Is it immoral to have children knowing you can not provide them a decent life?

[blu]

If a person plans to have a child knowing that the kid(s) will not be provided a reasonable life (talking USA standards here) -- good education, not worrying about housing/food/clothes, access to opportunities to really exceed in life, etc, is that person making an immoral choice and should they be held accountable for it?

If I was unable to have a good paying job, and I knew that by having a kid I would be dooming that person to a life of struggle, pain, and a great likelihood of not accomplishing much (and probably turning criminal, etc), how could I say I really loved that child? What would I tell him when he or she is older and asks why I put them through such struggles?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes it is immoral to have children you can't afford.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think it's more immoral to pretend you are not having children for the child's sake and not so you can indulge in your own lifestyle.

 

[blu]

I think it's more immoral to pretend you are not having children for the child's sake and not so you can indulge in your own lifestyle.

these are two different things

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Having children born in poverty is certainly not immoral.
Having children born in poverty and you do nothing to help your situation and therefore look to improve your childs life is immoral.
When my wife and I married we didn't have much. We lived in a $12,000 4 room home. I was just beginning to get a career going and only made about $350 a week, my wife at the time barely made $300 a week. We had two children. We're we immoral? No. Because I worked my ass off to get better opportunities and I did.
However, if I never set out to improve my family's lot...lived off the government dole and was still broke - I wouldn't be worth the amount of work plants have to do to provide the oxygen I breathe.

 

[Leweman]

Well it's immoral to have sex then, knowing that you can't afford the children it may produce.

 

[Katzndogz]

What's immoral is having children and then demanding someone else support them. People have been having children they can't afford since people have been having children.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Methinks some people miss the point, or just don't grasp the perspective required by morality.

Having children is never, in and of itself, "immoral". And there is no particular standard of living that is "immoral" OR "moral" in and of itself.

It is immoral to be fucking around when you are not prepared or intending to take responsibility for the possible consequences. And it is immoral, once you have children, not to put them at the top of your priority list and do everything in your power to provide for at least their basic needs.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Methinks some people miss the point, or just don't grasp the perspective required by morality.

Having children is never, in and of itself, "immoral". And there is no particular standard of living that is "immoral" OR "moral" in and of itself.

It is immoral to be fucking around when you are not prepared or intending to take responsibility for the possible consequences. And it is immoral, once you have children, not to put them at the top of your priority list and do everything in your power to provide for at least their basic needs.

I think that is what the OP meant. Having children without the means to support their basic needs is incredibly thoughtless.
Having children with minimal needs met but plans to work hard and better yourself is not at all wrong..perfect in fact.
I think the gist is what a person is/is not doing to provide better for their family.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

If a person plans to have a child knowing that the kid(s) will not be provided a reasonable life (talking USA standards here) -- good education, not worrying about housing/food/clothes, access to opportunities to really exceed in life, etc, is that person making an immoral choice and should they be held accountable for it?

If I was unable to have a good paying job, and I knew that by having a kid I would be dooming that person to a life of struggle, pain, and a great likelihood of not accomplishing much (and probably turning criminal, etc), how could I say I really loved that child? What would I tell him when he or she is older and asks why I put them through such struggles?

Kinda hard to figure out if you are going to be a good parent until you do it.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

What's immoral is having children and then demanding someone else support them. People have been having children they can't afford since people have been having children.

Its far more moral to send them to bed hungry every night rather than get in line for food stamps?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Methinks some people miss the point, or just don't grasp the perspective required by morality.

Having children is never, in and of itself, "immoral". And there is no particular standard of living that is "immoral" OR "moral" in and of itself.

It is immoral to be fucking around when you are not prepared or intending to take responsibility for the possible consequences. And it is immoral, once you have children, not to put them at the top of your priority list and do everything in your power to provide for at least their basic needs.

I think that is what the OP meant. Having children without the means to support their basic needs is incredibly thoughtless.
Having children with minimal needs met but plans to work hard and better yourself is not at all wrong..perfect in fact.
I think the gist is what a person is/is not doing to provide better for their family.

No, the OP did NOT mean what I said, and you're still failing to make the differentiation. I said nothing about "means". I talked about "intent".

 

[Cecilie1200]

If a person plans to have a child knowing that the kid(s) will not be provided a reasonable life (talking USA standards here) -- good education, not worrying about housing/food/clothes, access to opportunities to really exceed in life, etc, is that person making an immoral choice and should they be held accountable for it?

If I was unable to have a good paying job, and I knew that by having a kid I would be dooming that person to a life of struggle, pain, and a great likelihood of not accomplishing much (and probably turning criminal, etc), how could I say I really loved that child? What would I tell him when he or she is older and asks why I put them through such struggles?

Kinda hard to figure out if you are going to be a good parent until you do it.

Why? I will never understand people who want to treat everything in their lives as though they're helpless, immobilized bystanders being victimized by out-of-control fate. Being a good parent isn't a matter of "figuring out IF you are", it's a matter of deciding to BE, and then following through.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

If a person plans to have a child knowing that the kid(s) will not be provided a reasonable life (talking USA standards here) -- good education, not worrying about housing/food/clothes, access to opportunities to really exceed in life, etc, is that person making an immoral choice and should they be held accountable for it?

If I was unable to have a good paying job, and I knew that by having a kid I would be dooming that person to a life of struggle, pain, and a great likelihood of not accomplishing much (and probably turning criminal, etc), how could I say I really loved that child? What would I tell him when he or she is older and asks why I put them through such struggles?

Kinda hard to figure out if you are going to be a good parent until you do it.

Why?

Why can't someone predict the future?

seriously?

I will never understand people who want to treat everything in their lives as though they're helpless, immobilized bystanders being victimized by out-of-control fate. Being a good parent isn't a matter of "figuring out IF you are", it's a matter of deciding to BE, and then following through.

And what happens when the economy decides you no longer have income?

 

[Cecilie1200]

What's immoral is having children and then demanding someone else support them. People have been having children they can't afford since people have been having children.

Its far more moral to send them to bed hungry every night rather than get in line for food stamps?

Because those are the only two choices you can see? THAT would be the immorality: acting like a helpless victim in your own life. Why is earning some money to buy food not an option in your worldview, or possibly giving the child to someone who CAN feed him if you're simply unable to muster that much gumption?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

What's immoral is having children and then demanding someone else support them. People have been having children they can't afford since people have been having children.

Its far more moral to send them to bed hungry every night rather than get in line for food stamps?

Because those are the only two choices you can see?

Or you could rob a liquor store I guess.

THAT would be the immorality: acting like a helpless victim in your own life. Why is earning some money to buy food not an option in your worldview, or possibly giving the child to someone who CAN feed him if you're simply unable to muster that much gumption?

What reality do you live in that someone can just give themselves a raise?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Kinda hard to figure out if you are going to be a good parent until you do it.

Why?

Why can't someone predict the future?

seriously?

I will never understand people who want to treat everything in their lives as though they're helpless, immobilized bystanders being victimized by out-of-control fate. Being a good parent isn't a matter of "figuring out IF you are", it's a matter of deciding to BE, and then following through.

And what happens when the economy decides you no longer have income?

Predict the future? You think it takes some sort of fortune-telling to know what kind of person you are, and to decide what kind of person you're going to be? This is really that hard for you? Damn, no wonder you're so clueless about everything else, if you find YOURSELF to be a huge mystery.

What happens when "the economy decides I no longer have an income"? There's that "I'm a helpless victim in my own life, with no decision-making power or control at all" attitude. If something bad happens to YOUR income, I assume you just sit on your dead ass, whining and waiting for someone else to fix it. If something bad happens in MY life, I look for a way to fix it. And I'd rather turn tricks on the street corner than 1) let my children go hungry, or 2) become a pathetic professional victim like you.

Let me tell you something, cluebird. My dad had a major stroke while I was a senior in high school. Had my mother been like you, I assume we'd have all ended up in a homeless shelter somewhere, waiting for the food stamps and welfare checks every month. Instead, she cleaned hotel rooms, then took on extra jobs after work cleaning private homes, and tarred roofs and made repairs around our apartment complex to cover our rent and keep me in school until I graduated. As soon as I did, I started cleaning kennels at a dog hospital and detailing cars on the side to help keep us fed.

Don't tell me about how you have no choices and no control just because something bad happened to you, boo fucking hoo, now you have to be a bum.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Its far more moral to send them to bed hungry every night rather than get in line for food stamps?

Because those are the only two choices you can see?

Or you could rob a liquor store I guess.

THAT would be the immorality: acting like a helpless victim in your own life. Why is earning some money to buy food not an option in your worldview, or possibly giving the child to someone who CAN feed him if you're simply unable to muster that much gumption?

What reality do you live in that someone can just give themselves a raise?

Oh, okay. Fucking bum, abusive parent, or violent criminal are the only choices you can see in life. And you wonder why everyone views you with such contempt.

What reality do YOU live in that the only way to decide to make a living is to "give yourself a raise"? You just really can't grasp the idea of independence and personal responsibility, can you?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Why?

Why can't someone predict the future?

seriously?

I will never understand people who want to treat everything in their lives as though they're helpless, immobilized bystanders being victimized by out-of-control fate. Being a good parent isn't a matter of "figuring out IF you are", it's a matter of deciding to BE, and then following through.

And what happens when the economy decides you no longer have income?

Predict the future? You think it takes some sort of fortune-telling to know what kind of person you are, and to decide what kind of person you're going to be?

Most people go to their graves without a significant grasp on who they are. Its better to not worry about such questions and just live.

This is really that hard for you? Damn, no wonder you're so clueless about everything else, if you find YOURSELF to be a huge mystery.

? You're a strange person.

What happens when "the economy decides I no longer have an income"? There's that "I'm a helpless victim in my own life, with no decision-making power or control at all" attitude. If something bad happens to YOUR income, I assume you just sit on your dead ass, whining and waiting for someone else to fix it. If something bad happens in MY life, I look for a way to fix it. And I'd rather turn tricks on the street corner than 1) let my children go hungry, or 2) become a pathetic professional victim like you.

So you'd rather break the law than get food stamps. Wow. And you're lecturing others on morality? LOL!

Until you're faced with the choice of selling your body for sex or begging for assistance from Uncle Sam - maybe you shouldn't pretend to know what you'd do?

Let me tell you something, cluebird. My dad had a major stroke while I was a senior in high school. Had my mother been like you

My wife and I together make six figures. I have no idea where you got the idea that I live at a homeless shelter.

, I assume we'd have all ended up in a homeless shelter somewhere, waiting for the food stamps and welfare checks every month. Instead, she cleaned hotel rooms, then took on extra jobs after work cleaning private homes, and tarred roofs and made repairs around our apartment complex to cover our rent and keep me in school until I graduated. As soon as I did, I started cleaning kennels at a dog hospital and detailing cars on the side to help keep us fed.

I don't really give a shit.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why can't someone predict the future?

seriously?



And what happens when the economy decides you no longer have income?

Predict the future? You think it takes some sort of fortune-telling to know what kind of person you are, and to decide what kind of person you're going to be?

Most people go to their graves without a significant grasp on who they are. Its better to not worry about such questions and just live.

And you've just defined for everyone why a handful of people are uber-successful, and so many people are useless, envious drones. And no, "Most people are oblivious morons, so it's better for me to be, too" does not impress me.

The idea of taking tips on "what's better" from someone who advocates being a total stranger to herself and gormlessly wandering through life, helpless and at the mercy of the whims of fate, just makes me laugh.

? You're a strange person.



So you'd rather break the law than get food stamps. Wow. And you're lecturing others on morality? LOL!

Until you're faced with the choice of selling your body for sex or begging for assistance from Uncle Sam - maybe you shouldn't pretend to know what you'd do?

Maybe you shouldn't pretend to be so knowledgable about who other people are and what they would and wouldn't do when you just got done telling us it was unreasonable to even expect you to know who YOU are and what YOU would do.

And who are YOU to tell ANYONE about morality? You think the only choices in life are to be a helpless leech, a neglectful parent, or violent, and then you want to lecture ME about how sitting on your dead ass all day with your hand out, whining about how "the economy decided I don't have an income, poor me" is moral?

Disabuse yourself of the notion that you are anyone's idea of a font of wisdom or an example to be followed in any way, shape, or form.

Let me tell you something, cluebird. My dad had a major stroke while I was a senior in high school. Had my mother been like you

My wife and I together make six figures. I have no idea where you got the idea that I live at a homeless shelter.

I sincerely doubt you make much money at all, given how painfully ignorant and borderline illiterate you are. I never said you live in a homeless shelter, you ignoramus. I said that if my mother had ascribed to your gormless life philosophy - if such childish ignorance can even be called a "philosophy" - WE would have wound up there. And I have no doubt whatsoever that if some calamity were to befall you, that's how YOU'D wind up, too, because you've proven yourself utterly incapable of dealing with harsh realities.

I don't really give a shit.

No, fools rarely "give a shit" about the opportunity to learn and grow, rather than continuing to view the world in a foolish manner.

Continue deluding yourself that any believes your lies of Internet financial success, and continue knowing in your heart that you're a joke.