CDZ Is kneeling the most effective protest?

[sakinago]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Or...their kneeling is just attention grabbing via fake outrage.
Now see, just being honest...it doesn't take a 3 paragraph response to get to the truth.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

 

[irosie91]

Or...their kneeling is just attention grabbing via fake outrage.
Now see, just being honest...it doesn't take a 3 paragraph response to get to the truth.

so true-----but SAK did write an excellent essay that touched on many valid points

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Or...their kneeling is just attention grabbing via fake outrage.
Now see, just being honest...it doesn't take a 3 paragraph response to get to the truth.

so true-----but SAK did write an excellent essay that touched on many valid points

I agree, I wasn't being a smart ass...just honest.

 

[shockedcanadian]

What I find odd is when Tim Tebow kneeled in prayer he was mercilessly attacked by the media, but kneeling for the anthem is acceptable. The symbolism of one is more offensive than the other, though the paying public disagrees.

Of all of Trumps goals and accomplishments, his calling out and challenging of the media might be his greatest contribution in the long run. This point must chap the hide of so many who had been given a free pass.

I will say in my opinion, kneeling for the flag in protest is not the most effective form of protest. Not by a long shot.

 

[irosie91]

What I find odd is when Tim Tebow kneeled in prayer he was mercilessly attacked by the media, but kneeling for the anthem is acceptable. The symbolism of one is more offensive than the other, though the paying public disagrees.

Of all of Trumps goals and accomplishments, his calling out and challenging of the media might be his greatest contribution in the long run. This point must chap the hide of so many who had been given a free pass.

I will say in my opinion, kneeling for the flag in protest is not the most effective form of protest. Not by a long shot.

"effective"? depends on the nature of the "effect" sought. It is damned annoying but no one bleeds

 

[Skull Pilot]

As usual these "protests" are meaningless since the idiots involved don't actually DO anything.

Just think if these millionaire players put their money where their big mouths are what they could get done to actually make a change for the causes they claim to believe in.

But we these days think that a Tweet or wearing a stupid rubber bracelet is something more than what they actually are.

 

[xotoxi]

I would like to see the protests get to the next level where there is action to fix the problem:

• Get everyone to recognize and admit that there is a problem and discuss ways to fix it.
• Continue to improve training of officers regarding how they act in potentially dangerous situations.
• Educate the public (especially young black men and boys) as to how to safely and respectfully interact with officers so that innocent people are not accidentally hurt.
• Educate the police on how to respectfully interact with citizens.

I think the majority of cases with bad outcomes is due to a perfect storm of a cop, who may enter the situation with a black man with heightened sense of security based on previous experience, interacting with a black man, who may enter the situation feeling confrontational and that they are being singled out because they are black. The confrontational demeanor and the heightened sense of security often ends up with a bad outcome.

I don't think that the majority of the cases where there is a bad outcome is because of inherently racists cops (i.e "I'm gonna kill me a nigga tonight.").

 

[danielpalos]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Why should the "faithful" care what "original sinners" think?

 

[sakinago]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

They aren't getting it because the narrative of injustice you are citing is wrong. This is coming from someone who does see a problem with our police, I sympathize with BLM, I certainly do not stand with them. It is NOT systemic racism in the police force, it is NOT murder. Are there racist cops sure, not many, still they should not be police. The problem with police lies in their training, especially after almost 50 years with the war on drugs. There is a problem with police if the our soldiers in hostile war zones have stricter rules of engagement than our police do with our citizens. These cops are not getting away with literal murder, most are carrying out their training, which is what our courts of law are finding. And in the AA population where around 30% of males wind up felons, that's where the overbearing hand of the training (proverbial rubber) is meeting the population it largely effects (the road). There is also a problem with groups like BLM lying about what is happening in these cases, take for instance hands up don't shoot in the micheal brown case, that never happened. What actually happened (that we know for a fact) is micheal brown punched the officer hard enough in the face to fracture his eye bone while he was sitting in his cruiser, then there was a struggle for the officers firearm in the cruiser, where brown was shot in the arm. Brown tried to flee as the officer got out, ordered him to stop, which brown (according to his friend who was present caught on video minutes after), charged the officer, the officer shot and struck him multiple time IN HIS FRONTSIDE, where he died. Which the friend of brown said "I thought the cop was missing BC Mike just kept coming." So the actual evidence very closely aligns to the cops testimony on what happened in the shooting. And those who claimed otherwise, it was found out that they weren't at the scene and did not actually witness it.

So do you actually want change, or do you just want to be defiant?

 

[Votto]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say liberals not paying their taxes would be the best protest.

When it comes to money, people listen.

After all, do you really want to pay taxes to a racist government, hmm?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, from the perspective of being noticed, it is a very effective form of protest. The problem is some people will always choose to see things according to their own agenda.

 

[danielpalos]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say liberals not paying their taxes would be the best protest.

When it comes to money, people listen.

After all, do you really want to pay taxes to a racist government, hmm?

As a liberal, I don't complain about taxes. Only whiners do that.

 

[Votto]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say liberals not paying their taxes would be the best protest.

When it comes to money, people listen.

After all, do you really want to pay taxes to a racist government, hmm?

As a liberal, I don't complain about taxes. Only whiners do that.

Well both parties insist on putting us into insurmountable debt that will eventually destroy the Republic.

Dims want to raise taxes and then turn around and give free everything, and the GOP want's to lower taxes and go to war over seas.

Either way it results in pretty much the same outcome.

 

[danielpalos]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say liberals not paying their taxes would be the best protest.

When it comes to money, people listen.

After all, do you really want to pay taxes to a racist government, hmm?

As a liberal, I don't complain about taxes. Only whiners do that.

Well both parties insist on putting us into insurmountable debt that will eventually destroy the Republic.

Dims want to raise taxes and then turn around and give free everything, and the GOP want's to lower taxes and go to war over seas.

Either way it results in pretty much the same outcome.

I am advocating ending our drug war to pay for health care.

Marijuana Sales Totaled $6.7 Billion In 2016

 

[Votto]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say liberals not paying their taxes would be the best protest.

When it comes to money, people listen.

After all, do you really want to pay taxes to a racist government, hmm?

As a liberal, I don't complain about taxes. Only whiners do that.

Well both parties insist on putting us into insurmountable debt that will eventually destroy the Republic.

Dims want to raise taxes and then turn around and give free everything, and the GOP want's to lower taxes and go to war over seas.

Either way it results in pretty much the same outcome.

I am advocating ending our drug war to pay for health care.

Marijuana Sales Totaled $6.7 Billion In 2016

Right, bring in more governmental revenue that they will use that revenue to pay for things..................you do know how things really work in government, don't you?

 

[sakinago]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, from the perspective of being noticed, it is a very effective form of protest. The problem is some people will always choose to see things according to their own agenda.

If that's your goal is to get noticed, ok, but that doesn't do anything at all to actually "start a conversation" about the topic. All it's doing is just pissing both sides off, and starting a heated argument about the method of "starting a conversation" in kneeling for the anthem. It hasn't done squat when it comes to actual change, it's just galvanized both side further. Nobody on either side is having an honest conversation, nobody is listening, and BOTH SIDES NEED TO START LISTENING. Which will not happen if your starting point is doing something that the people you're trying to convince find disrespectful, and then try to tell them it isn't disrespectful from your view, and continue to do it.

If I was trying to convince a Muslim village in Afghanistan that honor killing is bad, and if by doing that I'm drawing Muhammad in front of them...do you really think that's going to work!? If I go to a traditional Japanese house to try to convince them that they should buy my shoes, and I'm walking all over their place in my shoes (which they consider disrespectful even though I don't) do you think I'm going to get any where with them? You need to actually listen to the other side. That doesn't mean listen and ignore, or listen and then turn around and try to invalidate what they're saying to you. There is a better way to protest that, just like there is a way way way better and uniting way Trump could've have said players should stand for the flag, he didn't, and he messed up big time (if he was trying to be uniting, he's not interested in that at all). If you think what trump said was stupid, divisive and wrong, but think that players should keep kneeling, you're guilty of the same damn thing. It may not be as "bad" as what trump said, but does that even matter? It should if your goal is to bring about change, if that isn't your goal, then keep cheering on the players kneeling for the anthem, and leave the actual honest "conversation" to the people who actually do care.

 

[Votto]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, from the perspective of being noticed, it is a very effective form of protest. The problem is some people will always choose to see things according to their own agenda.

If that's your goal is to get noticed, ok, but that doesn't do anything at all to actually "start a conversation" about the topic. All it's doing is just pissing both sides off, and starting a heated argument about the method of "starting a conversation" in kneeling for the anthem. It hasn't done squat when it comes to actual change, it's just galvanized both side further. Nobody on either side is having an honest conversation, nobody is listening, and BOTH SIDES NEED TO START LISTENING. Which will not happen if your starting point is doing something that the people you're trying to convince find disrespectful, and then try to tell them it isn't disrespectful from your view, and continue to do it.

If I was trying to convince a Muslim village in Afghanistan that honor killing is bad, and if by doing that I'm drawing Muhammad in front of them...do you really think that's going to work!? If I go to a traditional Japanese house to try to convince them that they should buy my shoes, and I'm walking all over their place in my shoes (which they consider disrespectful even though I don't) do you think I'm going to get any where with them? You need to actually listen to the other side. That doesn't mean listen and ignore, or listen and then turn around and try to invalidate what they're saying to you. There is a better way to protest that, just like there is a way way way better and uniting way Trump could've have said players should stand for the flag, he didn't, and he messed up big time (if he was trying to be uniting, he's not interested in that at all). If you think what trump said was stupid, divisive and wrong, but think that players should keep kneeling, you're guilty of the same damn thing. It may not be as "bad" as what trump said, but does that even matter? It should if your goal is to bring about change, if that isn't your goal, then keep cheering on the players kneeling for the anthem, and leave the actual honest "conversation" to the people who actually do care.

 

[sakinago]

What I find odd is when Tim Tebow kneeled in prayer he was mercilessly attacked by the media, but kneeling for the anthem is acceptable. The symbolism of one is more offensive than the other, though the paying public disagrees.

Of all of Trumps goals and accomplishments, his calling out and challenging of the media might be his greatest contribution in the long run. This point must chap the hide of so many who had been given a free pass.

I will say in my opinion, kneeling for the flag in protest is not the most effective form of protest. Not by a long shot.

Why the hell are we still bringing up tebow? Completely different situation.