Is it immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

[NYcarbineer]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

This may be the closest you've came to posting a logical statement; so, congrats. Still, a swing and a miss though.

Well then you tell us, what percentage of the followers of a religion have to be peaceful in order for 'religion of peace' to be a fair description of it.

You've rejected 99%. Tell us how far above 99% Islam has to go to qualify.

I was going to ask you the same question. What percent of followers have to be terrorists? I'd say it's foolhearty to put a number on it. But if you're trying to celebrate only 1 in 100 members of a religion being terrorists, then I'd say you have a low bar for what you consider acceptable.

I said 99%+.

There are 2 billion Muslims. How many are terrorists?

 

[JoeB131]

WWII was far from a religion based war. Your count is phony.

Really?

 

[JoeB131]

I don't get what your Bin Laden nonsense is about. How about you tell me what Bin Laden was when he fought the Russians and when he fought the Americans? To me, he was pure evil in the end.

I'll tell you exactly what he was. He was a guerrilla fighter who was opposed to westernization. And we were foolish enough to arm him.

I think you're arguing something I had thought I had conceded. I believe the Hebrews did live a quite strict law that would be considered inhumane by today's standards. Of course, remember that they were literally tribal. I think it was a bit of a different ball game. I don't see prominent Jews calling for the re-institution of those laws.

No, those laws are barbaric by ANY standards. And there really wasn't a good reason for them. Israel was never a great civilization. In fact, if it weren't for it being adopted as the backstory for Christianity, we'd probably never know it existed at all.

Furthermore, I think that your cherry picking a few existing scriptures that only seemed applicable to a small subset of people for a time that has long since passed. When you read the Bible vs. the quran, as I have done, the tone is quite different. The quran has one prominent and repeating message: JOIN US OR DIE. To even pretend that the Bible is along those lines shows your lack of intellectual honesty.

Guy, you read the Koran, but your reading of it would be about as objective as my reading the Book of Mormon.

You went into it believing the Muslims were terribly people, looking for confirmation bias.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

This may be the closest you've came to posting a logical statement; so, congrats. Still, a swing and a miss though.

Well then you tell us, what percentage of the followers of a religion have to be peaceful in order for 'religion of peace' to be a fair description of it.

You've rejected 99%. Tell us how far above 99% Islam has to go to qualify.

I was going to ask you the same question. What percent of followers have to be terrorists? I'd say it's foolhearty to put a number on it. But if you're trying to celebrate only 1 in 100 members of a religion being terrorists, then I'd say you have a low bar for what you consider acceptable.

I said 99%+.

There are 2 billion Muslims. How many are terrorists?

Let's go with different more relevant percentages; what percent of terrorists are Muslim? What percent of religionist terrorists are Muslim?

GAME, SET, MATCH.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

WWII was far from a religion based war. Your count is phony.

Really?

Congrats, you found an obscure artwork that probably isn't even from WWII. WWII was not a war for religious supremacy. For you to pretend so is a stretch even for you.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I don't get what your Bin Laden nonsense is about. How about you tell me what Bin Laden was when he fought the Russians and when he fought the Americans? To me, he was pure evil in the end.

I'll tell you exactly what he was. He was a guerrilla fighter who was opposed to westernization. And we were foolish enough to arm him.

I think you're arguing something I had thought I had conceded. I believe the Hebrews did live a quite strict law that would be considered inhumane by today's standards. Of course, remember that they were literally tribal. I think it was a bit of a different ball game. I don't see prominent Jews calling for the re-institution of those laws.

No, those laws are barbaric by ANY standards. And there really wasn't a good reason for them. Israel was never a great civilization. In fact, if it weren't for it being adopted as the backstory for Christianity, we'd probably never know it existed at all.

Furthermore, I think that your cherry picking a few existing scriptures that only seemed applicable to a small subset of people for a time that has long since passed. When you read the Bible vs. the quran, as I have done, the tone is quite different. The quran has one prominent and repeating message: JOIN US OR DIE. To even pretend that the Bible is along those lines shows your lack of intellectual honesty.

Guy, you read the Koran, but your reading of it would be about as objective as my reading the Book of Mormon.

You went into it believing the Muslims were terribly people, looking for confirmation bias.

So, Osama was a terrorist all along? And he was a terrorist why now?

________________________________________

I don't need a confirmation about the quran. I've read it. I know that it's the brown person's Mein Kampf. Your only proving your biases....

 

[Esmeralda]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

Islam is not a great evil. Terrorists are a great evil. Ignorance an even greater evil.

The terrorists are living their religion to the fullest. Many other Muslims feel they have to support them out of sheer guilt and fear of going to hell for not doing so. Don't tell me it's not evil. Read the book and find out for yourself.

You are so completely, ignorantly wrong. It isn't even worth explaining it to you: people like you prefer to be ignorant because it feeds their biased, bigoted, hate filled agenda.

And BTW, why do you name yourself after a liberal? F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote The Great Gatsby (I'll bet you've only seen the recent movie, which is not very good and doesn't follow the novel very well.). Fitzgerald was a liberal. And the character of Gatsby is not one to be admired but to be pitied.

 

[buddhallah_the_christ]

I think it is immoral to vote for politicians like John McCain who are willing to bomb all that they do not like. It seems to me that McCain instead of fly swatter uses Colt. at least

 

[EatMorChikin]

The OP makes a good, solid argument. I am actually very glad that TheGreatGatsby brought this up. Don't faint, Gatsby, sometimes we agree on stuff and you don't even know it.

The real "crux" (let's see who gets that one...) of this issue is how the word "Salaam" (usually translated from Arabic to English to mean "peace") is actually defined in Islam. I believe that many westerners assume quite erroneously that the word "peace" has the same meaning across the world. And that the word has no strings attached to it.

But in the Kuran, Salaam also means to 'subject one-self to Allah' - according to the dictates of Islam, of course, since Islam claims to be the one truth faith and all others are therefore false. In fact, a second dictionary definiton of "Salaam", even published in the western world is:

a very low bow or obeisance, especially with the palm of the right hand placed on the forehead.

So, sure, the word means "peace", but with strings attached. It means "peace" as long as one subjugates himself to "Allah" - of course, according to the dictates of Islam. Not very peaceful, if you are a non-muslim, perhaps...

It should also be noted that the word Salaam (Salaami) can also mean safety or security from blemishes or defects, because one of the descriptors for G-d in Arabic is "As-Salaam" , which means: ‘May you not be void of goodness and blessing, and may you be safe from detestable and harmful things.' Notice that the word "peace" is no where in there. Of course, some could say that that definition fullfills exactly their personal definition of peace.

Here an islamic source to back that up:

The Meaning of Salaat and Salaam on the Prophet Shaikh 8216 Abdul-Muhsin Hamad Al- 8216 Abbaad

So, the word "Salaam" can mean a lot of things. Just as the Arabic word for "innocents" (برئ ) - "vuriah" - has a number of meanings and also comes with strings attached. And yes, I mean "innocents" ("innocent", plural) and not "innocence".

Here is a book about this topic, from the Christian perspective, I believe:

WORLD Is Islam a religion of peace Darrow Miller Oct. 25 2014

So, no, I don't think it's immoral to vote for a politician who goes around saying that Islam is a religion of Peace, because he is either ignorant and has no idea of the different meanings of the actual word for "peace", of he knows EXACTLY what it means and is trying to get a point across.

It's how we respond as a unified, freedom-loving people to Islamic terrorism that counts much more to me than the words, probably the campaign trail words, of a politician.

-Stat

Okay, I thanked your post for the perspective. But I'll say I'm always weary of academic this is what the word meant centuries ago type stuff. All too often, context gets to stripped. I've seen academia make false claims about Bible meanings with regularity for instance. Granted, I do believe that what you say may true.

However, you're trying to apply their meaning of peace with our meaning of peace; and that's where your logic falls apart. Our politicians aren't calling Islam a religion of peace based upon technical caveats. They are making a case that the religion itself is not a problem and even a great value; and that is clearly false.

Actually, it has as much to do with the present as the past. Words have meaning and not understanding their meaning can lead to catastrophe.

Islam claims that "Salaam" means "peace" - only, it defines very differently than westerners would.

And the two definitions are not reconcilable in any culture that values democracy.

"Peace" with a knive around your neck is not "peace".

I said that our politicians who say it either say it out of ignorance or perhaps because they know EXACTLY what the deal is. There are some, prolly, who say it just to be PC. And that is a shame.

I think you and I agree more on this than you realize.

And that dishonesty has a reverse effect I believe. It empowers them, like a child is empowered by getting their way. Muslims think they have you whipped, they will take more and more.

 

[EatMorChikin]

I think it's immoral to vote for a politician without knowing what their policies are, which is why the Republicans got a majority this time around.

We still have yet to hear what the Republican policies are regarding how this country is going to be run.

No you are wrong by a mile! (Rs) won because of the liar in chiefs policies. No way did this country want 2 years of this lameduck runaway train going to hell.

 

[EatMorChikin]

Well, if you did go to church, you'd realize that the Bible is more of a Murder Manual than the Koran is.

You should probably give the koran a read sometime.

 

[EatMorChikin]

Another dopey race-baiting thread.

Go away bigot.

What race is islam?

And I have asked you this before, never a response.

Isn't supporting islam and homosexuality akin to eating your own young?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

Islam is not a great evil. Terrorists are a great evil. Ignorance an even greater evil.

The terrorists are living their religion to the fullest. Many other Muslims feel they have to support them out of sheer guilt and fear of going to hell for not doing so. Don't tell me it's not evil. Read the book and find out for yourself.

You are so completely, ignorantly wrong. It isn't even worth explaining it to you: people like you prefer to be ignorant because it feeds their biased, bigoted, hate filled agenda.

And BTW, why do you name yourself after a liberal? F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote The Great Gatsby (I'll bet you've only seen the recent movie, which is not very good and doesn't follow the novel very well.). Fitzgerald was a liberal. And the character of Gatsby is not one to be admired but to be pitied.

You mean that you can't explain the scourge that Islam in glowing terms because that would be a farce. You're the one with the agenda. You think you're helping out the poor trodden down brown man. But when the murderers come to your door or your descendents door, you or they will be singing a different tune.

____________________________________________________

And fine...I'll indulge your off-topic inquiries:

• I know all about F Scott Fitzgerald. I know that he was named after none other than the direct descendant F Scott Key, who was quite patriotic and against the gross taxation and lack of liberties. And furthermore, he was born into riches. I dare would say his political roots are quite conservative. Fitzgerald himself worked for big Hollywood later in life and he utterly resented their politics...Hmmm, conservative maybe?
  
• Actually, I'm sort of talking tongue and cheek about FSF. I don't think he was very political at all. In truth, he was apolitical and quite the romanticist. He was an independent spirit, which is frankly more of what I can relate to than your us vs. them contrived right vs. left nonsense.
• I have not seen the recent movie. I was going to; but the person with whom I was going to see it, I lost contact with her. I've read the book on many occasions; and I own four or five copies. I've also seen the Robert Redford version and found it to be pretty good; though I didn't like it at first. I'll go book snob on ya and just say it didn't live up to the book. Over the years, I've come to like it much more all the same. At last check, you can find the movie on youtube.
• I find it funny how you love to claim that Fitzgerald was a liberal. Cos in your peabrain, anyone who's anyone who is creative is surely liberal. And thus, you didn't feel compelled to give one supporting example to support your bold claim.
• This article JSTOR An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie would support my initial thought; I quote, "Fitzgerald experienced a disenchantment with politics that extended from his boyhood until the early 1930's." F Scott wrote most of his well known works in that time period, including The Great Gatsby (1925).
• Of course, anyone that knows F Scott knows that excess and romanticism were both his greatness and ultimate undoing (He died of a heart attack, a poor man at age 43). As a liberal with a disassociation from reality and justification for waste, maybe you relate.....after all, I quote, "F. Scott Fitzgerald and his wife, Zelda, were guilty of many things. They were impetuous, they were known to drink too much, and they were prone to bouts of serious depression and self-destructive behavior, but no one could ever accuse them of frugality." Source: F. Scott Fitzgerald and the Age of Excess The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History
• By the way, what did The Great Gatsby romanticize socially? Wall Street. Hardly a liberal convention. Though again, F Scott was ultimately apolitical, and he had no problem basically portraying a conservative like Tom Buchanon in a bad light and the main character Nick Carraway, who also had conservative characteristics, in a good light.
• During The Great Gatsby Period: "The United States had entered World War I a debtor nation and emerged as Europe’s largest creditor, to the tune of $12.5 billion." Hmmm....seems that FSF found some value in such conservative principles as he gloried in that society. F. Scott Fitzgerald and the Age of Excess The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History
• I don't know how well you know FSF. But he was basically at his best when writing veiled autobiographical accounts. Some would argue that he could write nothing of worth otherwise. As he was from the Midwest (Minnesota), he ends The Great Gatsby celebrating a simpler (arguably more conservative) life: "Fitzgerald was a perfect chronicler of his time. He was both an avid participant in, and a stringent critic of, the culture of prosperity that marked the 1920s. In Gatsby, his alter ego, Nick Caraway, recalls wistfully the America of his youth. In Nick’s mind, the Middle West embodied a lost age—a simpler time before telephones and movie palaces and department stores. Setting out by train from Chicago, “when we pulled into our winter night and the real snow, our snow, began to stretch out beside us and twinkle against the windows, and the dim lights of small Wisconsin stations moved by, a sharp wild embrace came suddenly into the air.” This was “my Middle West,” he explains in the closing pages of the novel, “not the wheat or the prairies or the lost Swede towns, but the thrilling returning trains of my youth, and the street lamps and sleigh bells in the frosty dark and the shadows of holly wreaths thrown by lighted windows. I am part of that . . . I see now that this has been a story of the West, after all—Tom and Gatsby, Daisy and Jordan and I, were all Westerners, and perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadaptable to Eastern life.” F. Scott Fitzgerald and the Age of Excess The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History
• Of course, there is a contention out there that Fitzgerald went further left in 1934. This contention is based upon obscure associations. The truth is that Fitzgerald was a writer first; and most likely, he kept such associations as he searched for interesting characters regardless of persuasions. FSF never otherwise entered into some sort of political arena.
  
• FSF is said to have become more against plutocracy as he became older. This means that he was against a wealth based social stratosphere. There are aspects of his lifestyle that would support this. But the reality is that he lost his wealth based upon drunkeness ("First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you.") and self apathy. He was by no means trying to be a martyr for the cause.
  
• FSF, the romantic plutocrat that he is would find someone like an Barry Obama or a Rupy Murdoch and expose them for the villains they are regardless of this left/right crap.
• What might FSF do with your hero Clintons? Well, "Show me a hero, and I'll write the tragedy." He might give you a dose of reality is what.
• And though some see Tom Buchanan as a neanderthal (conservative) cariacture, there is proof that FSF may have related to his so-called racism. HERE'S A LITTLE SOMETHING FOR YOU: FSF - "I believe at last in the white man's burden. We are as far above the modern Frenchman as he is above the Negro. Even in art!" And so on." race history evolution notes The racial worldview of F. Scott Fitzgerald
  
• Perhaps, you saw the (TGG) character Wolfsheim, who was arguably borne of anti-semiticism, and you thought well surely FSF was liberal?
  
• Or did you think that Fitzgerald was liberal because he was not high on negroes like Woodrow Wilson. After all, FSF once referred to African equality and negro rights as "jibberish." race history evolution notes The racial worldview of F. Scott Fitzgerald
  
• Again, FSF was much like an apolitical patriotic plutocrat who has racial worries as a 1937 letter like this to his daughter at boarding school will show: "I will bet two-thirds of the girls at Miss Walker’s School have at least one grandparent that peddled old leather in the slums of New York, Chicago, or London, and if I thought you were accepting the standards of the cosmopolitan rich, I would much rather have you in a Southern school, where scholastic standards are not so high and the word “nice” is not debased to such a ludicrous extent. I have seen the whole racket, and if there is any more disastrous road than that from Park Avenue to the Rue de la Paix and back again, I don’t know it.
  
  They are homeless people, ashamed of being American, unable to master the culture of another country; ashamed, usually, of their husbands, wives, grandparents, and unable to bring up descendants of whom they could be proud, even if they had the nerve to bear them, ashamed of each other yet leaning on each other’s weakness, a menace to the social order in which they live—oh, why should I go on? You know how I feel about such things. If I come up and find you gone Park Avenue, you will have to explain me away as a Georgia cracker or a Chicago killer. God help Park Avenue." race history evolution notes The racial worldview of F. Scott Fitzgerald
  
• In this 1940 letter, FSF explains his basic annoyance with conservative and liberal fanatics: "I think it was you who misunderstood my meaning about the comrades. The important thing is this: they had best be treated, not as people holding a certain set of liberal or conservative opinions, but rather as you might treat a set of intensely fanatical Roman Catholics among whom you might find yourself. It is not that you should not disagree with them—the important thing is that you should not argue with them. The point is that Communism has become an intensely dogmatic and almost mystical religion, and whatever you say, they have ways of twisting it into shapes which put you in some lower category of mankind (“Fascist,” “Liberal,” “Trotskyist”), and disparage you both intellectually and personally in the process. They are amazingly well organized. The pith of my advice is: think what you want, the less said the better..." race history evolution notes The racial worldview of F. Scott Fitzgerald

In the words of Marshal Erickson, LAWYERED!

 

[Esmeralda]

If you read and understood any of his work, you would realize he was a liberal. You don't have to be terribly political, or political at all, to be a liberal. He lived his life as a liberal. His books and stories (apparently you've only read one of his books--and not understood it) reflect a completely different viewpoint than that of conservatives. You have very deeply misunderstood the novel The Great Gatsby, and you have either also not understood his other work or have not read it. The fact he did not like extremists of either ilk does not mean he was a conservative. You are for some unfathomable reason reading his work to suit your own bias. And, btw, the very last thing romanticized in Gatsby was Wall Street. That's a crucial point in the book. Nick, the narrator, works on Wall Street, and he hardly romanticizes it.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Not only immoral, but insane to do so.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

If you read and understood any of his work, you would realize he was a liberal. You don't have to be terribly political, or political at all, to be a liberal. He lived his life as a liberal. His books and stories (apparently you've only read one of his books--and not understood it) reflect a completely different viewpoint than that of conservatives. You have very deeply misunderstood the novel The Great Gatsby, and you have either also not understood his other work or have not read it.

Nice blanket counter. Yea, I think you pretend that FSF is ever so liberal to suit your borish conventions. If FSF were here, he'd say to you that you are "intensely dogmatic" and note that you have created a "mystical religion" for yourself. And he would reject your mundane labels. He rises above such sad nomenclature.

And TGG is a nuansced reflection upon culture. It is not the liberal handbook that you want to pretend that it is; it is far from it.

 

[Esmeralda]

If you read and understood any of his work, you would realize he was a liberal. You don't have to be terribly political, or political at all, to be a liberal. He lived his life as a liberal. His books and stories (apparently you've only read one of his books--and not understood it) reflect a completely different viewpoint than that of conservatives. You have very deeply misunderstood the novel The Great Gatsby, and you have either also not understood his other work or have not read it.

Nice blanket counter. Yea, I think you pretend that FSF is ever so liberal to suit your conventions.If FSF were here, he'd say to you that you are "intensely dogmatic" and note that you have created a "mystical religion" for yourself. And he would reject your mundane labels. He rises above such sad nomenclature.

LMAO Oh, he would? You're going to put words in his mouth now? Overall, you are not familiar, obviously, with the bulk of his work and have misread Gatsby. I'm done here. This is too tiresome.

 

[hipeter924]

If you invest in a weapons manufacturer does that make you 'immorial'? How about profiting from companies that use sweat jobs to make their products, or buying those products? Takes more than someone's viewpoint or indirect associations to make someone 'immoral'.

 

[hipeter924]

If you invest in a weapons manufacturer does that make you 'immorial'? How about profiting from companies that use sweat jobs to make their products, or buying those products? Takes more than someone's viewpoint or indirect associations to make someone 'immoral'.

Edit: Sweat shops.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Is it immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?"

It's idiocy to not vote for a politician solely because he calls Islam a religion on peace.

Just as it's idiocy to judge an entire religion by the actions of a tiny minority.