Debate Now Is it possible to be a moderate in today's political climate?

[Statistikhengst]

Heads-up!

I am creating this debate because of a very, very enlightening individual and group conversations I have been having with BluePhantom, nat4900 and -S- .

In what can only be described as a VERY polarized society in the USA, there have got to be more moderates than people actually realize, but they are often poo-poo'ed as being "wishy-washy" or as having "no backbone". I'm not so sure about that. Let's find out if that is so.

I myself am often called a wild, out-there Liberal, but I bet that the majority of my Liberal and Conservative friends have no idea where I stand on many issues. And I bet they would be surprised.

So, here is how this debate is going to go. There are five rules:

1.) no ad-homs. Be friendly, be respectful, and remember that if you participate, you are exposing part of your innermost-self for others to see. If you stick with being friendly and respectful, you will never violate the spirit of this debate. By ad-homs, I mean ad-homs against any member or any group of people in our society.

2.) Look at these 3 rubriks of issues and decide where you stand on each issue: PRO or CONTRA . Feel free to list reasons why you take a specific side of each of these issues or their current application thereof. If you are UNDECIDED, then simply write UNDECIDED. Or maybe it's a little more complicated than that, so you can write something like "DEPENDS".

The three rubriks are color coded.

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy​

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

NATO?

Israel / Iran ...

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues​

Net Neutrality

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Legalization of Marijuana

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

Prison system: death penalty

Legal system: tort reform

Cops: body-cams?

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Drones, droning, privacy issues

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Immigration, Immigration reform

(Many of these above issues seem to tie-in with the issue of "Religious Liberty", so some may want to combine answers for a number of issues and bring in "Religious Liberty" as well, but would need to define it first. I myself am refraining from the religious aspect as could be applied to most of these issues, just because I feel that is the right way for me to proceed.)

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Those appear to me to be the leading issues of our day. If I missed something and you think it is important, then feel free to add it. No, I have not forgotten the 10th, 14th, 15th or 17th amendments, but they can gladly mentioned on your part pertaining to issues of the day.

The goal of this is for each person to discover for himself exactly how far to the Right or to the Left he is, generally speaking, or if he is maybe more in the middle.


3.) At the end of your posting, make a self-assessment.

4.) It is allowed to question others about why they believe something. In fact, it's encouraged.

However, it is NOT allowed to use ad homs like "Well, how can you vote so-and-so but believe so-and-so?". That is an absolute no go, because voting itself is a private issue and should stay private. And such stuff looks like accusations of hypocrisy and I believe that no one should be called a hypocrite for what he believes. It's the difference between belief and action that could cause one to argue hypocrisy, but let's stay away from that.

5.) If you quote someone, you MUST use the quote function, otherwise, with all of this copying of rubriks, it can get messy very fast and like a game of telephone, soon we don't know who said what... In using the quote function, you are free to cut out the parts of that member's stuff that you don't want to address, but use ellipses in order to make sure that we know you are excepting something. Excerpting is allowed as long as you do not deliberately change the meaning or intent of the poster whom you are quoting.

My gut tells me that we will discover things about other members that no one really knew, and that few of us are pure "anything". I believe there is no such thing as a pure Liberal or a pure Conservative - we all are somewhere on a scale in between. It's just a matter of direction.

I will begin in posting no. 2 and encourage all of you to copy the three big rubriks into your posting and edit as you wish and need, so that the color schemes keep us organized. I think you will find that some issues need just a couple of words, others need a lot.

To debate this is going to take time and some serious reflection. Off-the-cuff thinking is not the mode to employ for this debate. If you have already made a response within 30 seconds of reading the OP, then you really have not gone through all the rubriks. This is much more than a "check the box" type of thing. My own self-analysis took 45 minutes, but I'm glad I did it.

Other than that, there are no other rules. Treat each other really well and remember, in doing this, you are baring a lot of your own soul by putting most all of your views out there at once.

Good luck,

Stat

PS. cereal_killer and all of the MODS are also invited to participate, and I mean, all of them. I also encourage every single member of USMB to give it a try.

This debate could, under the best of circumstances, become of the finest debates that USMB has ever seen. But that depends on all of us.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Where I stand:

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up) -PRO
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down) - CONTRA

I am pro-Liberal economic policies because statistically, the economy has done better under Democratic presidents than under Republican presidents, on the whole, or has recovered from a Democratic administration that inherited an economic mess from a Republican administration.


Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

I am for pure-single payer, because I have experience with such a system and know first-hand that it works like a top. This puts me to the Left of Obamacare.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take. -strongly PRO.

Slight economic diet for over 70 years. We must spend less than we bring in, enough to completely erase the interest on the debt and then some. Do it over 70 years time, and then the debt should be at such a small level that it is insignificant. Our Republic has lived from debt every single year since it's exception, excluding one single year in the 1830s. Notice that I never wrote "Debt elimination".

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment? strongly PRO, enacted in three or four parts, over 16 years, or 4 presidential terms. For instance, in the first 4 years, the deficit is allowed to go only so and so much % over budget, in the next four 4 years, less, in the next four years, less and so on.

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance. DEPENDS.

Not all trade agreements are equal. Most on the Right loved NAFTA when it first went through. In fact, Bill Clinton got it passed with Republican votes in the 1990s. Now, practically everyone says they hate it, that it caused Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound". Who knows for sure. I think the trade agreement with India ( Vikrant ) is one of the smartest moves of the Obama administration and obviously, with Asian partners growing in strength, we must protect our interests there. We cannot hide from trade agreements.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy​

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)

Reduce, slowly but surely, over 50 years time.

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy? NEITHER NOR

We live in a world where being isolationistic is physically impossible, but constant interventions have cost us TRILLIONS of dollar. It's time for interventionism to stop. I also think it's time to slowly phase out most of our presence in Europe, without leaving NATO.

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not? NO, it does not. It needs to stop.

NATO - PRO, but with a reduced presence.

Israel / Iran - strongly PRO-Israel!

On Iran, conflicted. Not sure that any solution will work, but that 10 years of behind-the-scenes diplomacy on the part of 7 nations has earned the right to be at least tried out.

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues​

Net Neutrality - must be maintained. The Internet should stay as free as possible.

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

For me, it is not a religious issue, it is a legal issue. Traditional marriage, as it has been called, as been altered many times over the last 2,000 years. This is just another step in the evolution of marriage. All it does is to grant same-sex partners the same protections and financial benefits under the law as it already does hetero married couples. And I am speaking as a straight man who has a child.

abortion: pro-life, pro choice?

I am pro-life. I believe that abortion is inherently wrong and that only in the most extreme of cases (incest, rape, miscarriage is highly likely and a direct threat to the life of the mother) should abortions be performed. For me, it is not a religious issue, but it is an ethical one and deals with the life of the unborn life-form within the mother. Whether or not you want to call a fetus a "human being" or not, it is still a life-form, one that was created through human sexual activity, on cannot protect itself, and if we are going to claim to be a fair and benevolent society, then we must protect the lives of unborn life-forms. For me, the life of the more vulnerable has 1st priority in this case. But I am also strongly pro-contraception. There is no reason in the world to not use contraception to avoid having children before one is willing and ready to have one. On this issue, I separate myself strongly from most Liberals.


Legalization of Marijuana - STRONGLY CONTRA

I believe that the marijuana legalization movement is wrong, that this substance is far more dangerous when used as a recreational drug as people want to admit. I am for use of medical marijuana, under the control of a licensed physician. On this issue, I separate myself strongly from most Liberals.

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control - PRO 2nd Amendment, but..

...and this is an important but: I am against semi-automatic weapons of any sort on the streets and do not believe this was the intent of our Founders, that were they to see what is happening today, they would recoil in horror. I also do not believe that there is any justification for any kind of armed insurrection within the USA against the Federal Governement, using the 2nd amendment as a basis. It is just a matter of decades before mini-nuclear weapons will be available, the size of wrist-watches. Are we going to cover them as protected under the 2nd amendment, too? On this issue, I am in the mddle.

Prison system: death penalty - PRO, in the most extreme of cases

But, the standards need to be uniform and this should NOT be a states-rights issue. Calling the death penalty "barbaric" doesn't cut it with me. Tell that to the family of murder victims. And tell that to the family of murder victims where perps deliberately picked a state that does NOT have the death penalty in order to commit mass murder. Mass murder should always be punished with the death penalty, as a strong deterrent to cause the next potential mass murderer to think twice. If putting a mass murderer to death, keeps another group of 10 people somewhere else from being murdered, even just once, then the death penalty has served its purpose, imo. On this issue, I separate myself strongly from most liberals.

Legal system: tort reform - PRO

Cops: body-cams? - strongly PRO

protects the cops against false accusations, helps the cops to remember to always behave themselves properly, provides clarity in establish and exact time-line of event in each and every criminal case and adds neutral evidence in every case. Video cams cannot lie. Body-cams for all cops is a win-win situation for everybody. This should easily be a 100% vote in the US Congress, should a bill to mandate this come up.

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges -

CONTRA for Congress, PRO for Judges who are non-elected. For elected officials, we already have term-limits, they are called "elections".

Drones, droning, privacy issues - this is juristic new-land for all of us, entering an age where drones down to the size of small birds can photogaph and film pretty much every aspect of a person's life, or drop a bomb on/ shoot a missile at people. This is plain old inhuman. But the Pandora's box is now opened, I see no hope of it ever closing. On this one, the Libertarians who have been screaming very loudly about the growing danger of this are right, imo.

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Don't end the Electoral college: mend it! I made a huge thread on this in the CDZ more than one year ago, covering my own recommendations for electioneering:

Electioneering US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

The OP is so large, it encompasses 5 postings, and the one pertinent to the EC is in posting number 3.

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

We have a problem with racism, to be sure. We are talking about it far too much and not doing enough. We are stoking emotions without actually doing tangible things. In doing so, we excacerbate an already bad situation and give racists even more verbal ammunition.

Immigration, Immigration reform - PRO immigration reform.

To use the words of a very Conservative friend of mine:

1.) you are never going to be able to root out all 11 million who are here illegally
2.) it will cost far more to do it than it is worth to do it
3.) it will cause a shadow economy to crash, a shadow economy that should actually be adding to our economy.

So, I say: close the border with a physical fence, an underground "moat" and an electronic fence. Pass Obama's immigration reform and be done with it.

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Self assesment: I'm more of a Heinz 57 than most people would think. I am certainly not a pure-Liberal but far enough away from Conservativism that I would never be considered a Conservative.

I consider myself in the middle to the Left of middle on economic issues, in the middle to the Right of middle on national defense issues, but either strongly to the left or strongly to the right on social/constitutional issues, and in one case, strongly Libertarian.

Specifically, on Israel, marijuana legalization, trade agreements, NATO, abortion, death penalty, tort reform, term-limits, it is fair to say that I am strongly on the RIGHT.

But on Immigration Reform, Healthcare, bottom-up economic policy, interventionism, nation-building, marriage equality - there is no doubt I come in strongly on the LEFT.

On droning, I come in squarely on the Libertarian side of the issue.

On the other issues, it's harder to define. Because humans are complex beings.

In sum-total, when I look at my own responses, I am therefore more of a moderate than I realize.
I suppose one would have called me a Blue-Dog Democrat in Bill Clinton's day. Maybe, maybe not.

So, yes, I do think it's possible to be a "Moderate" in today's political climate and that many of us are more moderate more of the time than we realize. I see no reason for a person who have to subscribe in part and parcel to every aspect of any ideology. That's just bunk.

And it is the MIDDLE in the USA that decides elections, and by extension, the direction of the Union for the next four years, each time.

Ok, who is next?

 

[Mac1958]

"Moderates" are attacked by partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum as being wishy-washy on the issues, unwilling to "take a stand". I'm sure there are people who are like that.

I use the word "Independent" to describe those of us who do have clear opinions and ideas on this issues, but whose opinions don't simply, conveniently, submissively and transparently fall on one side of the political spectrum.

Partisan ideologues hate Moderates and Independents for a very good reason: We expose their binary thought and intellectual dishonesty simply by being who we are.

A partisan ideologue's biggest enemy is not a partisan ideologue from the other "side"; they're easy. A partisan ideologue's biggest enemy is someone who chooses to think for themselves.

And the partisan ideologues know it Is it possible to be a Moderate/Independent in today's environment? Yes, but we're usually drowned out by the screamers on the ends who are trying to protect their turf.

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Have you ever heard of a dude named Michael Smerconish?

Great thread...........



Oh! And.......I think for myself. I may be my own worst enemy!!! LOL!

 

[Statistikhengst]

"Moderates" are attacked by partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum as being wishy-washy on the issues, unwilling to "take a stand". I'm sure there are people who are like that.

I use the word "Independent" to describe those of us who do have clear opinions and ideas on this issues, but whose opinions don't simply, conveniently, submissively and transparently fall on one side of the political spectrum.

Partisan ideologues hate Moderates and Independents for a very good reason: We expose their binary thought and intellectual dishonesty simply by being who we are.

A partisan ideologue's biggest enemy is not a partisan ideologue from the other "side"; they're easy. A partisan ideologue's biggest enemy is someone who chooses to think for themselves.

And the partisan ideologues know it

.

Waidaminnut - take time to actually do all that the OP asks. List all of your positions.

Also, please use the quote function, just as the OP requires. Otherwise, it can lead to telephone, telephone on down the road...

 

[Statistikhengst]

Have you ever heard of a dude named Michael Smerconish?

Great thread...........



Oh! And.......I think for myself. I may be my own worst enemy!!! LOL!

Yes, I know of him. And thanks, but waidaminnut - take time to actually do all that the OP asks. List all of your positions.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Have you ever heard of a dude named Michael Smerconish?

Great thread...........



Oh! And.......I think for myself. I may be my own worst enemy!!! LOL!

Yes, I know of him. And thanks, but waidaminnut - take time to actually do all that the OP asks. List all of your positions.

Dude......I'd love to.....but I have nowhere near that much patience. I might be able to do a pro-con list....but I'm not likely to expound on all of them.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Have you ever heard of a dude named Michael Smerconish?

Great thread...........



Oh! And.......I think for myself. I may be my own worst enemy!!! LOL!

Yes, I know of him. And thanks, but waidaminnut - take time to actually do all that the OP asks. List all of your positions.

Dude......I'd love to.....but I have nowhere near that much patience. I might be able to do a pro-con list....but I'm not likely to expound on all of them.

Just copy the rubriks and put in PRO or CONTRA by each point.

I bolded them in black, just to make it stick out.

That would take under 5 minutes.



Someone could always get you to expatiate on a point or two later...

 

[Sonny Clark]

Heads-up!

I am creating this debate because of a very, very enlightening individual and group conversations I have been having with BluePhantom, nat4900 and -S- .

In what can only be described as a VERY polarized society in the USA, there have got to be more moderates than people actually realize, but they are often poo-poo'ed as being "wishy-washy" or as having "no backbone". I'm not so sure about that. Let's find out if that is so.

I myself am often called a wild, out-there Liberal, but I bet that the majority of my Liberal and Conservative friends have no idea where I stand on many issues. And I bet they would be surprised.

So, here is how this debate is going to go. There are four rules:

1.) no ad-homs. Be friendly, be respectful, and remember that if you participate, you are exposing part of your innermost-self for others to see. If you stick with being friendly and respectful, you will never violate the spirit of this debate. By ad-homs, I mean ad-homs against any member or any group of people in our society.

2.) Look at these 3 rubriks of issues and decide where you stand on each issue: PRO or CONTRA . Feel free to list reasons why you take a specific side of each of these issues or their current application thereof. If you are UNDECIDED, then simply write UNDECIDED. Or maybe it's a little more complicated than that, so you can write something like "DEPENDS".

The three rubriks are color coded.

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy​

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

NATO?

Israel / Iran ...

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues​

Net Neutrality

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Legalization of Marijuana

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

Prison system: death penalty

Legal system: tort reform

Cops: body-cams?

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Drones, droning, privacy issues

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Immigration, Immigration reform

(Many of these above issues seem to tie-in with the issue of "Religious Liberty", so some may want to combine answers for a number of issues and bring in "Religious Liberty" as well, but would need to define it first. I myself am refraining from the relgious aspect as could be applied to most of these issues)

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Those appear to me to be the leading issues of our day. If I missed something and you think it is important, then feel free to add it. No, I have not forgotten the 10th, 14th, 15th or 17th amendments, but they can gladly mentioned on your part pertaining to issues of the day.

The goal of this is for each person to discover for himself exactly how far to the Right or to the Left he is, generally speaking, or if he is maybe more in the middle.


3.) At the end of your posting, make a self-assessment.

4.) It is allowed to question others about why they believe something. In fact, it's encouraged.

However, it is NOT allowed to use ad homs like "Well, how can you vote so-and-so but believe so-and-so". That is an absolute no go, because voting itself is a private issue and should stay private.

My gut tells me that we will discover things about other members that no one really knew, and that few of us are pure "anything". I believe there is no such thing as a pure Liberal or a pure Conservative - we all are somewhere on a scale in between. It's just a matter of direction.

I will begin in posting no. 2 and encourage all of you to copy the three big rubriks into your posting and edit as you wish and need, so that the color schemes keep us organized. I think you will find that some issues need just a couple of words, others need a lot.

To debate this is going to take time and some serious reflection. Off-the-cuff thinking is not the mode to employ for this debate. If you have already made a response within 30 seconds of reading the OP, then you really have not gone through all the rubriks. This is much more than a "check the box" type of thing. My own self-analysis took 45 minutes, but I'm glad I did it.

Other than that, there are no other rules. Treat each other really well and remember, in doing this, you are baring a lot of your own soul by putting most all of your views out there at once.

Good luck,

Stat

PS. cereal_killer and all of the MODS are also invited to participate, and I mean, all of them. I also encourage every single member of USMB to give it a try.

This debate could, under the best of circumstances, become of the finest debates that USMB has ever seen. But that depends on all of us.

I would fail the test. I'm NOT a Moderate, Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, Right Wing, Left Wing, nor anything other than an American for America. I believe in fair play, equality, justice, rights, freedom, liberty, fair, equal, and just representation, fair, equal, and just taxation, spending tax dollars here at home, I'm totally against senseless deadly costly wars, I believe that foreign aid should be case-by-case depending on the emergency, I'm against pork spending, I'm against corruption and fraud, I'm against bailouts, I'm against subsidies, I believe that circumstantial evidence cases should never be in our courtrooms, I believe that those responsible for placing innocent citizens in our prisons and jails should be severely punished, I'm totally against illegal immigration, I'm totally against off-shore job out-sourcing, the importing of labor, I'm totally against our unfair, unjust, and one-sided foreign trade agreements and policies, and I'm against and disagree with our self-serving government.

I strongly believe that we should take care of our Vets, the elderly, and our children, I believe in higher education, I believe in equal opportunities for all citizens, I believe in a strong military, I strongly believe that America should produce what America uses and consumes, I strongly believe in a "one-term" limit for all politicians, I'm totally against the Lobbyists control of the U.S. Congress, I believe that every citizen deserves affordable proper health care, I strongly believe in government transparency, I believe that abortion should be considered and decided case-by-case depending on the circumstances and situation, I believe in marriage as a right to choose, I'm totally against "eminent domain" unless it can be proven that the taking of property is absolutely necessary in order to serve the people, I'm totally against nuclear war, I'm totally against racism, prejudice, and discrimination, I believe in the right to privacy, I believe that the government should be by the people and for the people, I believe in prosperity and posterity, I believe in building a solid foundation for future generations, and I believe that we should be a united citizenry and nation, instead of a divided citizenry and nation.

I strongly believe in moral and ethical behavior, religion as a matter of personal choice, and helping those less fortunate and the poor. I'm totally against "out-of-control" law enforcement, and I'm totally against union labor. I'm ashamed of and angry at voters that aid and abet professional politicians, especially after seeing and experiencing the decline of this once great nation. I fear for our children and future generations. I strongly believe in technology, innovation, and advances in science. I strongly believe that "climate" is nothing more than mother nature at work, and that man's effect is minimal. I believe in protecting the environment, our natural resources, and creating alternative energy sources. I strongly believe that polluting our air, water, oceans, and land should be severely punished. I'm totally against quotas and affirmative action. I strongly believe in community, country, GOD, family, and the founding principles of America.

Now, what would you classify me as? Am I anything other than an American for America?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Rubrik I: Financial

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Liberal. I'm with Bernie.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Single payer. Obamacare not far enough.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

How? Reduce military spending and provide affordable higher education to increase revenues.

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Sounds nice. But a balanced budget isn't necessary.

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

I love trade agreements that protect US jobs and industry. Our biggest problem is that we are a net importer of finished goods while being the worlds leading exporter of raw materials. Fucking stupid.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Addressed above. Cut military spending. War on terror is a police matter.

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

Respect the sovereignty of other nations. Don't ask them to do that which we will not do. Example.....nuclear disarmament.

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

No.

NATO?

Why not.

Israel / Iran ...

Allowing one to have nuclear weapons and not the other doesn't make sense.

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues

Net Neutrality

Absolutely I'm for free ( all meanings of free ) internet.

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

Absolutely. This is a no brainer for a secular nation. In a hundred years, gay marriages will be very traditional.

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Pro choice. Abortions should be available, safe and rarely needed due to proper family planning and education.

Legalization of Marijuana

Legalize it. It helps people in so many ways.......and it's fun.

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

I am a gun owner. But I don't need to have it with me all the time. Kids shooting themselves and their siblings is a real bummer. One should have to carry insurance if they own a firearm.

Prison system: death penalty

Nope. One mistake is too many.

Legal system: tort reform

Sure. But it's not an issue that will solve our health care problem.

Cops: body-cams?

Yes. My son has one. It makes him a better cop.

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Yes.

Drones, droning, privacy issues

No. This is one of Obama's true fuck ups.

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Voting rights? Everyone votes. We have no voter fraud problem. We have a voter apathy problem.

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Not enough. We've not made enough progress.

Immigration, Immigration reform

This is America. We are nation of immigrants. Fine those who hire undocumented workers.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Heads-up!

I am creating this debate because of a very, very enlightening individual and group conversations I have been having with BluePhantom, nat4900 and -S- .

In what can only be described as a VERY polarized society in the USA, there have got to be more moderates than people actually realize, but they are often poo-poo'ed as being "wishy-washy" or as having "no backbone". I'm not so sure about that. Let's find out if that is so.

I myself am often called a wild, out-there Liberal, but I bet that the majority of my Liberal and Conservative friends have no idea where I stand on many issues. And I bet they would be surprised.

So, here is how this debate is going to go. There are four rules:

1.) no ad-homs. Be friendly, be respectful, and remember that if you participate, you are exposing part of your innermost-self for others to see. If you stick with being friendly and respectful, you will never violate the spirit of this debate. By ad-homs, I mean ad-homs against any member or any group of people in our society.

2.) Look at these 3 rubriks of issues and decide where you stand on each issue: PRO or CONTRA . Feel free to list reasons why you take a specific side of each of these issues or their current application thereof. If you are UNDECIDED, then simply write UNDECIDED. Or maybe it's a little more complicated than that, so you can write something like "DEPENDS".

The three rubriks are color coded.

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy​

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

NATO?

Israel / Iran ...

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues​

Net Neutrality

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Legalization of Marijuana

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

Prison system: death penalty

Legal system: tort reform

Cops: body-cams?

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Drones, droning, privacy issues

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Immigration, Immigration reform

(Many of these above issues seem to tie-in with the issue of "Religious Liberty", so some may want to combine answers for a number of issues and bring in "Religious Liberty" as well, but would need to define it first. I myself am refraining from the relgious aspect as could be applied to most of these issues)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those appear to me to be the leading issues of our day. If I missed something and you think it is important, then feel free to add it. No, I have not forgotten the 10th, 14th, 15th or 17th amendments, but they can gladly mentioned on your part pertaining to issues of the day.

The goal of this is for each person to discover for himself exactly how far to the Right or to the Left he is, generally speaking, or if he is maybe more in the middle.


3.) At the end of your posting, make a self-assessment.

4.) It is allowed to question others about why they believe something. In fact, it's encouraged.

However, it is NOT allowed to use ad homs like "Well, how can you vote so-and-so but believe so-and-so". That is an absolute no go, because voting itself is a private issue and should stay private.

My gut tells me that we will discover things about other members that no one really knew, and that few of us are pure "anything". I believe there is no such thing as a pure Liberal or a pure Conservative - we all are somewhere on a scale in between. It's just a matter of direction.

I will begin in posting no. 2 and encourage all of you to copy the three big rubriks into your posting and edit as you wish and need, so that the color schemes keep us organized. I think you will find that some issues need just a couple of words, others need a lot.

To debate this is going to take time and some serious reflection. Off-the-cuff thinking is not the mode to employ for this debate. If you have already made a response within 30 seconds of reading the OP, then you really have not gone through all the rubriks. This is much more than a "check the box" type of thing. My own self-analysis took 45 minutes, but I'm glad I did it.

Other than that, there are no other rules. Treat each other really well and remember, in doing this, you are baring a lot of your own soul by putting most all of your views out there at once.

Good luck,

Stat

PS. cereal_killer and all of the MODS are also invited to participate, and I mean, all of them. I also encourage every single member of USMB to give it a try.

This debate could, under the best of circumstances, become of the finest debates that USMB has ever seen. But that depends on all of us.

I would fail the test. I'm NOT a Moderate, Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, Right Wing, Left Wing, nor anything other than an American for America. I believe in fair play, equality, justice, rights, freedom, liberty, fair, equal, and just representation, fair, equal, and just taxation, spending tax dollars here at home, I'm totally against senseless deadly costly wars, I believe that foreign aid should be case-by-case depending on the emergency, I'm against pork spending, I'm against corruption and fraud, I'm against bailouts, I'm against subsidies, I believe that circumstantial evidence cases should never be in our courtrooms, I believe that those responsible for placing innocent citizens in our prisons and jails should be severely punished, I'm totally against illegal immigration, I'm totally against off-shore job out-sourcing, the importing of labor, I'm totally against our unfair, unjust, and one-sided foreign trade agreements and policies, and I'm against and disagree with our self-serving government.

I strongly believe that we should take care of our Vets, the elderly, and our children, I believe in higher education, I believe in equal opportunities for all citizens, I believe in a strong military, I strongly believe that America should produce what America uses and consumes, I strongly believe in a "one-term" limit for all politicians, I'm totally against the Lobbyists control of the U.S. Congress, I believe that every citizen deserves affordable proper health care, I strongly believe in government transparency, I believe that abortion should be considered and decided case-by-case depending on the circumstances and situation, I believe in marriage as a right to choose, I'm totally against "eminent domain" unless it can be proven that the taking of property is absolutely necessary in order to serve the people, I'm totally against nuclear war, I'm totally against racism, prejudice, and discrimination, I believe in the right to privacy, I believe that the government should be by the people and for the people, I believe in prosperity and posterity, I believe in building a solid foundation for future generations, and I believe that we should be a united citizenry and nation, instead of a divided citizenry and nation.

I strongly believe in moral and ethical behavior, religion as a matter of personal choice, and helping those less fortunate and the poor. I'm totally against "out-of-control" law enforcement, and I'm totally against union labor. I'm ashamed of and angry at voters that aid and abet professional politicians, especially after seeing and experiencing the decline of this once great nation. I fear for our children and future generations. I strongly believe in technology, innovation, and advances in science. I strongly believe that "climate" is nothing more than mother nature at work, and that man's effect is minimal. I believe in protecting the environment, our natural resources, and creating alternative energy sources. I strongly believe that polluting our air, water, oceans, and land should be severely punished. I'm totally against quotas and affirmative action. I strongly believe in community, country, GOD, family, and the founding principles of America.

Now, what would you classify me as? Am I anything other than an American for America?

Waidaminnut. It's not my job to classify you. In fact, I don't want to, because that is essentially pretty private.

I still encourage you to copy all three rubriks into a new posting and at least type in PRO or CONTRA. Give it a try.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Rubrik I: Financial

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Liberal. I'm with Bernie.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Single payer. Obamacare not far enough.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

How? Reduce military spending and provide affordable higher education to increase revenues.

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Sounds nice. But a balanced budget isn't necessary.

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

I love trade agreements that protect US jobs and industry. Our biggest problem is that we are a net importer of finished goods while being the worlds leading exporter of raw materials. Fucking stupid.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Addressed above. Cut military spending. War on terror is a police matter.

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

Respect the sovereignty of other nations. Don't ask them to do that which we will not do. Example.....nuclear disarmament.

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

No.

NATO?

Why not.

Israel / Iran ...

Allowing one to have nuclear weapons and not the other doesn't make sense.

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues

Net Neutrality

Absolutely I'm for free ( all meanings of free ) internet.

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

Absolutely. This is a no brainer for a secular nation. In a hundred years, gay marriages will be very traditional.

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Pro choice. Abortions should be available, safe and rarely needed due to proper family planning and education.

Legalization of Marijuana

Legalize it. It helps people in so many ways.......and it's fun.

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

I am a gun owner. But I don't need to have it with me all the time. Kids shooting themselves and their siblings is a real bummer. One should have to carry insurance if they own a firearm.

Prison system: death penalty

Nope. One mistake is too many.

Legal system: tort reform

Sure. But it's not an issue that will solve our health care problem.

Cops: body-cams?

Yes. My son has one. It makes him a better cop.

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Yes.

Drones, droning, privacy issues

No. This is one of Obama's true fuck ups.

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Voting rights? Everyone votes. We have no voter fraud problem. We have a voter apathy problem.

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Not enough. We've not made enough progress.

Immigration, Immigration reform

This is America. We are nation of immigrants. Fine those who hire undocumented workers.

Ok, we have a winner. At least we have a good start.

This is the kind of input we need to have a real debate.

So, based on your own stands, do you see yourself as Liberal, Conservative, or Moderate, or something undefinable?

 

[Sonny Clark]

Heads-up!

I am creating this debate because of a very, very enlightening individual and group conversations I have been having with BluePhantom, nat4900 and -S- .

In what can only be described as a VERY polarized society in the USA, there have got to be more moderates than people actually realize, but they are often poo-poo'ed as being "wishy-washy" or as having "no backbone". I'm not so sure about that. Let's find out if that is so.

I myself am often called a wild, out-there Liberal, but I bet that the majority of my Liberal and Conservative friends have no idea where I stand on many issues. And I bet they would be surprised.

So, here is how this debate is going to go. There are four rules:

1.) no ad-homs. Be friendly, be respectful, and remember that if you participate, you are exposing part of your innermost-self for others to see. If you stick with being friendly and respectful, you will never violate the spirit of this debate. By ad-homs, I mean ad-homs against any member or any group of people in our society.

2.) Look at these 3 rubriks of issues and decide where you stand on each issue: PRO or CONTRA . Feel free to list reasons why you take a specific side of each of these issues or their current application thereof. If you are UNDECIDED, then simply write UNDECIDED. Or maybe it's a little more complicated than that, so you can write something like "DEPENDS".

The three rubriks are color coded.

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy​

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

NATO?

Israel / Iran ...

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues​

Net Neutrality

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Legalization of Marijuana

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

Prison system: death penalty

Legal system: tort reform

Cops: body-cams?

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Drones, droning, privacy issues

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Immigration, Immigration reform

(Many of these above issues seem to tie-in with the issue of "Religious Liberty", so some may want to combine answers for a number of issues and bring in "Religious Liberty" as well, but would need to define it first. I myself am refraining from the relgious aspect as could be applied to most of these issues)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those appear to me to be the leading issues of our day. If I missed something and you think it is important, then feel free to add it. No, I have not forgotten the 10th, 14th, 15th or 17th amendments, but they can gladly mentioned on your part pertaining to issues of the day.

The goal of this is for each person to discover for himself exactly how far to the Right or to the Left he is, generally speaking, or if he is maybe more in the middle.


3.) At the end of your posting, make a self-assessment.

4.) It is allowed to question others about why they believe something. In fact, it's encouraged.

However, it is NOT allowed to use ad homs like "Well, how can you vote so-and-so but believe so-and-so". That is an absolute no go, because voting itself is a private issue and should stay private.

My gut tells me that we will discover things about other members that no one really knew, and that few of us are pure "anything". I believe there is no such thing as a pure Liberal or a pure Conservative - we all are somewhere on a scale in between. It's just a matter of direction.

I will begin in posting no. 2 and encourage all of you to copy the three big rubriks into your posting and edit as you wish and need, so that the color schemes keep us organized. I think you will find that some issues need just a couple of words, others need a lot.

To debate this is going to take time and some serious reflection. Off-the-cuff thinking is not the mode to employ for this debate. If you have already made a response within 30 seconds of reading the OP, then you really have not gone through all the rubriks. This is much more than a "check the box" type of thing. My own self-analysis took 45 minutes, but I'm glad I did it.

Other than that, there are no other rules. Treat each other really well and remember, in doing this, you are baring a lot of your own soul by putting most all of your views out there at once.

Good luck,

Stat

PS. cereal_killer and all of the MODS are also invited to participate, and I mean, all of them. I also encourage every single member of USMB to give it a try.

This debate could, under the best of circumstances, become of the finest debates that USMB has ever seen. But that depends on all of us.

I would fail the test. I'm NOT a Moderate, Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, Right Wing, Left Wing, nor anything other than an American for America. I believe in fair play, equality, justice, rights, freedom, liberty, fair, equal, and just representation, fair, equal, and just taxation, spending tax dollars here at home, I'm totally against senseless deadly costly wars, I believe that foreign aid should be case-by-case depending on the emergency, I'm against pork spending, I'm against corruption and fraud, I'm against bailouts, I'm against subsidies, I believe that circumstantial evidence cases should never be in our courtrooms, I believe that those responsible for placing innocent citizens in our prisons and jails should be severely punished, I'm totally against illegal immigration, I'm totally against off-shore job out-sourcing, the importing of labor, I'm totally against our unfair, unjust, and one-sided foreign trade agreements and policies, and I'm against and disagree with our self-serving government.

I strongly believe that we should take care of our Vets, the elderly, and our children, I believe in higher education, I believe in equal opportunities for all citizens, I believe in a strong military, I strongly believe that America should produce what America uses and consumes, I strongly believe in a "one-term" limit for all politicians, I'm totally against the Lobbyists control of the U.S. Congress, I believe that every citizen deserves affordable proper health care, I strongly believe in government transparency, I believe that abortion should be considered and decided case-by-case depending on the circumstances and situation, I believe in marriage as a right to choose, I'm totally against "eminent domain" unless it can be proven that the taking of property is absolutely necessary in order to serve the people, I'm totally against nuclear war, I'm totally against racism, prejudice, and discrimination, I believe in the right to privacy, I believe that the government should be by the people and for the people, I believe in prosperity and posterity, I believe in building a solid foundation for future generations, and I believe that we should be a united citizenry and nation, instead of a divided citizenry and nation.

I strongly believe in moral and ethical behavior, religion as a matter of personal choice, and helping those less fortunate and the poor. I'm totally against "out-of-control" law enforcement, and I'm totally against union labor. I'm ashamed of and angry at voters that aid and abet professional politicians, especially after seeing and experiencing the decline of this once great nation. I fear for our children and future generations. I strongly believe in technology, innovation, and advances in science. I strongly believe that "climate" is nothing more than mother nature at work, and that man's effect is minimal. I believe in protecting the environment, our natural resources, and creating alternative energy sources. I strongly believe that polluting our air, water, oceans, and land should be severely punished. I'm totally against quotas and affirmative action. I strongly believe in community, country, GOD, family, and the founding principles of America.

Now, what would you classify me as? Am I anything other than an American for America?

Waidaminnut. It's not my job to classify you. In fact, I don't want to, because that is essentially pretty private.

I still encourage you to copy all three rubriks into a new posting and at least type in PRO or CONTRA. Give it a try.

My "pros" and "cons" are listed. Pick the ones you want. I believe what I have said is self-explanatory. Thanks.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Rubrik I: Financial

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Liberal. I'm with Bernie.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Single payer. Obamacare not far enough.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

How? Reduce military spending and provide affordable higher education to increase revenues.

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Sounds nice. But a balanced budget isn't necessary.

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

I love trade agreements that protect US jobs and industry. Our biggest problem is that we are a net importer of finished goods while being the worlds leading exporter of raw materials. Fucking stupid.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Addressed above. Cut military spending. War on terror is a police matter.

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

Respect the sovereignty of other nations. Don't ask them to do that which we will not do. Example.....nuclear disarmament.

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

No.

NATO?

Why not.

Israel / Iran ...

Allowing one to have nuclear weapons and not the other doesn't make sense.

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues

Net Neutrality

Absolutely I'm for free ( all meanings of free ) internet.

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

Absolutely. This is a no brainer for a secular nation. In a hundred years, gay marriages will be very traditional.

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Pro choice. Abortions should be available, safe and rarely needed due to proper family planning and education.

Legalization of Marijuana

Legalize it. It helps people in so many ways.......and it's fun.

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

I am a gun owner. But I don't need to have it with me all the time. Kids shooting themselves and their siblings is a real bummer. One should have to carry insurance if they own a firearm.

Prison system: death penalty

Nope. One mistake is too many.

Legal system: tort reform

Sure. But it's not an issue that will solve our health care problem.

Cops: body-cams?

Yes. My son has one. It makes him a better cop.

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Yes.

Drones, droning, privacy issues

No. This is one of Obama's true fuck ups.

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Voting rights? Everyone votes. We have no voter fraud problem. We have a voter apathy problem.

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Not enough. We've not made enough progress.

Immigration, Immigration reform

This is America. We are nation of immigrants. Fine those who hire undocumented workers.

Ok, we have a winner. At least we have a good start.

This is the kind of input we need to have a real debate.

So, based on your own stands, do you see yourself as Liberal, Conservative, or Moderate, or something undefinable?

I'm a liberal. But I'm pragmatic. Charges against me that I'm some kind of partisan ideologue are unfounded. I have an acute aversion to stupidity....so finding areas of agreement with today's GOP is pretty difficult for me. I always have hope, though.

Here are a couple of my litmus tests:

If you think we were created 6000 years ago and that we did not evolve from primates....you are stupid and won't get my vote.

If you think that we are not fucking up,this planet by polluting it with the residual effects of our using our resources, you are too stupid to get my vote. Same goes for those who know we are fucking up the planet but pretend that they don't so they can get votes from stupid people.

If you think that the economy trickles down.....in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.....you are too stupid to get my vote.

If you still think that invading Iraq was a positive move.....you are too stupid to get my vote.

If you think that black people have been held down by liberals who realize that they need greater opportunity......you are too stupid to get my vote.

There are more..........but that's my attention span limit b

 

[martybegan]

Rubrik I: Financial

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Economic policy isn't liberal or conservative, controlled, or uncontrolled. I take the position that you control the economy only to the needed point.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Health care was fine as it was. any attempt to make it more government controlled is foolish and typical of the need of progressives to control people in new, and more inventive ways.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

First, fix the issue below.

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Yes, except in times of war, or in deep recessions, and any year of deficit spending must be matched by a year of a surplus within 10 years.

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

The more trade the better.

R

ubrik II: National defense / foreign policy

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

There is no sense in fixing the plumbing in the house if you leave the front door open for anyone to come in and take your stuff.

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

Isolationism is wishful thinking in the current era.

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

Made up term to Bush bash. Next question.

NATO?

Yes.

Israel / Iran ...

Support Israel, Screw the Iranian government, sooner or later the Iranian people are going to get tired of the Mullahs.

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues

Net Neutrality

Don't trust it. I see progressives going from data flow to the content of the data. Once government gets its claws in, it will start censoring sooner or later.

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

Only if voted by the States individually to change their marriage contracts. The courts can't force it.

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Should be left to the States. Personally I would not vote for any abortion ban that involves the first two trimesters, but support parental notification laws, and bans on government funds for elective abortions.

Legalization of Marijuana

All for it. Treat it like alcohol and let the locals regulate it.

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

A right is a right is a right. The police should not be allowed to have any weapon an normal citizen cannot have.

Prison system: death penalty

Nothing wrong with the Death Penalty for the most serious crimes.

Legal system: tort reform

Too many frivolous lawsuits, but you don't want to make the system so restrictive as to limit legit lawsuits.

Cops: body-cams?

Yes.

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Yes for Congress, no for Judges.

Drones, droning, privacy issues

The drone stuff is overblown.

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Would keep it, but would recommend States break down their EV's by Congressional district, with the 2 senator EV's going to the winner of the State.

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Too much useless discussion, would like some actual answers.

Immigration, Immigration reform

Illegal immigrants cannot be given a free amnesty. Set up camps and make them work 5 years as laborers, after 5 years they can either go home, or get their green card. And this is a one shot deal, after that if you are illegal and caught, you go home.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Rubrik I: Financial

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Economic policy isn't liberal or conservative, controlled, or uncontrolled. I take the position that you control the economy only to the needed point.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Health care was fine as it was. any attempt to make it more government controlled is foolish and typical of the need of progressives to control people in new, and more inventive ways.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

First, fix the issue below.

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Yes, except in times of war, or in deep recessions, and any year of deficit spending must be matched by a year of a surplus within 10 years.

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

The more trade the better.

R

ubrik II: National defense / foreign policy

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

There is no sense in fixing the plumbing in the house if you leave the front door open for anyone to come in and take your stuff.

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

Isolationism is wishful thinking in the current era.

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

Made up term to Bush bash. Next question.

NATO?

Yes.

Israel / Iran ...

Support Israel, Screw the Iranian government, sooner or later the Iranian people are going to get tired of the Mullahs.

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues

Net Neutrality

Don't trust it. I see progressives going from data flow to the content of the data. Once government gets its claws in, it will start censoring sooner or later.

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

Only if voted by the States individually to change their marriage contracts. The courts can't force it.

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Should be left to the States. Personally I would not vote for any abortion ban that involves the first two trimesters, but support parental notification laws, and bans on government funds for elective abortions.

Legalization of Marijuana

All for it. Treat it like alcohol and let the locals regulate it.

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

A right is a right is a right. The police should not be allowed to have any weapon an normal citizen cannot have.

Prison system: death penalty

Nothing wrong with the Death Penalty for the most serious crimes.

Legal system: tort reform

Too many frivolous lawsuits, but you don't want to make the system so restrictive as to limit legit lawsuits.

Cops: body-cams?

Yes.

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Yes for Congress, no for Judges.

Drones, droning, privacy issues

The drone stuff is overblown.

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Would keep it, but would recommend States break down their EV's by Congressional district, with the 2 senator EV's going to the winner of the State.

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Too much useless discussion, would like some actual answers.

Immigration, Immigration reform

Illegal immigrants cannot be given a free amnesty. Set up camps and make them work 5 years as laborers, after 5 years they can either go home, or get their green card. And this is a one shot deal, after that if you are illegal and caught, you go home.

Outstanding input.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Heads-up!

I am creating this debate because of a very, very enlightening individual and group conversations I have been having with BluePhantom, nat4900 and -S- .

In what can only be described as a VERY polarized society in the USA, there have got to be more moderates than people actually realize, but they are often poo-poo'ed as being "wishy-washy" or as having "no backbone". I'm not so sure about that. Let's find out if that is so.

I myself am often called a wild, out-there Liberal, but I bet that the majority of my Liberal and Conservative friends have no idea where I stand on many issues. And I bet they would be surprised.

So, here is how this debate is going to go. There are four rules:

1.) no ad-homs. Be friendly, be respectful, and remember that if you participate, you are exposing part of your innermost-self for others to see. If you stick with being friendly and respectful, you will never violate the spirit of this debate. By ad-homs, I mean ad-homs against any member or any group of people in our society.

2.) Look at these 3 rubriks of issues and decide where you stand on each issue: PRO or CONTRA . Feel free to list reasons why you take a specific side of each of these issues or their current application thereof. If you are UNDECIDED, then simply write UNDECIDED. Or maybe it's a little more complicated than that, so you can write something like "DEPENDS".

The three rubriks are color coded.

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up)
Conservative economic policies (trickle-down)
(and for either or both, feel free to list sources and define both Liberal and Conservative as you see them)

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc.

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take?

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment?

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance.

Rubrik II: National defense / foreign policy​

Military spending: up the spending, maintain the spending, reduce the spending (thoughts about the War on Terror are probably best written here, imo)?

Isolationistic foreign policy vs. Interventionistic foreign policy?

"Nation Building" - does it work, or not?

NATO?

Israel / Iran ...

Rubrik III: Social Issues / Constitutional issues​

Net Neutrality

Marriage Equality (aka "gay" marriage vs. "traditional" marriage)

abortion - pro-life? Pro-choice?

Legalization of Marijuana

2nd amendment vs. Gun Control

Prison system: death penalty

Legal system: tort reform

Cops: body-cams?

Term limits for Congress and/or Judges?

Drones, droning, privacy issues

Electoral college: pro, contra?
Voting, voting-rights, elections

Race-Racism: too much discussion, not enough, or just right?

Immigration, Immigration reform

(Many of these above issues seem to tie-in with the issue of "Religious Liberty", so some may want to combine answers for a number of issues and bring in "Religious Liberty" as well, but would need to define it first. I myself am refraining from the relgious aspect as could be applied to most of these issues)

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Those appear to me to be the leading issues of our day. If I missed something and you think it is important, then feel free to add it. No, I have not forgotten the 10th, 14th, 15th or 17th amendments, but they can gladly mentioned on your part pertaining to issues of the day.

The goal of this is for each person to discover for himself exactly how far to the Right or to the Left he is, generally speaking, or if he is maybe more in the middle.


3.) At the end of your posting, make a self-assessment.

4.) It is allowed to question others about why they believe something. In fact, it's encouraged.

However, it is NOT allowed to use ad homs like "Well, how can you vote so-and-so but believe so-and-so". That is an absolute no go, because voting itself is a private issue and should stay private.

My gut tells me that we will discover things about other members that no one really knew, and that few of us are pure "anything". I believe there is no such thing as a pure Liberal or a pure Conservative - we all are somewhere on a scale in between. It's just a matter of direction.

I will begin in posting no. 2 and encourage all of you to copy the three big rubriks into your posting and edit as you wish and need, so that the color schemes keep us organized. I think you will find that some issues need just a couple of words, others need a lot.

To debate this is going to take time and some serious reflection. Off-the-cuff thinking is not the mode to employ for this debate. If you have already made a response within 30 seconds of reading the OP, then you really have not gone through all the rubriks. This is much more than a "check the box" type of thing. My own self-analysis took 45 minutes, but I'm glad I did it.

Other than that, there are no other rules. Treat each other really well and remember, in doing this, you are baring a lot of your own soul by putting most all of your views out there at once.

Good luck,

Stat

PS. cereal_killer and all of the MODS are also invited to participate, and I mean, all of them. I also encourage every single member of USMB to give it a try.

This debate could, under the best of circumstances, become of the finest debates that USMB has ever seen. But that depends on all of us.

I would fail the test. I'm NOT a Moderate, Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, Right Wing, Left Wing, nor anything other than an American for America. I believe in fair play, equality, justice, rights, freedom, liberty, fair, equal, and just representation, fair, equal, and just taxation, spending tax dollars here at home, I'm totally against senseless deadly costly wars, I believe that foreign aid should be case-by-case depending on the emergency, I'm against pork spending, I'm against corruption and fraud, I'm against bailouts, I'm against subsidies, I believe that circumstantial evidence cases should never be in our courtrooms, I believe that those responsible for placing innocent citizens in our prisons and jails should be severely punished, I'm totally against illegal immigration, I'm totally against off-shore job out-sourcing, the importing of labor, I'm totally against our unfair, unjust, and one-sided foreign trade agreements and policies, and I'm against and disagree with our self-serving government.

I strongly believe that we should take care of our Vets, the elderly, and our children, I believe in higher education, I believe in equal opportunities for all citizens, I believe in a strong military, I strongly believe that America should produce what America uses and consumes, I strongly believe in a "one-term" limit for all politicians, I'm totally against the Lobbyists control of the U.S. Congress, I believe that every citizen deserves affordable proper health care, I strongly believe in government transparency, I believe that abortion should be considered and decided case-by-case depending on the circumstances and situation, I believe in marriage as a right to choose, I'm totally against "eminent domain" unless it can be proven that the taking of property is absolutely necessary in order to serve the people, I'm totally against nuclear war, I'm totally against racism, prejudice, and discrimination, I believe in the right to privacy, I believe that the government should be by the people and for the people, I believe in prosperity and posterity, I believe in building a solid foundation for future generations, and I believe that we should be a united citizenry and nation, instead of a divided citizenry and nation.

I strongly believe in moral and ethical behavior, religion as a matter of personal choice, and helping those less fortunate and the poor. I'm totally against "out-of-control" law enforcement, and I'm totally against union labor. I'm ashamed of and angry at voters that aid and abet professional politicians, especially after seeing and experiencing the decline of this once great nation. I fear for our children and future generations. I strongly believe in technology, innovation, and advances in science. I strongly believe that "climate" is nothing more than mother nature at work, and that man's effect is minimal. I believe in protecting the environment, our natural resources, and creating alternative energy sources. I strongly believe that polluting our air, water, oceans, and land should be severely punished. I'm totally against quotas and affirmative action. I strongly believe in community, country, GOD, family, and the founding principles of America.

Now, what would you classify me as? Am I anything other than an American for America?

Waidaminnut. It's not my job to classify you. In fact, I don't want to, because that is essentially pretty private.

I still encourage you to copy all three rubriks into a new posting and at least type in PRO or CONTRA. Give it a try.

My "pros" and "cons" are listed. Pick the ones you want. I believe what I have said is self-explanatory. Thanks.

Alright.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I tend to assail both the left and the right in fairly equal measure, so what does that make me?

The left has abandoned liberalism as its guiding principle, it having been replaced by mindless identity politics, while the right is beholden to predatory capitalism while using religious fundies as its foot soldiers. Libertarianism is usually little more than selfishness whipped into a political ideology, communism is for disgruntled teenagers and just about any other ideology fails at some level.

The problem with political ideologies is that they represent groupthink instead of original thought. Instead of people thinking about their basic value systems and building a personal ideology from the ground floor up, they simply go with whatever their little mates go. This often leads to enormous gaps between the professed ideology and the actual positions advocated, such as when so-called "liberals" line up to defend Islamism.

Precious few people actually analyze their political positions. Most simply say what they are expected to say and conform to the positions that generate approval from their peers.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up) Guarantee Fail, 100% of the time. Every nation has an economic bottom, how come they're still poor?

Conservative economic policies (trickle-down) Trickle down is a divisive Liberal misnomer to malign a policy of allowing people to make their own decision and keep more of their money. It's worked every time it's been tried. You're probably already bored and will stop reading after this.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc. Need MSA accounts couple with a free market insurance program where individual can custom tailor a policy for their unique needs. Need to get the government out of the insurance and health care rationing business

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take? It will take until we get rid of politicians who feel entitled to our money -- that's both D's and R's

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment? See above

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance. yeah, what about em?

 

[Statistikhengst]

Rubrik I: Financial​

Liberal economic policies (bottom up) Guarantee Fail, 100% of the time. Every nation has an economic bottom, how come they're still poor?

Conservative economic policies (trickle-down) Trickle down is a divisive Liberal misnomer to malign a policy of allowing people to make their own decision and keep more of their money. It's worked every time it's been tried. You're probably already bored and will stop reading after this.

Healthcare: Obamacare, pure-single-payer, undoing Obamacare, complete private-health care, etc. Need MSA accounts couple with a free market insurance program where individual can custom tailor a policy for their unique needs. Need to get the government out of the insurance and health care rationing business

Debt reduction. How to reduce, how long it should take? It will take until we get rid of politicians who feel entitled to our money -- that's both D's and R's

Budget/Deficit: balanced budget amendment? See above

Trade agreements, like NAFTA from the past, the pacific pact from today, also the large trade agreement with India, for instance. yeah, what about em?

Excellent start. Good for you.