Is taxation voluntary?

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Some think that because we have a "representative" republic or democracy or whatever you want to call it that taxation is somehow voluntary or consensual. My question is do you think that taxation is voluntary? Now I'm not asking whether you think taxation is moral or immoral, just whether it's voluntary.

My opinion is that taxation is not voluntary because for something to be voluntary you have to be able to choose not to do it. Since you cannot choose not to pay taxes without being thrown in prison it is clearly not voluntary. loosecannon is of the opinion that because you sign a paper prior to employment that allows the government a portion of your income that you're consenting to being taxed, but I disagree. For one this doesn't cover all forms of taxation, and two you have no other choice but to sign this paper. The government has made it illegal to work without giving them a cut of your income so you are forced by law to sign this paper or you can't legally work. If you can't work you can't live so there's obviously no choice there.

Taxes are clearly coercive, not voluntary.

What do you think?

 

[william the wie]

Obviously true for wages but given all the loopholes in the tax code for other forms of income more or less voluntary.

 

[Madeline]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

 

[shintao]

Some think that because we have a "representative" republic or democracy or whatever you want to call it that taxation is somehow voluntary or consensual. My question is do you think that taxation is voluntary? Now I'm not asking whether you think taxation is moral or immoral, just whether it's voluntary.

My opinion is that taxation is not voluntary because for something to be voluntary you have to be able to choose not to do it. Since you cannot choose not to pay taxes without being thrown in prison it is clearly not voluntary. loosecannon is of the opinion that because you sign a paper prior to employment that allows the government a portion of your income that you're consenting to being taxed, but I disagree. For one this doesn't cover all forms of taxation, and two you have no other choice but to sign this paper. The government has made it illegal to work without giving them a cut of your income so you are forced by law to sign this paper or you can't legally work. If you can't work you can't live so there's obviously no choice there.

Taxes are clearly coercive, not voluntary.

What do you think?

Seems I have heard Ron Paul spout illegal, gold & silver only, 1913, and others say the tax code was never ratified by the states. I do know, if you don't pay your taxes your headed for prison, so..........

 

[JFK_USA]

Benjamin Franklin said it best "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Taxes is the cost of a civilized society. Countries that don't have alot of taxes or tax revenue usually has very unstable governments. Its just a fact. To have a stable military, stable society, you must have government. You must have some sort of stability to have life be as calm as possible. Libertarians, Tea Party people obviously have no capacity of intellect to understand the importance of government.

No, taxes are not voluntary. And if you don't pay them on time, you should not be able to negotiate a lower rate because you didn't pay them. That's ridiculous.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

Well I certainly don't agree that we have a patriotic duty to pay taxes, but it matters in the same way anything we talk about on this message board does. It's simply something to discuss. I don't see how we can both be correct, however, since we're essentially saying the opposite.

 

[shintao]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

Why do you feel it is a "patriotic duty?" That is like saying, well if you are going to hang me, here is my best rope for the occasion. LOL!

You really have to give symapathy to the devil here, and people who want nothing from government. I think we should give them the state of Utah & cut off federal taxes and federal spending. And build a barbed wire fence to keep them inside, to make sure when they turn 80 they aren't slipping onto the federal side to rob benefits they didn't support. Works for me.

 

[Madeline]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

Well I certainly don't agree that we have a patriotic duty to pay taxes, but it matters in the same way anything we talk about on this message board does. It's simply something to discuss. I don't see how we can both be correct, however, since we're essentially saying the opposite.

I'm all for philosophical discussions, Kevin. Not bashing the Op, just probing. What would be the value of determining that taxes are not paid voluntarily?

Why do you not feel paying them is a patriotic duty? If Congress entertained a Bill Gates Need Never Pay Another Dime bill, would you support it?

 

[Madeline]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

Why do you feel it is a "patriotic duty?" That is like saying, well if you are going to hang me, here is my best rope for the occasion. LOL!

You really have to give symapathy to the devil here, and people who want nothing from government. I think we should give them the state of Utah & cut off federal taxes and federal spending. And build a barbed wire fence to keep them inside, to make sure when they turn 80 they aren't slipping onto the federal side to rob benefits they didn't support. Works for me.

We cannot even give them Utah, or any other piece of land, if they have not at least got enough rudimentary government to accept and record the gift, shintao. If humans insist on living in groups, there is a common cost of doing so they must all bear in one fashion or another.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

Well I certainly don't agree that we have a patriotic duty to pay taxes, but it matters in the same way anything we talk about on this message board does. It's simply something to discuss. I don't see how we can both be correct, however, since we're essentially saying the opposite.

I'm all for philosophical discussions, Kevin. Not bashing the Op, just probing. What would be the value of determining that taxes are not paid voluntarily?

Why do you not feel paying them is a patriotic duty? If Congress entertained a Bill Gates Need Never Pay Another Dime bill, would you support it?

To make people think about the nature of government in general as compared to our own government which purports to be "representative." Does it somehow make paying taxes voluntary if you have a representative government? Some think so. So let's find out why.

I didn't say not paying them was a patriotic duty, just that I didn't agree that paying them was a patriotic duty. Yes, I would support that. However, I would much rather everybody be exempted than just one person.

 

[shintao]

Benjamin Franklin said it best "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Taxes is the cost of a civilized society. Countries that don't have alot of taxes or tax revenue usually has very unstable governments. Its just a fact. To have a stable military, stable society, you must have government. You must have some sort of stability to have life be as calm as possible. Libertarians, Tea Party people obviously have no capacity of intellect to understand the importance of government.

No, taxes are not voluntary. And if you don't pay them on time, you should not be able to negotiate a lower rate because you didn't pay them. That's ridiculous.

Didn't we leave Europe over debtor's prisons?? And how did we persevere for years with no taxes?? (devils advocate question)

 

[Madeline]

Well I certainly don't agree that we have a patriotic duty to pay taxes, but it matters in the same way anything we talk about on this message board does. It's simply something to discuss. I don't see how we can both be correct, however, since we're essentially saying the opposite.

I'm all for philosophical discussions, Kevin. Not bashing the Op, just probing. What would be the value of determining that taxes are not paid voluntarily?

Why do you not feel paying them is a patriotic duty? If Congress entertained a Bill Gates Need Never Pay Another Dime bill, would you support it?

To make people think about the nature of government in general as compared to our own government which purports to be "representative." Does it somehow make paying taxes voluntary if you have a representative government? Some think so. So let's find out why.

I didn't say not paying them was a patriotic duty, just that I didn't agree that paying them was a patriotic duty. Yes, I would support that. However, I would much rather everybody be exempted than just one person.

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Taxes are absolutely not voluntary and certainly coercive, almost by definition. But that's not to say they're completely unjustifiable, to a degree, in our present historico-politcal-economic reality.

 

[Madeline]

Benjamin Franklin said it best "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Taxes is the cost of a civilized society. Countries that don't have alot of taxes or tax revenue usually has very unstable governments. Its just a fact. To have a stable military, stable society, you must have government. You must have some sort of stability to have life be as calm as possible. Libertarians, Tea Party people obviously have no capacity of intellect to understand the importance of government.

No, taxes are not voluntary. And if you don't pay them on time, you should not be able to negotiate a lower rate because you didn't pay them. That's ridiculous.

Didn't we leave Europe over debtor's prisons?? And how did we persevere for years with no taxes?? (devils advocate question)

When in the US did we have no taxes?

 

[shintao]

It's a "how many angels can dance on the head of pin" question. You are correct, Kevin, and loosecanon is also correct.

Here's a question for you: why does it matter? We all have a patriotic duty to pay our taxes. That some of us have to be shoved around to comply doesn't alter that fact.

Why do you feel it is a "patriotic duty?" That is like saying, well if you are going to hang me, here is my best rope for the occasion. LOL!

You really have to give symapathy to the devil here, and people who want nothing from government. I think we should give them the state of Utah & cut off federal taxes and federal spending. And build a barbed wire fence to keep them inside, to make sure when they turn 80 they aren't slipping onto the federal side to rob benefits they didn't support. Works for me.

We cannot even give them Utah, or any other piece of land, if they have not at least got enough rudimentary government to accept and record the gift, shintao. If humans insist on living in groups, there is a common cost of doing so they must all bear in one fashion or another.

I think you just said I have to support the free loaders? LOL! Perhaps Texas will secede from the Union. I would like to see the Libertarian Utopia working, but from a start of bare land, not improved in any fashion by taxes. There are several C.America countries where the test could be made if the libertarian wanted to show us a working model from scratch.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'm all for philosophical discussions, Kevin. Not bashing the Op, just probing. What would be the value of determining that taxes are not paid voluntarily?

Why do you not feel paying them is a patriotic duty? If Congress entertained a Bill Gates Need Never Pay Another Dime bill, would you support it?

To make people think about the nature of government in general as compared to our own government which purports to be "representative." Does it somehow make paying taxes voluntary if you have a representative government? Some think so. So let's find out why.

I didn't say not paying them was a patriotic duty, just that I didn't agree that paying them was a patriotic duty. Yes, I would support that. However, I would much rather everybody be exempted than just one person.

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

 

[dilloduck]

Maybe an issue for another thread but I think one could reasonably argue that we aren't even properly represented. If you are punished for not doing something it can hardly be called a voluntary act unless you are choosing to pay fines or living in prison.

 

[shintao]

Benjamin Franklin said it best "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Taxes is the cost of a civilized society. Countries that don't have alot of taxes or tax revenue usually has very unstable governments. Its just a fact. To have a stable military, stable society, you must have government. You must have some sort of stability to have life be as calm as possible. Libertarians, Tea Party people obviously have no capacity of intellect to understand the importance of government.

No, taxes are not voluntary. And if you don't pay them on time, you should not be able to negotiate a lower rate because you didn't pay them. That's ridiculous.

Didn't we leave Europe over debtor's prisons?? And how did we persevere for years with no taxes?? (devils advocate question)

When in the US did we have no taxes?

Yeah, I don't see where we were ever free of taxation of one kind or another. We have always had import/export taxes. I ran across an interesting site.

Federal revenue was a key concern for the authors of the federalist Papers, looming large in their critique of the Articles and their defense of the Constitution.

At various points, they expounded on the efficacy and fairness of consumption taxes, specifically customs duties. They insisted, however, that the federal government be granted unlimited taxing powers, including the authority to assess domestic excise taxes. Debates over "direct" vs. "indirect" taxation received considerable attention, as did the constitutional requirement for tax uniformity.

The Tax History Project has reproduced the full text of nine of the Federalist Papers, including all substantive discussion of federal revenue powers. The links above will take you to the relevant documents.

Tax History Project: Taxing Federalism


Federalist No. 12
Federalist No. 21
Federalist No. 30
Federalist No. 31
Federalist No. 32
Federalist No. 33
Federalist No. 34
Federalist No. 35
Federalist No. 36

 

[shintao]

To make people think about the nature of government in general as compared to our own government which purports to be "representative." Does it somehow make paying taxes voluntary if you have a representative government? Some think so. So let's find out why.

I didn't say not paying them was a patriotic duty, just that I didn't agree that paying them was a patriotic duty. Yes, I would support that. However, I would much rather everybody be exempted than just one person.

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

Here are some states you will enjoy living in, no state taxes. (wiki)

And if you can live off interest: (wiki) "Some income, however, is exempt from income tax. This includes interest on municipal bonds."

 

[Madeline]

To make people think about the nature of government in general as compared to our own government which purports to be "representative." Does it somehow make paying taxes voluntary if you have a representative government? Some think so. So let's find out why.

I didn't say not paying them was a patriotic duty, just that I didn't agree that paying them was a patriotic duty. Yes, I would support that. However, I would much rather everybody be exempted than just one person.

Well, our taxes are extracted pursuant to laws, which can be amended by action of the government. So if you have the power to vote, you have the power to alter the tax code and in that sense, they are voluntary in a manner they would not be in a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.

I'm still not clear why you do not feel paying your taxes is a patriotic duty. Nor can I understand how we are supposed to live together without a government.

So even though I can't choose not to pay taxes without risking imprisonment, the fact that I can vote for my representatives makes them voluntary? What if the person I vote for doesn't win, or the person lies and ends up voting for a tax that they opposed during the election?

I don't think paying taxes is a patriotic duty because I don't subscribe to "patriotism," and I believe that taxation is nothing more than theft.

"Theft"? You cannot be serious, Kevin. Is it "theft" when the electric company turns off your lights for nonpayment? There's a cost associated with being an American.....if you dun pay your share, the result is, either that cost is not covered or your neighbor has to pick it up for you. About $1 Billion in income taxes alone are estimated to be owed but not collected annually in this country. Seems obvious to me, the taxpayers who are dodging their bills are stealing from us all.

As for voting, you can choose to do more. You can contribute to your candidate's campaign, volunteer for him, etc. He might still not be elected, but only because others just as entitled to choose as you agitated more effectively.

It seems to me there's a great deal of confusion lately as to whether and what portion of anyone's gross receipts "belong" to that individual. I won't go into a long, drawn out example, but if it cost the country $5,000 to protect, educate, support and elsewise enable you to earn $50,000, IMO the country has a claim on at least that first $5,000 of your receipts.

Do you disagree?