Is religion just an evolutionary tool?

[manifold]

oh.. so slavery, rape, class warfare, imperialism, disease, death, murder, suicide, child molestation and every other facet of human history is ALSO an aspect of the culmination of our existence. so fucking what. You can be thankful all day long that your dogma junky ancestors claimed europe by killing off the pagan barbarians but such doesn't make anyone else "the product" of, uh, christian, uh, benevolence.


Clearly, "IMO" is not indicative of a "Fact"


But, thanks for another profound statement.

I guess I was wrong. It still wasn't simple enough for you to understand.

Oh well. You can't teach a cat how to fly.

Have a nice weekend

 

[Shogun]

I'm sure there is a whole range of things you are wrong about. Confusing your opinion with facts seems to be the theme of this thread. Claiming that any facet of history, specifically religion, is what has graced us with where we are at today. Sorry, that's just not the case.


You have a great weekend too..

 

[manifold]

Claiming that any facet of history, specifically religion, is what has graced us with where we are at today. Sorry, that's just not the case.

How could that possibly be false?

 

[Shogun]

How could that possibly be false?

because we as individuals are not merely the product of our collective past.


Tell me.. how exactly does some medieval monarch's secret pedophilia urges reflect on you? christians have a way of insisting that their dogma is the single greatest thing to ever occur in the entire history of humanity. It's simply not the case anymore than social taboos practiced by humanity in any given point on the timeline has produced you.

 

[manifold]

because we as individuals are not merely the product of our collective past.


Tell me.. how exactly does some medieval monarch's secret pedophilia urges reflect on you? christians have a way of insisting that their dogma is the single greatest thing to ever occur in the entire history of humanity. It's simply not the case anymore than social taboos practiced by humanity in any given point on the timeline has produced you.

Why do you keep bringing up Christianity? I never said it had anything to do with any particular dogma. Again, I'm talking about the institution of religion. Those that didn't get with the program, didn't survive. Thankfully for you and I, our ancestors got with the program. I could easily come up with several theories as to why religion and survival were so highly correlated, but that wasn't even the point. The point is that they were highly correlated. That is no matter of opinion, that is an obvious fact.

I know this is tough for you. Somewhat analogous I suppose to an American black person coming to grips with the fact that they wouldn't exist if it weren't for slavery. But the fact remains, you wouldn't exist if it weren't for the religion of your ancestors. Deny it if it helps you sleep at night, but that doesn't make the truth go away.

 

[AllieBaba]

Tripe.

 

[Shogun]

Why do you keep bringing up Christianity? I never said it had anything to do with any particular dogma. Again, I'm talking about the institution of religion. Those that didn't get with the program, didn't survive. Thankfully for you and I, our ancestors got with the program. I could easily come up with several theories as to why religion and survival were so highly correlated, but that wasn't even the point. The point is that they were highly correlated. That is no matter of opinion, that is an obvious fact.

I know this is tough for you. Somewhat analogous I suppose to an American black person coming to grips with the fact that they wouldn't exist if it weren't for slavery. But the fact remains, you wouldn't exist if it weren't for the religion of your ancestors. Deny it if it helps you sleep at night, but that doesn't make the truth go away.

Even if by "get with the program" you mean adapt or be killed by the zealot flavour of the day you'd still be wrong. Gee, wally.. ya think that there would be a high survival rate among those who are quick to kill off anything that doesn't agree? Holy shit! You mean there are no more pagans in Ireland!?!?! This must mean that every irish person is individually, personally molded by religion!

Now, had dogma junkies exterminated all non-believers and kept us from popping up on our own then you might have a point. As it is, we aren't all examples of your lineage of dogma. In this pluralistic society especially. If you think so then prove it beyond voicing your silly junky opinion.


HA!

and American black person wouldn't exist if it weren't for SLAVERY? yea, like there have never been any blacks to immigrate in 200 plus fucking years!

Holy SHIT that's a new brilliant trophy quote you should polish and shine every day while it sits on your mantle of stupid.

Again, by your own logic then you wouldn't exist had it not been for the pedophilia of your ancestors..

Enjoy sleeping while knowing that your total existence is the product of rape and incest.


It's like those, uh, american blacks that were all, every single negro one of them, the product of slavery!

 

[AllieBaba]

Manifold:

He keeps bringing up Christianity because our lord and the devil are fighting for his soul. He can't help it. He knows enough to know he should believe, but the devil keeps whispering in his ear, "You're too smart for that...."

He's caught in the middle, and the spirit moves him to keep bringing Christ into the picture.

It's sort of fun to watch.

 

[Diuretic]

Manifold:

He keeps bringing up Christianity because our lord and the devil are fighting for his soul. He can't help it. He knows enough to know he should believe, but the devil keeps whispering in his ear, "You're too smart for that...."

He's caught in the middle, and the spirit moves him to keep bringing Christ into the picture.

It's sort of fun to watch.

You're deluded. That is breathtakingly funny, really.

 

[Shogun]

Manifold:

He keeps bringing up Christianity because our lord and the devil are fighting for his soul. He can't help it. He knows enough to know he should believe, but the devil keeps whispering in his ear, "You're too smart for that...."

He's caught in the middle, and the spirit moves him to keep bringing Christ into the picture.

It's sort of fun to watch.

I assure you that I will never trade in my Saul for a christian Paul. There is no devil, Allie. And, besides, if your god had any actual relevance we'd ALL know it; Not just some sect of people who believe for than they can prove.

You enjoy your chuckle though.. I bring up jebus because it's the dogma tender you trade in. If you were a muslim and took the very same positions I'd be telling you what kind of a crock of shit is the idea of Mohammed being the messiah.

Further, you cannot just pick and choose what aspects of our history you LIKE and dub thee responsible for humanity today. Religion played a role but did not mold us into a uniform product without giving equal credit to all the bad things in life that has done the same. If you wanna brag about the influence of religion then you'd have to do the same with the holocaust and nazis. black plague diseases and illiteracy. Superstition and magic. Hell, is it NOT true that yur god, rather than snap his almighty fingers and make it so, decided to let Moses play "looky at my magic stick" with aarons rod? Used natural occurances interpreted by ignorant people as if all of a sudden locusts swarmed for the first time ever?

It's unfortunate that the social damage that dogma junkies do will be met with nothing rather than some giant cosmic ghost clarifying the truth.

 

[manifold]

Shooter,

I can't determine whether you really are so narrow-minded and ignorant as to repeatedly miss the point entirely, or if your being intentionally dense for comedic effect.

I could easily point out how every single point in your patented flame post is complete bull shit, but why bother?

I think it's pretty clear the calibur of individual that you are.

 

[Shogun]

dont be a puss, dude... if you've got something to post then do it. I really dont care what you think you COULD do. Chances are, if your comprehension of history is any navigation, it will be a gut busting joke anyway.



so yes.. do tell how we are molded by religion and NOT slavery, disease, rape, greed etc etc. Make sure you address the finer points of your arguement too.. you know, the part where somehow you can only remember the martin luthers and not the inquisitors.

 

[manifold]

I never said we weren't shaped by all those other things too. Why do you repeatedly insist that I did? Is your reading comprehension really that piss poor?

How come the mere acknowledgment that religion is inextricably woven into your past is such a bitter pill for you to swallow?

Really, why?

 

[jillian]

Why do you keep bringing up Christianity? I never said it had anything to do with any particular dogma. Again, I'm talking about the institution of religion. Those that didn't get with the program, didn't survive. Thankfully for you and I, our ancestors got with the program. I could easily come up with several theories as to why religion and survival were so highly correlated, but that wasn't even the point. The point is that they were highly correlated. That is no matter of opinion, that is an obvious fact.

I know this is tough for you. Somewhat analogous I suppose to an American black person coming to grips with the fact that they wouldn't exist if it weren't for slavery. But the fact remains, you wouldn't exist if it weren't for the religion of your ancestors. Deny it if it helps you sleep at night, but that doesn't make the truth go away.

OK, I'm curious.... why would black people not exist but for slavery? And why would Shogie not exist BUT FOR the religion of his ancestors. Perhaps I'm missing something?

 

[manifold]

OK, I'm curious.... why would black people not exist but for slavery? And why would Shogie not exist BUT FOR the religion of his ancestors. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Black people would still exist, just not the specific individuals that decended from slave owners mixing with slaves. I don't see a lot of West African-black African Americans so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of them have slave owner (white) blood somewhere in their lineage. Without that mixing, those individuals would have never came into existence.

If Shogie is like just about every other white, product of western civilization, then religion is an important part of his history. Who knows what would have happened without it, but chances are, all the individual breeding pairs that came together over the last several millenia to ultimately produce the self-important windbag we know and love as Shogun, would have happened differently. I never said mankind owes it's existence to religion, I said each individual owes his specific existence to religion. There would probably still be 300 million people in the US, they'd just be a different 300 million than the ones that currently exist. Yes, it's kind of an "out there" concept, but statistically speaking, every single individual life is like winning the most ridiculously low odds lottery ever imagined. If you traced your ancestry back 2000 years and from that point charted every single breeding possibility, the odds that it would lead to you 2000 years later is several trillion to one. So, for every life that eventually exists, there are trillions that never happen. All I'm saying is that it's ludicrous to assume that history could have been so radically different, yet Shogie would still win his trillion to one lottery ticket to life.

 

[Ravi]

Black people would still exist, just not the specific individuals that decended from slave owners mixing with slaves. I don't see a lot of West African-black African Americans so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of them have slave owner (white) blood somewhere in their lineage. Without that mixing, those individuals would have never came into existence.

If Shogie is like just about every other white, product of western civilization, then religion is an important part of his history. Who knows what would have happened without it, but chances are, all the individual breeding pairs that came together over the last several millenia to ultimately produce the self-important windbag we know and love as Shogun, would have happened differently. I never said mankind owes it's existence to religion, I said each individual owes his specific existence to religion. There would probably still be 300 million people in the US, they'd just be a different 300 million than the ones that currently exist. Yes, it's kind of an "out there" concept, but statistically speaking, every single individual life is like winning the most ridiculously low odds lottery ever imagined. If you traced your ancestry back 2000 years and from that point charted every single breeding possibility, the odds that it would lead to you 2000 years later is several trillion to one. So, for every life that eventually exists, there are trillions that never happen. All I'm saying is that it's ludicrous to assume that history could have been so radically different, yet Shogie would still win his trillion to one lottery ticket to life.

So, you're saying that the existence of God is besides the point. We could have just as easily worshiped the sun, or the king or queen...correct? It's the belief that matters.

Pretty much the point of the article, and logically, it makes sense so I don't even know what you two are arguing about.

 

[frazzledgear]

My theory is that it was a stress reliever for ancient man.

It was a way to explain all the things they could not explain and that in momments of strife something to look to feel less alone and a sense that even if you die there is more left.

In feeling that death was not the end people could perform in very stressfull conditions without falling appart. When people feel all is lost they are more likely to sit down an give up.

Certainly not a new theory but I see a few problems with trying to prove religion is a "natural" result of evolution.

1. It first just jumps over an even bigger "event" -the development of a conscience. A conscience doesn't exist in the animal world. Animals kill to eat and do so without remorse, they will kill the young of even their own kind in order to eat -and lose no sleep over it. They will kill even their own kind to compete for mates and territory -again without remorse. They do what they have to do to survive.

So why would man even develop a conscience in the first place? What purpose does it serve the human race? And why is it not seen in animals? Porpoises are very intelligent, pigs are said to be very intelligent. But still without a conscience. And more importantly -we don't EXPECT animals to have a conscience, but we do expect humans to.

And don't tell me that because your dog swiped food off the table and them hung his tail between his legs when scolded, it proves he has a conscience. It only proves a desire to please his master, someone your dog perceives as being dominant over him. If no one is around, that dog will still swipe the food even if it means depriving you of eating. If he has been disciplined enough, he may refrain from doing so even when no one is around. But it only means he has been well trained. It doesn't mean he suddenly developed a conscience.

2. The emergence of religion serves no evolutionary purpose whatsoever. It does not prolong the life of an individual and it does not prolong the life of the species itself. It does not provide more food, more territory or a greater choice in mates -all of which can benefit the species as a whole. But the existence of religion in a culture doesn't do that. Yet it is a universal phenomenon. We see the emergence of religion in totally unrelated peoples and cultures in every known culture and on every continent -most of whom did not have any knowledge of other people and their religions when their own religious beliefs first emerged.

3. The theory of evolution attempts to explain the appearance of life and the diversity of plant and animal life on the planet. Since there is no "religion" spot (or one for conscience or even self-awareness) that physically exists in the brain -where if it exists, the individual has religious beliefs and if it is missing, they don't -evolution cannot possibly explain the emergence of religion, which involves a belief system -or how people THINK. The theory of evolution does not even attempt to explain why people think the way they do -and cannot and never intended to either. People have had half their brains removed in order to alleviate potentially fatal seizure disorders, some the left half and some the right half. No matter which half was removed, the individual ends up no less self-aware, their religious beliefs remained unchanged as does their conscience. If the operation is done as an adult, they suffer the inability to properly control one half of their body, if done as a child under 6, that child only suffers a residual partial vision loss. But in adult or child -whatever makes that individual "him" is unaltered.

4. My own theory is this. Because unrelated societies and cultures developed religion -and did so unrelated to other cultures and their religions -it strongly suggests that people are hardwired for it. There isn't a physical "religion" spot. Just like there isn't a "specific nest building" spot in the brains of bird -but can still only build one kind of nest, so may humans be hardwired for religious beliefs. Built with a desire to seek out their Creator who wanted them to seek Him out. Since the overwhelming majority of all people everywhere in the world believe in a Creator, Supreme Being, God, whatever name they use -and do so at any given time in history including today - it suggests that being an atheist is actually the aberration among the species. Just as sociopaths -people who have no conscience -are also the aberration of the species and not the norm.

And oddly enough, in both cases -the atheist and sociopath -considers themselves superior to the rest of the idiots on the planet.

If there is no God and we are here by pure and meaningless chance, then it has to be the biggest irony in the universe that the highest form of life has spent its entire existence -searching for the meaning of his existence.

 

[Diuretic]

A child isn't born with a conscience. The first thing a child learns is to be obedient or be punished. A conscience is developed through socialisation. Some individuals, sociopaths, fail to develop a conscience and are rightly seen as deviant. Having a conscience, then, is learned behaviour and a such is gained through experience. So while humans have the capacity for conscience, probably due to our superior brain, we have to learn how to develop one. The purpose of the development of conscience is to ensure social compiance in situations where there is little or no surveillance. That is beneficial to the survival and growth of the human species.

Religion provides a very strong surveilance mechanism. If an individual doesn't reach the upper stages of development of moral reasoning (referring to Kohlberg's stage theory) and they're still down in the first phase, the childlike phase where compliance is given because of fear of discovery and punishment, they will still comply even if there's no human surveillance because their god is watching them. A god, by definition, has at least a modicum of omnipotence. Being a very strong surveillance mechanism is beneficial for the survival and growth of the species, it ensures compliance and social order.

 

[frazzledgear]

Religion has certainly played an important role in the evolutionary process, if that's what you mean. Like I said before, in many ways most everyone here has religion to thank for their very existence. For whatever reasons, and I'm sure we could think of many, religion has been shown to be an extremely positive fitness for survival attribute.

Religion serves no evolutionary purpose at all and has not and does not benefit of the ability of the species to survive. Community living did that. You could even argue that the further development of societies to have the masses under the rule of a ruling elite was beneficial to the species as a whole.

But not only was there absolutely no evolutionary need for religious beliefs at all, it doesn't help propagate the species or prolong or in any way improve their ability to survive. So there is no evolutionary need for the development of religious beliefs. The argument that is somehow "relieves" stress is ludicrous. Are natural events somehow more stressful for human beings than every other living creature on the planet? My dog is scared witless by thunderstorms and pees on the floor when it thunders -but still doesn't practice any religious beliefs. But humans underwent evolutionary pressure and NEEDED religious beliefs? Huh? They needed it because they are more intelligent and enquiring? So -assuming there really is no God - how can that possibly make any sense to argue that accompanying that greater intelligence was a delusionary stupidity not seen elsewhere among living creatures? LOL

How weird is that argument anyway? To claim that the existence of life is a random and meaningless event while trying to also say it was an evolutionary step up the ladder when the highest form of life evolved to spend its entire existence searching for the meaning of its existence. LOL

 

[Diuretic]

I think that humans have a need to understand things. We are animals with inquiring minds. We are able to construct hypotheses about events which serve as explanations.

When lightning strikes we used to say the gods were angry and in some places humans still say the gods are angry, but in technologically advanced societies humans understand the physics of lightning.

And we're flexible, we can still understand the physics of lightning and believe in a god, we don't see the understanding of physics as negating the concept of a god. It's just like understanding and accepting the theory of evolution. It doesn't mean that the concept of god is negated. Humans are capable of observing and understanding natural phenomena and at the same time believe in a god.

But there's a limit to our understanding. All we know is what we experience through our five senses and our ability to think.

Humans have long looked about and said, "have a look at all this, that's proof that god exists, that god made all this." It isn't but it's a backup for belief.