Is it immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

[JoeB131]

The Biblical Israelites lived by 'the lesser law.' I don't have a problem with you not believing in it, or thinking that it was not justified when it was in effect. But you're pretending that these old customs and laws (which you take out of context for the sake of your own bigotry) have any bearing on matters of today. Meanwhile, the quran is quite clear that the infidels must die and millions are taking it to heart.

The only reason why it has 'no bearing' today is because we are a lot more civilized.

They aren't being "taken out of Context". These are the violent malicious laws the Hebrews lived by. And, yes, this was the basis of laws all the way up until "The Enlightenment". Not that you all are very enlightened in JesusLand.

 

[hazlnut]

This thread and the OP are immoral.

The amount of ignorance that comes running when you blow the racist dog whistle on USMB is staggering.

You fuckin' people are sick.

 

[Esmeralda]

Typically a voter will not agree with everything said by every politician that the voter votes for.

Tis true. But the question remains, is this issue so fundamental that voting for a terrorist ideology sympathizer to be rather egregious?

Let me put it this way; say you agreed with everything a candidate said, except he advocated robbing people at gunpoint. Would that one single issue make it immoral for you to vote for him? Perhaps, this question is on that level_ or otherwise approaches it.

Only one or two countries around the world operate under full Sharia law, and those are small countries in the ME. The vast majority of Islamic countries do not operate under full Sharia law. Look it up; educate yourself. Terrorists do not represent Islam; their religious ideas are the twisted ideas of the mentally deranged. Islam is not a terrorist ideology; terrorists make up their own ideology and say it is based in Islam, but they are twisting it to meet their own violent and deranged objectives.

 

[Esmeralda]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

Islam is not a great evil. Terrorists are a great evil. Ignorance an even greater evil.

 

[JFK_USA]

There are plenty of passages in the bible that stoning is okay and that if a man rapes a young girl, he must pay the father money and then force the girl to marry him.

Not one in the King James Bible. Prove me wrong. You won't.

Guy, you are making this too easy.

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

What the Bible says about stoning




For touching Mount Sinai


Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13


For taking "accursed things"


Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26


For cursing or blaspheming


And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16


For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)


If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24


For animals (like an ox that gores a human)


If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28


For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night


If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21


For worshipping other gods


If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5


If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10


For disobeying parents


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


For witches and wizards


A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27


For giving your children to Molech


Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2


For breaking the Sabbath


They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56


For cursing the king


Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

The Biblical Israelites lived by 'the lesser law.' I don't have a problem with you not believing in it, or thinking that it was not justified when it was in effect. But you're pretending that these old customs and laws (which you take out of context for the sake of your own bigotry) have any bearing on matters of today. Meanwhile, the quran is quite clear that the infidels must die and millions are taking it to heart.

So even though both books mention horrible acts to do to human beings, one book is all good and one book is all bad? There are messages of love and peace in the Koran as well but you refuse to believe it because they are the "enemy" while actively being ignorant about the violence promoted in your religion.

 

[Katzndogz]

The difference is in the Bible Jesus came along. In the Koran Jesus was a prophet that blasphemed by claiming to be the Son of God.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

This may be the closest you've came to posting a logical statement; so, congrats. Still, a swing and a miss though.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

It's immoral to claim a political candidate is more moral than their opposition and isn't just saying whatever gets them elected.

That's called moral equivalency; and it's not even any sort of semi-rational kind of it.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

The Bible is a book of peace and the quran is a book of war; a comparison would easily validate that reality.

"Christians" have killed a lot more people than Muslims have. Between the world wars and the genocides of native people in America and Australia, we done killed us a whole bunch for Jay-a-zus.

Nobody with a modicum of intelligence believes that muslims actions are justified by so-called western injustices. I am Ron Paulian in that I agree that we should get the fuck out of there. But if we left, they'd still be left with their bile caveman culture.

again, guy, when Bin Laden was killing Russians, he was a freedom fighter. When he was killing Americans, he was a terrorist. You give a crazy person a gun, you shouldn't be surprised when he turns it on you.

WWII was far from a religion based war. Your count is phony.

I don't get what your Bin Laden nonsense is about. How about you tell me what Bin Laden was when he fought the Russians and when he fought the Americans? To me, he was pure evil in the end.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

The Biblical Israelites lived by 'the lesser law.' I don't have a problem with you not believing in it, or thinking that it was not justified when it was in effect. But you're pretending that these old customs and laws (which you take out of context for the sake of your own bigotry) have any bearing on matters of today. Meanwhile, the quran is quite clear that the infidels must die and millions are taking it to heart.

The only reason why it has 'no bearing' today is because we are a lot more civilized.

They aren't being "taken out of Context". These are the violent malicious laws the Hebrews lived by. And, yes, this was the basis of laws all the way up until "The Enlightenment". Not that you all are very enlightened in JesusLand.

I think you're arguing something I had thought I had conceded. I believe the Hebrews did live a quite strict law that would be considered inhumane by today's standards. Of course, remember that they were literally tribal. I think it was a bit of a different ball game. I don't see prominent Jews calling for the re-institution of those laws.

Furthermore, I think that your cherry picking a few existing scriptures that only seemed applicable to a small subset of people for a time that has long since passed. When you read the Bible vs. the quran, as I have done, the tone is quite different. The quran has one prominent and repeating message: JOIN US OR DIE. To even pretend that the Bible is along those lines shows your lack of intellectual honesty.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

This thread inspired by the insight of former GBII adviser Elliot Abrams and the audacious rhetoric of Mr. Mohamad Mukadam.

Abrams states:

What is authentic Islam? Is ISIS an authentic form of Islam, or is it not? I think it's very important that the United States government shut-up about that question...

It used to annoy me enormously when President [George W.] Bush, for whom I was working, would say, 'Islam is a religion of peace...

For American government officials to be telling Muslims, 'I know real Islam' ... is ridiculous. It would be an outrage about Judaism and Christianity as well. ... For government officials who are 99 percent Christians to be trying to find what is authentic in Islam seems to me to be a fool's errand...

The average American thinks this (that Islam is a religion of peace) is crap...

The only people doing the beheadings are Muslims, so don't tell me it's all wonderful...

Is there something in Islam that has led some Muslims to behave in a way we consider to be terrible? And what's the debate within Islam?... That's a real description of a real problem... saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' isn't [realistic].

When asked about if Muslims kill apostates, this was Mr. Mohamad Mukadam's response:

"If it's an Islamic country, the Sharia is very clear. Apostasy is dealt with the death penalty."

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Source: Should Presidents Call Islam a Religion of Peace Two George W. Bush Officials Debate

Source: Mr. Mohamad Mukadam gives his take on death to apostates.

And for the sake of further clarity, George W Bush and Obama have both called Islam a religion of peace; and neither of them have reversed their positions on the matter.

Islam is not a great evil. Terrorists are a great evil. Ignorance an even greater evil.

The terrorists are living their religion to the fullest. Many other Muslims feel they have to support them out of sheer guilt and fear of going to hell for not doing so. Don't tell me it's not evil. Read the book and find out for yourself.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

There are plenty of passages in the bible that stoning is okay and that if a man rapes a young girl, he must pay the father money and then force the girl to marry him.

Not one in the King James Bible. Prove me wrong. You won't.

Guy, you are making this too easy.

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

What the Bible says about stoning




For touching Mount Sinai


Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13


For taking "accursed things"


Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26


For cursing or blaspheming


And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16


For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)


If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24


For animals (like an ox that gores a human)


If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28


For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night


If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21


For worshipping other gods


If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5


If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10


For disobeying parents


If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


For witches and wizards


A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27


For giving your children to Molech


Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2


For breaking the Sabbath


They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56


For cursing the king


Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

The Biblical Israelites lived by 'the lesser law.' I don't have a problem with you not believing in it, or thinking that it was not justified when it was in effect. But you're pretending that these old customs and laws (which you take out of context for the sake of your own bigotry) have any bearing on matters of today. Meanwhile, the quran is quite clear that the infidels must die and millions are taking it to heart.

So even though both books mention horrible acts to do to human beings, one book is all good and one book is all bad? There are messages of love and peace in the Koran as well but you refuse to believe it because they are the "enemy" while actively being ignorant about the violence promoted in your religion.

Theme, tone and context matter. You can cherrypick some Bible verses and pretend that the book is murderous hateful bile that is the quran if that's what you erroneously want to do.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

This may be the closest you've came to posting a logical statement; so, congrats. Still, a swing and a miss though.

Well then you tell us, what percentage of the followers of a religion have to be peaceful in order for 'religion of peace' to be a fair description of it.

You've rejected 99%. Tell us how far above 99% Islam has to go to qualify.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The difference is in the Bible Jesus came along. In the Koran Jesus was a prophet that blasphemed by claiming to be the Son of God.

Do Jews accept Jesus as the son of God?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

Peace, however, is more than just refraining from doing something, wouldn't you agree?

No.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Islam can't be called the religion of peace because only 99% of Muslims refrain from terrorism?

lol

This may be the closest you've came to posting a logical statement; so, congrats. Still, a swing and a miss though.

Well then you tell us, what percentage of the followers of a religion have to be peaceful in order for 'religion of peace' to be a fair description of it.

You've rejected 99%. Tell us how far above 99% Islam has to go to qualify.

I was going to ask you the same question. What percent of followers have to be terrorists? I'd say it's foolhearty to put a number on it. But if you're trying to celebrate only 1 in 100 members of a religion being terrorists, then I'd say you have a low bar for what you consider acceptable.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I think the most revealing thing about this poll is that conservatives haven't stepped up and said it's not okay for politicians to call Islam a religion of peace. They're on here all damn day railing against Islam; but yet, their politicians get a pass. This highlights to a T what is f'd up modern day conservatism and the GOP.

 

[Katzndogz]

The difference is in the Bible Jesus came along. In the Koran Jesus was a prophet that blasphemed by claiming to be the Son of God.

Do Jews accept Jesus as the son of God?

Do Hindus? Are either Jews or Hindus beheading infidels? How about Taoists, pagans, animists? Only muslims have a mandate to kill unbelievers.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Immoral? No.. but one has to call into question either the intellectual integrity of anyone who would say that.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Knowing that Islam is a great evil in this world, is it thusly immoral to vote for a politician who calls Islam a religion of peace?

Shouldn't you first prove that Islam is a great evil, there are almost 2 billion muslims on this planet after all?

Yes I know, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al quada etc. are evil jihadi psychopaths who want to take over the world and install sharia law everywhere but they're still a small minority of all muslim believers no matter what the fearmongering MSM tells you.

The burden of proof falls on those who say it isn't.

Please find us grassroots muslim groups denouncing radical Islam that regularly field 100+ protestors/activists on the sidewalk/highway or in front of a government building.