investments and invest for long haul you should be ok.

 

[The Rabbi]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

Your understanding of the stock market is rivaled only by your understanding of the role of short selling.
Both suck.

 

[kyzr]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

Your understanding of the stock market is rivaled only by your understanding of the role of short selling.
Both suck.

Prove my view of short-sellers wrong. I can drive down the value of any stock given enough money. Once its down I buy it back and cash-in stealing the small investors' money. The FEDS NEED TO BAN NAKED SHORT-SELLING. I'M OUT UNTIL THEY DO.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

If by legitimate you mean a fair market where buyers and seller can be confident that they are getting a fair price for stocks based on free market bids, the answer is yes. But if by legitimate you mean getting fair and impartial advice, then maybe, maybe not. Anytime you rely on investment advice you got to be very careful. If by legitimate you mean a market, where dealers and corporations make full disclosure of the facts, free of insider trading and brokers working in the best interest of their customers, yes it is legitimate but there is now and always have been a few bad apples. But if you use common sense, make your own investment decisions, diversify your investments and invest for long haul you should be ok.

Whew!!!!

You surely DON'T sound like someone who rode the '90s Wave!!!!

My first indication, there was something Not Right about the Market, was during the first Gulf War; during the Daddy Bush years.

At that time....due to all the support he got, thru the CIA....Saddam Hussein (actually) thought he was a member of the Big-Boys/Big-Oil Club (much like present-day White-wingers who think they actually stand-a-chance of becoming a 1%er), and decided to move into Kuwait & strengthen his oil-"holdings". After all....what did He need to worry-about????

At one point, during that War (after BUSHCO had decided they needed to snap-the-reins/pull-a-Noriega, on Hussein)......the word went-out that Hussein had been killed! The Stock Market went-thru-the-ceiling; HUGE gains!!! Approximately 24-hours-later, it was revealed Hussein's death was merely a rumor. Quite-expectedly, The Market retreated....and, may have dipped, a bit (from it's pre-Death value). It was at THAT point I'd recognized that....a stock's value had nothing-to-do (typically) with the value of that stock's product/service!!!

During the '90s (when pretty-much everyone decided The Market was THE place to park their savings), too-many people also thought their broker was their friend.....and, proceeded to make their broker extremely-rich!!

If you LOVE money....if you're OBSESSED with money....enough where you're willing to spend (nearly) every-waking-HOUR monitoring stock-values/The Market....JUMP!!

If you're not.....Stay OUT of The Market.....'cause the Vultures/Brokers are already in-the-trees....waiting for the NEXT Wave o' amateurs/suckers to jump-back-into The Game!!!!​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

Your understanding of the stock market is rivaled only by your understanding of the role of short selling.
Both suck.

Gee, Rabbi......I thought you were some kind o' $uper-Capitali$t!!!!

Why do you HATE Capitali$m???!!!!!

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

Your understanding of the stock market is rivaled only by your understanding of the role of short selling.
Both suck.

Prove my view of short-sellers wrong. I can drive down the value of any stock given enough money. Once its down I buy it back and cash-in stealing the small investors' money. The FEDS NEED TO BAN NAKED SHORT-SELLING. I'M OUT UNTIL THEY DO.

If you've got the time (i.e. the better-part-of-the-day), give day-trading a shot!

You won't make big-money, fast.....but, you can show a small-profit, daily. Then, ya' gotta decide whether-or-not the time spent/lost was worth it.​

 

[editec]

The game is criminally rigged sometimes.

Meanwhile the market is generally structured to suit the needs of the insiders, to the detriment of the retail investors.

Periodically conspiracies are uncovered and then, if the conspirators are connected, they'll get a fines, as in the recent cases of Goldman Sacs setting up its own customers by touting bonds they'd STRUCTURED to fail.

Or, if the conspirators have no political suck, and their actions have been obviously and undeniably criminal, then they (usually) get a slap on the wrist.

History is replete with examples of the market (or at least some elements of it) being manipulated by insiders and secrets cabals of movers and shakers working in unison (usually through cut outs) to control individual stocks or even whole sectors of the market.

Major investors manipulate the market through inside trading, rumor mongering and stampeding the herd.

While I do not doubt that retail investors can make money on the market, I also think there's damned little they do about it if they get caught up in one of these swindles.

Generally speaking, I think it safe to suggest that the small investors are the last people to ride the bull and the first people to feed the bear.

Playing the market -- even one that is not fixed! -- is about having the right information at the right moment and the retail investor just isn't in that information loop.

And so we just witnessed a fairly good example of that as retail investors lost 30-50% of their 401K nest eggs, while so many obvious information rich insiders made billions sellling short.

I think it's no overstatement to suggest that the insiders are generally not working with the same public information that the retail investors were working with.

Insider trading, while theoretically a crime, is really der rigueur in the world of financial investing.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Generally speaking, I think it safe to suggest that the small investors are the last people to ride the bull and the first people to feed the bear.

Playing the market -- even one that is not fixed! -- is about having the right information at the right moment and the retail investor just isn't in that information loop.

.....Especially when it comes to IPOs!!!!!!!!!!!



(Then, again......that's where Brokers make the BIG-buck$.....making sure preferred-customers are alway$ at the-front-o'-the-line.)​

 

[The Rabbi]

I can't help thinking that the stock market is a rigged game. Its not just that the unscrupulous CEOs and their assorted white collar criminal cohorts can do just about whatever they want. Nope. Its cases like Goldman-Sachs as an example.

They get a $500m fine (without any wrongdoing?!) then in order to pay the fine they could simply use massive leverage to sell the market short, take the sucker's 401k money, and then pay the fine with bozo money. What a country.

Many of my contacts are saying that they are not going to get burned again by the stock market crooks. Hence today's poll question.

If the Feds wanted to do something about it, they would prohibit short-selling and derivatives, only allowing capital raising (job creating) long term investments.

I'm not getting back in until the SEC levels the playing field for small investors.

Your understanding of the stock market is rivaled only by your understanding of the role of short selling.
Both suck.

Prove my view of short-sellers wrong. I can drive down the value of any stock given enough money. Once its down I buy it back and cash-in stealing the small investors' money. The FEDS NEED TO BAN NAKED SHORT-SELLING. I'M OUT UNTIL THEY DO.

Short sellers provide a counter measure to longs that are woefully misinformed about the value of their stock.
You do not have enough money to drive down the price of any stock. No one does. But you might as well complain about entities driving up the value of stocks in a pump n dump scheme.

 

[fyrenza]

Back in college, I had a professor tell us that it was ALL Smoke & Mirrors,

that if you weren't buying something REAL ~ a piece of the assets ~ you were playing the slots in Vegas,

and had BETTER be prepared to lose whatever you spent.

Turns out he was 100% correct!

 

[editec]

If market fundamentals and balance sheets were all that it took to game the market there'd be no market.

Every investor would correctly price every stock and the only trading that would be happening would come from those whose personal needs were to get into our out of the market.

This isn't obvious to those of you who play the market?

If the market was perfect (that is to say if the market was only moving on publically held information) it wouldn't be very vital.

 

[topspin]

It is probably the easiest most proven route to get rich.
it's flooded with snake oil salesman and luckily for them more morons buying snake oil than educated investors buying great companies.
the upper class individual owns more in stocks than any other asset class.

 

[The Rabbi]

If market fundamentals and balance sheets were all that it took to game the market there'd be no market.

Every investor would correctly price every stock and the only trading that would be happening would come from those whose personal needs were to get into our out of the market.

This isn't obvious to those of you who play the market?

If the market was perfect (that is to say if the market was only moving on publically held information) it wouldn't be very vital.

Simply wrong because business conditions change.
Simply irrelevant because no one thinks the market is perfect.

 

[kyzr]

Your understanding of the stock market is rivaled only by your understanding of the role of short selling.
Both suck.

Prove my view of short-sellers wrong. I can drive down the value of any stock given enough money. Once its down I buy it back and cash-in stealing the small investors' money. The FEDS NEED TO BAN NAKED SHORT-SELLING. I'M OUT UNTIL THEY DO.

Short sellers provide a counter measure to longs that are woefully misinformed about the value of their stock.
You do not have enough money to drive down the price of any stock. No one does. But you might as well complain about entities driving up the value of stocks in a pump n dump scheme.

Exactly. The Feds need to address both ends of the scale and strive for long term stability and job creation. Short-sellers can be restrained by eliminating "naked short-selling". Pump-and-dumpers can be restrained somewhat by requiring that stocks be held a minimum time (3-mo or so) before being sold. That means that investors would diversify more and lead to long-term stability. No more day-traders. No more options or derivatives. No more "hi-stakes casinos". Get real jobs creating jobs and actually paying taxes. Overseas accounts need to be taxed, etc.

 

[Flopper]

Prove my view of short-sellers wrong. I can drive down the value of any stock given enough money. Once its down I buy it back and cash-in stealing the small investors' money. The FEDS NEED TO BAN NAKED SHORT-SELLING. I'M OUT UNTIL THEY DO.

Short sellers provide a counter measure to longs that are woefully misinformed about the value of their stock.
You do not have enough money to drive down the price of any stock. No one does. But you might as well complain about entities driving up the value of stocks in a pump n dump scheme.

Exactly. The Feds need to address both ends of the scale and strive for long term stability and job creation. Short-sellers can be restrained by eliminating "naked short-selling". Pump-and-dumpers can be restrained somewhat by requiring that stocks be held a minimum time (3-mo or so) before being sold. That means that investors would diversify more and lead to long-term stability. No more day-traders. No more options or derivatives. No more "hi-stakes casinos". Get real jobs creating jobs and actually paying taxes. Overseas accounts need to be taxed, etc.

Naked short selling is illegal. I would be concerned with a 3 month holding rule. Although I don't believe day trading is the way to financial success, it provides liquidity to the markets. Without sufficient liquidity in the markets, price rises and falls are exaggerated. This can really hurt a small investor.

Naked short selling should not be tolerated but normal short selling helps cushion market falls and rises. I think short selling has always taken a bad rap. Remember the old slogan "Don't sell America short". People who don't understand the markets always seem to think there is something wrong with short selling.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

It is probably the easiest most proven route to get rich.
it's flooded with snake oil salesman and luckily for them more morons buying snake oil than educated investors buying great companies.
the upper class individual owns more in stocks than any other asset class.

....And, people STILL wonder why the upper-class-individuals/1%er$ want to see the elimination of ALL capital-gains taxes????????

​

 

[topspin]

Naked short selling ban is not enforced

 

[Mr. Shaman]

If market fundamentals and balance sheets were all that it took to game the market there'd be no market.

Every investor would correctly price every stock and the only trading that would be happening would come from those whose personal needs were to get into our out of the market.

This isn't obvious to those of you who play the market?

If the market was perfect (that is to say if the market was only moving on publically held information) it wouldn't be very vital.

Simply wrong because business conditions change.

....And, they REALLY start to change, when the general-public starts hearing MORE-about those business-conditions!!

​

 

[editec]

If market fundamentals and balance sheets were all that it took to game the market there'd be no market.

Every investor would correctly price every stock and the only trading that would be happening would come from those whose personal needs were to get into our out of the market.

This isn't obvious to those of you who play the market?

If the market was perfect (that is to say if the market was only moving on publically held information) it wouldn't be very vital.

Simply wrong because business conditions change.

Irrrelevant to my point, Rab.

If business conditions change and the public knows about that just as soon as the insiders (and that is not really possible, even in the best of circumstances) the market would not be nearly as vital as it is today.





Simply irrelevant because no one thinks the market is perfect.

A perfect market is one where all information pertainent to the value of the stock is publically known.

The theory of a perfect market is that under such conditions the "invisible hand of the market" correctly prices the stocks based on all KNOWN data.

Nobody SANE thinks the market is perfect, on that we completely agree, Rabbi.

That's because nobody who is SANE believes that the PUBLIC has the same information (at the same time) as the insiders.

To that extent, yes the game is fixed. (or perhaps it would be better described as broken)

And really, there's absolutely nothing that can really done about that, either.

Even if the insiders were scrupulously honest, the public (particularly the retail investing public) is at a serious disadvantage when it comes to investing wisely.