Is The American Experiment Over?

[jodylee]

Hoping for the best, eh? Me too... I'm working on a similar situation here in Florida - no where near 40 acres and a mule, but it is amazing how much food can be grown year round on a small patch of sandy dirt with water.

-Joe

Now maybe you can see life in the third world aint so bad, living off the land is exactly what most people on this planet do. its only the delevoped world that buys its food in a supermarket. and the west looked down on them for so many years and still does. I recenty came back from morrocco where i lived in the county. the only people that weren't happy were the ones that belived the lies on telly and wanted to go to europe for a better life.

 

[Missourian]

We have an economy right now that is totally unsustainable. The USA has a 70 percent service based consumer economy. Citizens must spend and spend and spend to keep the economy afloat.

The citizenry is now in the same fiscal bind as the government. They have borrowed and borrowed and borrowed again to buy houses and new cars and big screen televisions and I-pods etc. I think the stat is on average Americans carry $8,000 worth of credit card debt.

Now credit has tightened, the wall street crumbled, banks failed, the stock market tumbled and people are scared.

I heard on the radio yesterday that 1 in 5 home-owners is underwater on their home mortgage...meaning they owe more on their home then it is now worth. The expert being interviewed recommended they simply walk away from their home if they were more than $10,000 underwater.

It is a snowball effect all around.

People spend less, other people lose their jobs, those people spend less, other people lose their jobs, those people spend less...

People walk away from their homes, more houses on the market, home values drop, more people walk away from their homes, more houses on the market, home values drop...

Some folks will try to put this on Bush's doorstep, but Clinton and Bush Sr. can share the blame...but most of the blame, if such things are important to you, falls squarely on the American people.

As citizens we have fallen into pitfalls that were very avoidable.

We didn't take the advice are grandparents who lived thru the Great Depression tried to give us.

Live within your means.

Neither a borrower nor a lender me.

A penny saved is a penny earned.

I think we will bet able to ride out this economic crisis, but I'm preparing for the eventuality that we cannot. I hope I'm not surprised.

 

[editec]

You are correct when you say that the industrial infrastructure we have is worth fighting for... It is the fight that scares people. I think the trick here is to keep oneself alive and protect what you can until the coming anarchy kills itself off.

People view the preindustrial past through rose colored glasses. Preindustrial farming is a miserable life. Even when people had enough to eat the tedium and monotony of that life drove people crazy, particularly the women.

I do think that the future of America lies in breaking up into sovereign regions or states where people have more control over their own lives.

That doesn't jibe with my experience to be honest. The smaller the society, the more likely it is to be very conformist, and the less tolerant they seem to be to the other.

If you want personal freedom, you'll find in a large population area where you can remain a stranger to most folks.

If you want to be under the scrutiny of other people, you live in a smaller town.

It would be nice to imagine America maintaining its map and its citizens actually tolerating the lifestyles of their neighbors; it would be nice to think the break-up could be done with the ballot; but optimism doesn't seem to be running high in either of those directions.

While there are certainly social differences regionally, I do not think it is in the best interests of any region in the USA to go it alone. Our strength as a people and as an ecomonmy too, demands that diversity of regions.

Even California and West, which appears to have more of the natural resources and human resources than most of the nation, wouldn't do nearly so well without the South, Mid west and East.

Californian seperatist type folks seem to forget how much of that state's real wealth actually comes from our government which puts military bases there, and which buys their hi tech and agricultural products.

Besides, the west is going to start realizing how very dependent they've been on fresh water soon, because it is beginning to look like their aquifer is running out and the climate is getting drier.

I'm convinced that the imperial valley's amazing productivity is going to fail them soon. And then what is much of that area? Trackless deserts basically unfit for human habitation without air conditioning and water imported from away.

Even if Obama turns out to be the leader his most hopeful supporters believe he is, unless another leader emerges from American politics in 8 years, we are going to be back in the same divided and bickering spot or worse in 16.

There's a lot more xenophobic, regionalist ignoranmics huanting this board than you'll find in real life, I expect, Joe.

Breaking up the USA is, I think, just a terrrible idea that sounds appealing when we're confronted with the ASCII bravehearts we find in places like these.

America is one nation, not fifty states, not five or six regions, either.

We are a great nation because we are all of those combined.

The sum of the parts combined into one entity is far greater than the individual parts standing alone.

I am an American by inclination, a Pennsylvanian by birth and a Mainer by happenstance.

 

[Luissa]

Berkey water purifier: It will turn piss into delicious drinking water lol

Welcome to New millennium Concepts Ltd

And don't drink bottled water, not as many regulations as say your city drinking water!

 

[Paulie]

My American dream has been rewritten. All I want is to buy 40 - 50 acres out west and live off the grid with my dogs, my horse and my guns. Oh yeah my wife too.

Did you ever see that movie called "off the grid", about people living off the grid in the NM desert?

They live a dirty lifestyle, but they are all very happy.

I've looked into the self-sustaining homes myself. I hope I'll be in a position to be able to do it before it's too late.

I have back-up plans, though.

 

[editec]

Living off the grid is one thing. I know all sorts of folks who do that here in Maine right now.

Living in the 16th century quite another.

Unless you're prepared to make your own antibiotics, forge your own iron and glass, all you're really doing when you go back to the land here is living remotely while importing those benefits that society is still producing for you elsewhere.

Maine was the East coasters' back to the land central in the early 1970s.

I know scores of former back to earthers who started out here with every intention of rejecting modern society and living off the land.

It just doesn't work! Most of them either live off their magic mailboxes, or they've found some way to make their small businesses pay off by creating something here and selling it out of state.

There isn't a single commune left in Waldo county.

 

[Turboswede]

My American dream has been rewritten. All I want is to buy 40 - 50 acres out west and live off the grid with my dogs, my horse and my guns. Oh yeah my wife too.

This reminds me of how a lot of my friends in school felt, but they were coming to the same conclusion based on environmental concerns. My answer to them is that family subsistence farming may be an individual solution but is a horrible answer in the aggregate. Assuming that a family of 4 would require an area of 40 acres to sustain the family, the population of WA would need to be reduced (somehow) by 2,800,000 people, and we are a “low density, high yield” state.

If you run a similar scenario for California, you are looking at eliminating 28 Million people or Virginia needs to loose 5.4 million people.

So, baring a nuclear war or some kind of Andromeda Strain, how are we supposed to get rid of all those people? Will they all just kill each other? WA could support its current population with about 28 acres per family and I am sure it wouldn’t break down that way. Any review of feudal Europe shows that the typical arrangement was that the “lord” would own about ½ the land of a given area with the Yeomen controlling the other ½. Under that model, ½ of the Yeomen’s labor was used on the landlord’s fief and ½ of the product of the Yeoman’s land was taxed by the lord of the fief.

I think I will stick with agribusiness and going to Albertson’s for my groceries.

I did want to add that living “off the grid” is admirable provided that the rest of the nation stays “on the grid” I think it’s a great way of life for the individual family, it just isn’t a solution to Americas future in general.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Did you ever see that movie called "off the grid", about people living off the grid in the NM desert?

They live a dirty lifestyle, but they are all very happy.

I've looked into the self-sustaining homes myself. I hope I'll be in a position to be able to do it before it's too late.

I have back-up plans, though.

Yeah I'm planning to live a filthy life. No toilet, no running water,...
no phone no lights no motor cars not a single luxury. like Robinson Crusoe it's primitive as can be

Living off the grid is one thing. I know all sorts of folks who do that here in Maine right now.

Living in the 16th century quite another.

Unless you're prepared to make your own antibiotics, forge your own iron and glass, all you're really doing when you go back to the land here is living remotely while importing those benefits that society is still producing for you elsewhere.

Maine was the East coasters' back to the land central in the early 1970s.

I know scores of former back to earthers who started out here with every intention of rejecting modern society and living off the land.

It just doesn't work! Most of them either live off their magic mailboxes, or they've found some way to make their small businesses pay off by creating something here and selling it out of state.

There isn't a single commune left in Waldo county.

Yeah ed,

Living on a ranch out west and having a garden and some chickens means I can't go to a doctor. And when did I ever say I was rejecting modern society?

BTW this design is our current favorite. A real shit hole huh?

 

[Skull Pilot]

This reminds me of how a lot of my friends in school felt, but they were coming to the same conclusion based on environmental concerns. My answer to them is that family subsistence farming may be an individual solution but is a horrible answer in the aggregate. Assuming that a family of 4 would require an area of 40 acres to sustain the family, the population of WA would need to be reduced (somehow) by 2,800,000 people, and we are a “low density, high yield” state.

You don't need 40 acres to sustain a family of 4. 40 acres is my idea of the perfect size yard. No neighbors in sight.

a garden plot 25' by 45' can produce enough vegetables for 2 people for a year and there are always fruits and or veggies that are just easier to buy than to grow.

If you run a similar scenario for California, you are looking at eliminating 28 Million people or Virginia needs to loose 5.4 million people.

So, baring a nuclear war or some kind of Andromeda Strain, how are we supposed to get rid of all those people? Will they all just kill each other? WA could support its current population with about 28 acres per family and I am sure it wouldn’t break down that way. Any review of feudal Europe shows that the typical arrangement was that the “lord” would own about ½ the land of a given area with the Yeomen controlling the other ½. Under that model, ½ of the Yeomen’s labor was used on the landlord’s fief and ½ of the product of the Yeoman’s land was taxed by the lord of the fief.

I think I will stick with agribusiness and going to Albertson’s for my groceries.

I did want to add that living “off the grid” is admirable provided that the rest of the nation stays “on the grid” I think it’s a great way of life for the individual family, it just isn’t a solution to Americas future in general.

Off the grid can mean many things. For instance my dream home out west will probably produce more power than I will use so I'll let the local utility pay me for power.

Regardless of how far off the grid you want to go, you have to realize that no politician, no government agency is or ever has been serious about reducing our fossil fuel consumption. The very fact that building codes are still favoring 2x4 stick construction are proof of that.

That simple and inexpensive solar hot water heaters could be added to building codes for new construction but aren't is proof.

That there are few if any meaningful tax credits for upgrading to renewable household energy technology that already exists and is proven to work is proof.

That politicians both state and federal would rather enact new and costly legislation to start efforts that will result in no progress for years is proof.

But people keep falling for it.

 

[Turboswede]

Skull,

I must agree, I think your method of living self sufficiently while embracing technology is great. By looking at the other posts I started thinking this was advocating a general mass migration “back to the land” in a Cultural Revolution sense. That’s how all my greenie friends always talked about it and I always thought they were full of crap. Sorry I lumped you in with them, I do agree that it’s a noble (and enviable) lifestyle give the proper application of technology.

Too bad my wife would never agree to living more than a mile from a Target store, otherwise I would be happy to set up my own techno-ranch.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Skull,

I must agree, I think your method of living self sufficiently while embracing technology is great. By looking at the other posts I started thinking this was advocating a general mass migration “back to the land” in a Cultural Revolution sense. That’s how all my greenie friends always talked about it and I always thought they were full of crap. Sorry I lumped you in with them, I do agree that it’s a noble (and enviable) lifestyle give the proper application of technology.

Too bad my wife would never agree to living more than a mile from a Target store, otherwise I would be happy to set up my own techno-ranch.

LOL

I have explained this to many of my friends who lump me in with the "dirty commune" type. believe you me, i love my creature comforts and modern conveniences as much as the next guy. I just think we can do it all better.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Skull,

I must agree, I think your method of living self sufficiently while embracing technology is great. By looking at the other posts I started thinking this was advocating a general mass migration “back to the land” in a Cultural Revolution sense. That’s how all my greenie friends always talked about it and I always thought they were full of crap. Sorry I lumped you in with them, I do agree that it’s a noble (and enviable) lifestyle give the proper application of technology.

Too bad my wife would never agree to living more than a mile from a Target store, otherwise I would be happy to set up my own techno-ranch.

LOL

I have explained this to many of my friends who lump me in with the "dirty commune" type. believe you me, i love my creature comforts and modern conveniences as much as the next guy. I just think we can do it all better.

I do believe that the two of you have just given a perfect example of my own definition of "hoping for the best"!

Who the hell would give up clean water and electricity unless there were no place to buy it or no way to produce it?!?

Not to mention the Internet - I don't know what I'd talk to my wife about if it weren't for the poignant, silly and sometimes stupid posts by my friends in this community!

I do find it interesting though that in 4 pages of posts, no one has argued with my claim that when the country breaks up, California and the Northeast will be bastions of gay-loving liberals and Texas and Alaska will be selling them oil in spite of it...

-Joe

 

[Skull Pilot]

I do believe that the two of you have just given a perfect example of my own definition of "hoping for the best"!

Who the hell would give up clean water and electricity unless there were no place to buy it or no way to produce it?!?

Exactly my point. You don't have to give any of it up. Although i will say water from your own well is better than you can buy

Not to mention the Internet - I don't know what I'd talk to my wife about if it weren't for the poignant, silly and sometimes stupid posts by my friends in this community!

I do find it interesting though that in 4 pages of posts, no one has argued with my claim that when the country breaks up, California and the Northeast will be bastions of gay-loving liberals and Texas and Alaska will be selling them oil in spite of it...

-Joe

The coasts are gone. Taken over by the libbies and the ultra left barking moonbats. As long as we keep the worst of them confined to the coastal states and the big cities I guess I can be happy.

 

[Skull Pilot]

One thing i will add to this conversation that i am worried about is the absolute lack of skilled labor in this country.

we have less and less young people pursuing the trades as a career. We are going to see a severe lack of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, welders etc. there has been a snobbery that has led to the decline of these careers in favor of pursuing a watered down , virtually meaningless college degree even though your average plumber makes more than your average kid with a bachelor's in liberal arts.

One of the only reasons I will have my dream ranch is that i can do a lot of the work myself. Most folks don't even know the basics of home maintenance never mind how to build anything.

That to me is scary.