Is it ok for a church to knowingly break one of the 10 Commandments?

[Dr.Drock]

Mark 10:9-12 NIV - Therefore what God has joined together, - Bible Gateway

Mark 10:9-12
New International Version (NIV)

9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Exodus 20:14 NIV - You shall not - Bible Gateway

Exodus 20:14
New International Version (NIV)


14 “You shall not commit adultery.





The first quote is from Jesus in the New Testament, so there's no getting around it, no gray area, no need for interpretation.

Are you ok with a church performing someone's 2nd+ marriage, that wasn't to his/her original wife/husband?

Technically, it's not the church breaking the commandment, but the person getting a second marriage. Some churches will not preform a second marriage without a legal annulment, and some won't do it at all.

But the many MANY churches who willingly provide these 2nd marriages, should christians take issue with that?

 

[Sky Dancer]

My perspective is I think divorce is immoral if you have kids together, but I don't think remarriage is immoral.

Staying in an abusive marriage when you have kids is immoral.

True, but that's the exception.

Tell that to the battered women's shelters and the Child Protective Service workers.

 

[BDBoop]

I would like to see some divorce statistics. I don't actually know the specifics.

 

[Lokiate]

To be blunt, my point is too bad. If it's better for your kids to have you both around, you have to put with it.

I have to strongly disagree. If the relationship is gone beyond the point of reconciliation, all sticking around is going to do is create a very hostile environment that, imo, is worst for the children, than if the parents split, and share custody.

 

[BDBoop]

Interesting article; good thread.

THE LIZ LIBRARY TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

[del]

Agree to disagree.

What I've seen is the case in most marriages with kids, is the burden of difficult marriage is shifted from parents to children through divorce.

Okay. I mean - I used to see things as you do. But the older you get, the more people you talk to (who have worn those shoes - or not) ... I mean, my mother hated my dad right up until the dementia ate away the hate. Living in an armed camp? Oh, THAT was fun to grow up in.

And these days? You don't get a say in the matter. Fine - refuse to sign the divorce papers. The court will grant it, anyway. Ask to go to counseling. Your spouse will likely say no. Too much has happened. There's no going back.

I hate divorce as much as the next person, but if you see your partner in love with someone else, and you still want to hang in there? I dunno. That seems pretty masochistic.

To be blunt, my point is too bad. If it's better for your kids to have you both around, you have to put with it.

That's why it's a good thing seeing this current generation not as quick to jump to marriage in their early 20's. So many of the current young generation have grown up in broken homes thanks to the older generation not taking divorce and marriage seriously enough.

you can be a part of your children's lives without living with them or your spouse. i don't think you're doing your kids any favors by providing a daily example of living in misery with a person you don't care for any more.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Consider the commandment to honor your mother and father. How does that work when a child is emotionally, sexually and physically abused by a parent?

How does that affect a child's relationship to God?

 

[Dr.Drock]

Staying in an abusive marriage when you have kids is immoral.

True, but that's the exception.

Tell that to the battered women's shelters and the Child Protective Service workers.

So in your opinion, the majority of divorces end because of spousal or child abuse?



My life experience seeing divorce happen with pretty much 2/3 of married couples I've known has shown that not to be the case. If you have stats to back that up, please provide them.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Okay. I mean - I used to see things as you do. But the older you get, the more people you talk to (who have worn those shoes - or not) ... I mean, my mother hated my dad right up until the dementia ate away the hate. Living in an armed camp? Oh, THAT was fun to grow up in.

And these days? You don't get a say in the matter. Fine - refuse to sign the divorce papers. The court will grant it, anyway. Ask to go to counseling. Your spouse will likely say no. Too much has happened. There's no going back.

I hate divorce as much as the next person, but if you see your partner in love with someone else, and you still want to hang in there? I dunno. That seems pretty masochistic.

To be blunt, my point is too bad. If it's better for your kids to have you both around, you have to put with it.

That's why it's a good thing seeing this current generation not as quick to jump to marriage in their early 20's. So many of the current young generation have grown up in broken homes thanks to the older generation not taking divorce and marriage seriously enough.

you can be a part of your children's lives without living with them or your spouse. i don't think you're doing your kids any favors by providing a daily example of living in misery with a person you don't care for any more.

Part of their life yes, but a smaller part than if you were around them every day.

 

[BDBoop]

True, but that's the exception.

Tell that to the battered women's shelters and the Child Protective Service workers.

So in your opinion, the majority of divorces end because of spousal or child abuse?



My life experience seeing divorce happen with pretty much 2/3 of married couples I've known has shown that not to be the case. If you have stats to back that up, please provide them.

I don't know the statistics (and yeah. I'm not Sky). But what you see of a marriage is just a mirage, most of the time, at least when things are bad.

 

[Lokiate]

Mark 10:9-12 NIV - Therefore what God has joined together, - Bible Gateway

Mark 10:9-12
New International Version (NIV)

9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Exodus 20:14 NIV - You shall not - Bible Gateway

Exodus 20:14
New International Version (NIV)


14 “You shall not commit adultery.





The first quote is from Jesus in the New Testament, so there's no getting around it, no gray area, no need for interpretation.

Are you ok with a church performing someone's 2nd+ marriage, that wasn't to his/her original wife/husband?

Technically, it's not the church breaking the commandment, but the person getting a second marriage. Some churches will not preform a second marriage without a legal annulment, and some won't do it at all.

But the many MANY churches who willingly provide these 2nd marriages, should christians take issue with that?

That's a question I cannot answer, because I haven't done the biblical law thing in a very long time, but I will point out that Jesus himself broke the 4th Commandment, then declared to the Pharisees "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". (Mark 2:23-28)

The New Testament creates a huge cluster fuck, if one takes into account the laws of the Old Testament. Despite the Nazarene claiming he came not to change the law, he made a great deal of changes.

 

[Sky Dancer]

True, but that's the exception.

Tell that to the battered women's shelters and the Child Protective Service workers.

So in your opinion, the majority of divorces end because of spousal or child abuse?



My life experience seeing divorce happen with pretty much 2/3 of married couples I've known has shown that not to be the case. If you have stats to back that up, please provide them.

I certainly do not have to provide stats for something I didn't say. You are trying to put words in my mouth. My point is that battered women shelters and Child Protective Services in my community report biblical justification for abuse.

I don't have the stats, this has come out of trainings I've attended.

Your claim is that it is an exceptional occurrence when religion is used to justify abuse and I'm saying that it may occurr more frequently than you realize. Clergy don't report crimes they hear about in confession.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Tell that to the battered women's shelters and the Child Protective Service workers.

So in your opinion, the majority of divorces end because of spousal or child abuse?



My life experience seeing divorce happen with pretty much 2/3 of married couples I've known has shown that not to be the case. If you have stats to back that up, please provide them.

I certainly do not have to provide stats for something I didn't say. You are trying to put words in my mouth. My point is that battered women shelters and Child Protective Services in my community report biblical justification for abuse.

I don't have the stats, this has come out of trainings I've attended.

Your claim is that it is an exceptional occurrence when religion is used to justify abuse and I'm saying that it may occurr more frequently than you realize. Clergy don't report crimes they hear about in confession.

I haven't said a single word about using religion to justify abuse.

We're getting WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY off topic here.

I already knew everyone disagrees with me about divorce and morality of it, what i'm hearing is nothing new. It's an opinion I respect, but not one I share.


The point of the thread is do christians take issue with many churches willingly breaking one of the 10 commandments through remarriage.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Saddleback Pastor: Domestic Abuse Not Reason for Divorce, Christian News

 

[Sky Dancer]

What I teach is that there are no Biblical grounds for divorce. This is not to say that a wife should not leave an abusive husband; but rather, she should not divorce him.

1st Corinthians 7:17 states:

1st Corinthians 7:10, "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."

So, Biblically, if a wife does depart (not divorce), she is to REMAIN UNMARRIED. Matthew 5:32b teaches that it is adultery for a divorced woman to remarry.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/divorce_not_ok.htm

 

[BDBoop]

This is what the end sounds like.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUvPS0czxvo]Sara Watkins "Where Will You Be" - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Lokiate]

What I teach is that there are no Biblical grounds for divorce. This is not to say that a wife should not leave an abusive husband; but rather, she should not divorce him.

Which was the societal standard of the time for the Judaic people. They treated women like shit, because they were basically bond-servants to be traded and sold from the day they were born. For example, Deuteronomy 22:13-21

13"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her 14and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, 'I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,' 15then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. 16And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; 17and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, "I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity." And yet this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. 18Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him, 19and they shall fine him a hundred shekels[c] of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin[d] of Israel. And she shall be his wife. He may not divorce her all his days. 20But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, 21then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

"Evidence of virginity" being vaginal blood. On a Hebrew womans wedding night, a white cloth was placed under her, so when the marriage was consummated, the virgin would bleed on the white cloth, thus being used as evidence of sexual purity. However, a hymen can break without sexual intercourse, making the punishment of death pretty fucking harsh, and unjust. Especially considering that the guy just gets whipped, has to pay a fine, and she ends up having to marry the fucker anyway. Judaic law is, by far, some of the most fucked up shit I've ever read.

 

[JStone]

What I teach is that there are no Biblical grounds for divorce. This is not to say that a wife should not leave an abusive husband; but rather, she should not divorce him.

Which was the societal standard of the time for the Judaic people. They treated women like shit, because they were basically bond-servants to be traded and sold from the day they were born. For example, Deuteronomy 22:13-21

10 Commandments: Honor Thy Father And Mother.

Leviticus: 'Each of you must respect his mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the LORD your God.

 

[JStone]

"Evidence of virginity" being vaginal blood. On a Hebrew womans wedding night, a white cloth was placed under her, so when the marriage was consummated, the virgin would bleed on the white cloth, thus being used as evidence of sexual purity. However, a hymen can break without sexual intercourse, making the punishment of death pretty fucking harsh, and unjust. Especially considering that the guy just gets whipped, has to pay a fine, and she ends up having to marry the fucker anyway. Judaic law is, by far, some of the most fucked up shit I've ever read.

You forgot to take the anti-psychotic medication?

 

[Lokiate]

Did you never read the Old Testament?