Is God vs Satan - Final Battle how the world supposed to end?

[The Irish Ram]

So Satan is part of God's plan?

Not originally. Satan was the one who choose to go against God's plans.
Satan is the one who got angry with him and rebelled. He also talked a third of the angels to join him.
You have no free will, without good and evil.

God Knew Lucifer would rebel. It was part of his plan. No one can refute God's will.

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

Why hasn't God destroyed him?

He will.

But why wait when there is suffering? Children with cancer suffer, their parents suffer. What's the hold up?

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

 

[kjw47]

Not originally. Satan was the one who choose to go against God's plans.
Satan is the one who got angry with him and rebelled. He also talked a third of the angels to join him.
You have no free will, without good and evil.

God Knew Lucifer would rebel. It was part of his plan. No one can refute God's will.

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

He will.

But why wait when there is suffering? Children with cancer suffer, their parents suffer. What's the hold up?

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Yes God prophecised his will that would occur without fail. As well he could see where things had to go by the development of that will. And the ability to read hearts and see years of patterns. Yes Satan is bound for destruction in the lake of fire.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Not originally. Satan was the one who choose to go against God's plans.
Satan is the one who got angry with him and rebelled. He also talked a third of the angels to join him.
You have no free will, without good and evil.

God Knew Lucifer would rebel. It was part of his plan. No one can refute God's will.

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

He will.

But why wait when there is suffering? Children with cancer suffer, their parents suffer. What's the hold up?

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Then God must have seen Satan's rebellion. It must've been part of His plan for creation. And therefore injustice and suffering are part of His plan.

So why then did God foresee that Adam and Eve would fall from Grace, but forbade them from eating from the Tree of Knowledge anyway? God foresaw the flood? God foresaw the enslavement of the Jews and their eventual release, but hardened Pharoah's heart; for what reason? God foresaw Judas' betrayal? God knows who is bound for damnation. Can God change His mind? Can any of us change the future if the future is known to God and His ultimate plan is already at work?

 

[BreezeWood]

to be fair, in a book that begins with "In the beginning" just like, 'once upon a time', that has a talking serpent and angels flying through the sky, what sober minded rational person would believe that it was a historical document and not a fairy tale and then conjure a prequel based on pure speculation, flawed reasoning, and misunderstanding that has even less to do with reality or what the book is actually about? Is it even possible to have a rational discussion with someone whose foundational premise is irrational?


If any person professed to believe that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about some magical time in the past when pigs and wolves could talk and build houses, would you not think that they had some mental health issues?

Would a rational person elect a candidate like that to any public office?

Well, there is always the scientifically "correct" fairy tales: Moon Created by Giant Collision, Studies Confirm - History in the Headlines

And to think with all this happening, man just happened and "evolved" out of some primordial soup. Which sounds more farfetched?

.

That a super natural being miracled all of it ... Especially without any direct or even circumstantial evidence to support such events.

without any direct or even circumstantial evidence to support such events.


there is scientific "circumstantial evidence" the Universe began at a moment of Singularity (Big Bang), a physically visible event - per an Awareness, living beings that all truths are linked with one another - "I think therefore I am".

anotherwords the Universe is not a mechanical device but has an undeniable Awareness shared by living beings as directed by creation having a central authority ... an Almighty.



as according to ancient texts based on the religious lore of nomadic shepherds

why their dogma persists is as much an issue as what they wrote ... if taken seriously.

.

 

[The Irish Ram]

God Knew Lucifer would rebel. It was part of his plan. No one can refute God's will.

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

But why wait when there is suffering? Children with cancer suffer, their parents suffer. What's the hold up?

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Then God must have seen Satan's rebellion. It must've been part of His plan for creation. And therefore injustice and suffering are part of His plan.

So why then did God foresee that Adam and Eve would fall from Grace, but forbade them from eating from the Tree of Knowledge anyway? God foresaw the flood? God foresaw the enslavement of the Jews and their eventual release, but hardened Pharoah's heart; for what reason? God foresaw Judas' betrayal? God knows who is bound for damnation. Can God change His mind? Can any of us change the future if the future is known to God and His ultimate plan is already at work?

He foresaw every bit of it. And decided children were worth the headache anyway. The injustice Satan targets us with is but a hiccup in terms of our eternal lives. It is basic training, not a day at the spa. Keep in mind that God created a playground for His children. And then told them how to stay safe from Satan's grasp. We took it from there. We invited Satan in. God knew it in advance what we'd do and had a plan in motion to thwart Satan long before our creation. Constant forgiveness, and a pure blood transfusion, and Satan can't touch us. And as soon as the age of the Gentile is fulfilled, God and Satan are going to have at it. God wins. And we'll return to God's idea. No death, no sorrow, no disease, no hate.... On earth, just as it is in Heaven. What more do you require?

 

[hobelim]

to be fair, in a book that begins with "In the beginning" just like, 'once upon a time', that has a talking serpent and angels flying through the sky, what sober minded rational person would believe that it was a historical document and not a fairy tale and then conjure a prequel based on pure speculation, flawed reasoning, and misunderstanding that has even less to do with reality or what the book is actually about? Is it even possible to have a rational discussion with someone whose foundational premise is irrational?


If any person professed to believe that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about some magical time in the past when pigs and wolves could talk and build houses, would you not think that they had some mental health issues?

Would a rational person elect a candidate like that to any public office?

I can understand your point, but I think being disrespectful to people harms them, yourself, one's cause, and any non-posting audience. The main problem I have with religion is it's adherents; why emulate the worst of them?

I also understand your point but when a subject becomes the basis for legislating laws and institutionalizing customs that restrict civil liberties and affect national policy with potentially long lasting disastrous results for all it really isn't the time to be playing Mr. Nice Guy.

Look at what carnage these religious fundamentalist bastards have caused unchecked for the past 50 years let alone the past several thousand. They can't wait for the end of the world. Many have already usurped positions of authority with legions of adoring pod people and many others are actively jockeying for positions of authority in order to have front row seats and you care if their feelings get hurt?

I care if we hurt their feelings if by doing so we represent our cause poorly, thereby turning off more supporters, galvinizing opposition, and in the long term promoting their positions by repulsing more people and public support than winning to the cause of critical thinking, logic, reason, rationality, and secularism.

I see things a little differently. The cause of critical thinking, reason and rationality cannot be lost, even if you were the only rational person left on earth.. Even according to the teaching of the fairy tale that they profess to believe is the very word of God, religious deceivers, talking serpents who prey on the gullible for a living, are despicable con-men condemned by God as the lowest form of human life possible, (genesis 3:14), hardly worthy of respect.

Jesus himself prayed for Gods will in condemning the serpent to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Unfortunately even in this day and age when it is a well known and widely accepted fact among all intelligent people of every religion that the world did not begin 6000 years ago and will not end within the next 6000 years many religious deceivers are crippling the minds of the young with impunity by teaching them that one fairy tale or another is a historical document, their criminal abuse protected by federal law and even encouraged with tax breaks and special places in the shadows of government as religious advisors on political, social and legal matters that no one ever elected.

You will never win over anyone who has been alive for more than 50 years who professes to believe or teaches other people that Jesus is about to float down from the sky ANY MINUTE to make everything new by throwing unbelievers into sulfurous flames and recreating the planet into a paradise where no one ever dies even if you reasoned with them forever. I think its safe to say that by the time a person is that old they have made deception a deliberate choice. So what if someone pays them back in their own coin and the contempt and condemnation that they wish on everyone else who does not buy into their bullshit falls on their own heads.

Anyone person that sincerely seeks the kingdom of God but has been victimized and deceived into believing lies will side with the truth as soon as they hear it, and even if they are 99 years old and had been blinded and crippled since birth sitting meekly in the pews for their entire lives they will hear the voice of reason, see what they have been mixed up with, and then stand up and walk right out of their graves.
.

I understand. I feel the same way. TV evangelists and the like morally and intellectually disgust me; that they have followers and a captive audience makes it only worse.

As a person who believes that reason, logic, critical thinking, and secularism are essential for a just, moral, and fruitful society it's important to me that these causes are best served by the actions and behavior of those who represent them.

Other people react differently than I do to what they perceive to be disrespectful behavior or attitudes. They may react emotionally. I don't understand why one's emotions would override their rational thinking when it comes to arguments made logically and likewise supported, but people are not as rational as perhaps you and I are. If we are perceived as dicks, some people will immediately feel an urge not to be associated with these causes simply because we are.

Like conservatives might see liberals as pussies or weak and may think that to even consider liberal positions would question their manhood or liberals who may think that to even consider conservative positions is racist, greedy, and heartless. Whether or not a policy is rational, logical, or moral is secondary.

And because I also think that moral authority is important when engaging a moral question - such as religion - staying above, as best you can, the shit slinging serves my cause best.

By taking into consideration the ways in which different people function, even if it isn't logical, is the most logical course to achieve what I think would be a better world.

I am more than willing to have calm respectful discussions with any person about the positive or negative effects of drinking alcohol as long as its not while they are driving drunk.

Its time to get irrational religious kooks out of the drivers seat. They would love to steer us all onto a divided highway blindly speeding in the wrong direction. Being nice under present circumstances could get everyone in the car killed...

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I can understand your point, but I think being disrespectful to people harms them, yourself, one's cause, and any non-posting audience. The main problem I have with religion is it's adherents; why emulate the worst of them?

I also understand your point but when a subject becomes the basis for legislating laws and institutionalizing customs that restrict civil liberties and affect national policy with potentially long lasting disastrous results for all it really isn't the time to be playing Mr. Nice Guy.

Look at what carnage these religious fundamentalist bastards have caused unchecked for the past 50 years let alone the past several thousand. They can't wait for the end of the world. Many have already usurped positions of authority with legions of adoring pod people and many others are actively jockeying for positions of authority in order to have front row seats and you care if their feelings get hurt?

I care if we hurt their feelings if by doing so we represent our cause poorly, thereby turning off more supporters, galvinizing opposition, and in the long term promoting their positions by repulsing more people and public support than winning to the cause of critical thinking, logic, reason, rationality, and secularism.

I see things a little differently. The cause of critical thinking, reason and rationality cannot be lost, even if you were the only rational person left on earth.. Even according to the teaching of the fairy tale that they profess to believe is the very word of God, religious deceivers, talking serpents who prey on the gullible for a living, are despicable con-men condemned by God as the lowest form of human life possible, (genesis 3:14), hardly worthy of respect.

Jesus himself prayed for Gods will in condemning the serpent to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Unfortunately even in this day and age when it is a well known and widely accepted fact among all intelligent people of every religion that the world did not begin 6000 years ago and will not end within the next 6000 years many religious deceivers are crippling the minds of the young with impunity by teaching them that one fairy tale or another is a historical document, their criminal abuse protected by federal law and even encouraged with tax breaks and special places in the shadows of government as religious advisors on political, social and legal matters that no one ever elected.

You will never win over anyone who has been alive for more than 50 years who professes to believe or teaches other people that Jesus is about to float down from the sky ANY MINUTE to make everything new by throwing unbelievers into sulfurous flames and recreating the planet into a paradise where no one ever dies even if you reasoned with them forever. I think its safe to say that by the time a person is that old they have made deception a deliberate choice. So what if someone pays them back in their own coin and the contempt and condemnation that they wish on everyone else who does not buy into their bullshit falls on their own heads.

Anyone person that sincerely seeks the kingdom of God but has been victimized and deceived into believing lies will side with the truth as soon as they hear it, and even if they are 99 years old and had been blinded and crippled since birth sitting meekly in the pews for their entire lives they will hear the voice of reason, see what they have been mixed up with, and then stand up and walk right out of their graves.
.

I understand. I feel the same way. TV evangelists and the like morally and intellectually disgust me; that they have followers and a captive audience makes it only worse.

As a person who believes that reason, logic, critical thinking, and secularism are essential for a just, moral, and fruitful society it's important to me that these causes are best served by the actions and behavior of those who represent them.

Other people react differently than I do to what they perceive to be disrespectful behavior or attitudes. They may react emotionally. I don't understand why one's emotions would override their rational thinking when it comes to arguments made logically and likewise supported, but people are not as rational as perhaps you and I are. If we are perceived as dicks, some people will immediately feel an urge not to be associated with these causes simply because we are.

Like conservatives might see liberals as pussies or weak and may think that to even consider liberal positions would question their manhood or liberals who may think that to even consider conservative positions is racist, greedy, and heartless. Whether or not a policy is rational, logical, or moral is secondary.

And because I also think that moral authority is important when engaging a moral question - such as religion - staying above, as best you can, the shit slinging serves my cause best.

By taking into consideration the ways in which different people function, even if it isn't logical, is the most logical course to achieve what I think would be a better world.

I am more than willing to have calm respectful discussions with any person about the positive or negative effects of drinking alcohol as long as its not while they are driving drunk.

Its time to get irrational religious kooks out of the drivers seat. They would love to steer us all onto an international highway speeding in the wrong direction. Being nice under present circumstances could get everyone in the car killed...

You're angry. But that anger expressed as a kind of verbal violence does nothing to get the driver out from behind the wheel, and even provokes the other passengers to ignore you, to continue with you metaphor. My point is that you do yourself no favors by insulting or deriding people.

Unless, of course, you're here on an internet message board posting anonymously just to vent that anger and not really to communicate.

 

[hobelim]

I also understand your point but when a subject becomes the basis for legislating laws and institutionalizing customs that restrict civil liberties and affect national policy with potentially long lasting disastrous results for all it really isn't the time to be playing Mr. Nice Guy.

Look at what carnage these religious fundamentalist bastards have caused unchecked for the past 50 years let alone the past several thousand. They can't wait for the end of the world. Many have already usurped positions of authority with legions of adoring pod people and many others are actively jockeying for positions of authority in order to have front row seats and you care if their feelings get hurt?

I care if we hurt their feelings if by doing so we represent our cause poorly, thereby turning off more supporters, galvinizing opposition, and in the long term promoting their positions by repulsing more people and public support than winning to the cause of critical thinking, logic, reason, rationality, and secularism.

I see things a little differently. The cause of critical thinking, reason and rationality cannot be lost, even if you were the only rational person left on earth.. Even according to the teaching of the fairy tale that they profess to believe is the very word of God, religious deceivers, talking serpents who prey on the gullible for a living, are despicable con-men condemned by God as the lowest form of human life possible, (genesis 3:14), hardly worthy of respect.

Jesus himself prayed for Gods will in condemning the serpent to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Unfortunately even in this day and age when it is a well known and widely accepted fact among all intelligent people of every religion that the world did not begin 6000 years ago and will not end within the next 6000 years many religious deceivers are crippling the minds of the young with impunity by teaching them that one fairy tale or another is a historical document, their criminal abuse protected by federal law and even encouraged with tax breaks and special places in the shadows of government as religious advisors on political, social and legal matters that no one ever elected.

You will never win over anyone who has been alive for more than 50 years who professes to believe or teaches other people that Jesus is about to float down from the sky ANY MINUTE to make everything new by throwing unbelievers into sulfurous flames and recreating the planet into a paradise where no one ever dies even if you reasoned with them forever. I think its safe to say that by the time a person is that old they have made deception a deliberate choice. So what if someone pays them back in their own coin and the contempt and condemnation that they wish on everyone else who does not buy into their bullshit falls on their own heads.

Anyone person that sincerely seeks the kingdom of God but has been victimized and deceived into believing lies will side with the truth as soon as they hear it, and even if they are 99 years old and had been blinded and crippled since birth sitting meekly in the pews for their entire lives they will hear the voice of reason, see what they have been mixed up with, and then stand up and walk right out of their graves.
.

I understand. I feel the same way. TV evangelists and the like morally and intellectually disgust me; that they have followers and a captive audience makes it only worse.

As a person who believes that reason, logic, critical thinking, and secularism are essential for a just, moral, and fruitful society it's important to me that these causes are best served by the actions and behavior of those who represent them.

Other people react differently than I do to what they perceive to be disrespectful behavior or attitudes. They may react emotionally. I don't understand why one's emotions would override their rational thinking when it comes to arguments made logically and likewise supported, but people are not as rational as perhaps you and I are. If we are perceived as dicks, some people will immediately feel an urge not to be associated with these causes simply because we are.

Like conservatives might see liberals as pussies or weak and may think that to even consider liberal positions would question their manhood or liberals who may think that to even consider conservative positions is racist, greedy, and heartless. Whether or not a policy is rational, logical, or moral is secondary.

And because I also think that moral authority is important when engaging a moral question - such as religion - staying above, as best you can, the shit slinging serves my cause best.

By taking into consideration the ways in which different people function, even if it isn't logical, is the most logical course to achieve what I think would be a better world.

I am more than willing to have calm respectful discussions with any person about the positive or negative effects of drinking alcohol as long as its not while they are driving drunk.

Its time to get irrational religious kooks out of the drivers seat. They would love to steer us all onto an international highway speeding in the wrong direction. Being nice under present circumstances could get everyone in the car killed...

You're angry. But that anger expressed as a kind of verbal violence does nothing to get the driver out from behind the wheel, and even provokes the other passengers to ignore you, to continue with you metaphor. My point is that you do yourself no favors by insulting or deriding people.

Unless, of course, you're here on an internet message board posting anonymously just to vent that anger and not really to communicate.

I am not here to vent anger anonymously at people who post anonymously. Ridicule can be an effective method in tearing down the walls of obstinance. And I really don't care where the chips fall.

And of course I am here communicating something knowing full well in advance that there are many who have given over their minds to perpetuate falsehood who are incapable of honest discussion and will never be open to reason.

Like buried treasure I have revealed deeper meaning in the words of the book that they all profess to believe conveys the truth.

I have seen many people walk away with something of great value in their pockets...

I'm satisfied.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Then God must have seen Satan's rebellion. It must've been part of His plan for creation. And therefore injustice and suffering are part of His plan.

So why then did God foresee that Adam and Eve would fall from Grace, but forbade them from eating from the Tree of Knowledge anyway? God foresaw the flood? God foresaw the enslavement of the Jews and their eventual release, but hardened Pharoah's heart; for what reason? God foresaw Judas' betrayal? God knows who is bound for damnation. Can God change His mind? Can any of us change the future if the future is known to God and His ultimate plan is already at work?

He foresaw every bit of it. And decided children were worth the headache anyway. The injustice Satan targets us with is but a hiccup in terms of our eternal lives. It is basic training, not a day at the spa. Keep in mind that God created a playground for His children. And then told them how to stay safe from Satan's grasp. We took it from there. We invited Satan in. God knew it in advance what we'd do and had a plan in motion to thwart Satan long before our creation. Constant forgiveness, and a pure blood transfusion, and Satan can't touch us. And as soon as the age of the Gentile is fulfilled, God and Satan are going to have at it. God wins. And we'll return to God's idea. No death, no sorrow, no disease, no hate.... On earth, just as it is in Heaven. What more do you require?

That all of it make some sort of logical sense?

As far as I know, the God of the Bible, is the source of love and is it's embodiment. (Correct me if I'm wrong - this is just how I understand it.). And God is the perfect being: one of those perfect qualities is justness.

Everyday somewhere around 5,000 innocent children die of starvation. More die of disease: malaria, dysentery, cancer. How many die from violence and disaster and accidents. Here's the problem: God is just, but these children suffer and die unjustly. The most common ways in which children die are not because of other human beings choosing to do evil to them but because of poverty or famine, and God didn't provide for them, or because God created disease, or because God didn't miracle the child to safety before it was hit by a car - or didn't answer the parents' prayers as the child lie in a hospital bed dying after an accident.

You didn't invite Satan in to, as you put it, our little playground. Neither did I. I take no responsibility for the actions of any other ancient peoples, do you? Neither do infants who within their first year of life develop inoperable brain tumors. That isn't justice.

And although we could trivialize and minimize the suffering and injustice that we experience in our lives - it does not change that suffering nor that injustice into anything else but what they are: suffering and injustice.

And God foresaw and did nothing to avert these injustices, and in some cases even partook it on His own people or their enemies i.e. Pharoah's heart needlessly hardened so that the people of Egypt would suffer and their children would die. Did God need to harden Pharoah's heart? Why kill all first born children and not just kill Pharoah's son? What did Pharoah's son do to deserve death? That isn't justice.

God foresaw Satan's rebellion, foresaw that Satan would tempt Eve, and that death and evil would enter the world. And God knew this before He created Satan or the Universe. And I assume God had a plan when He created Satan and when He created the Universe and so that plan incorporates injustice, using suffering to achieve its ends. God knew of and planned that suffering and injustice for humankind, including innocents, from the very beginning.

How would you logically explain that?

 

[hobelim]

God knew of and planned that suffering and injustice for humankind, including innocents, from the very beginning.

How would you logically explain that?

I'm not even going to try to logically explain something IrishRam claims about what God did or didn't know and condone since the beginning.

The way I see it, 'In the beginning' refers to a period in history no more than 6,000 years ago when "the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep." when people lived much like wild animals without any sense of good and evil and absolutely no knowledge about the nature of reality or our place in the universe. - darkness covered the face of the deep.

"Let there be light" is a reference to the law being given.

As far as the suffering of innocent children starving in the world, I wouldn't blame God or even some invisible devil for that.

I think even some religious kooks already made the point that people alone, the good the bad and the ugly, are responsible for that.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God knew of and planned that suffering and injustice for humankind, including innocents, from the very beginning.

How would you logically explain that?

I'm not even going to try to logically explain something IrishRam claims about what God did or didn't know and condone since the beginning.

The way I see it, 'In the beginning' refers to a period in history no more than 10,000 years ago when "the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep."

"Let there be light" is a reference to the law being given.

As far as the suffering of innocent children starving in the world, I wouldn't blame God or even the devil for that.

I think even some religious kooks already made the point that people, the good the bad and the ugly, are responsible for that.

I know that argument: that freewill where humankind has chosen evil is the root of suffering. My rebuttal is that infants who suffer because of cancer or starvation did not choose evil. That no one currently suffering ate from the Tree of Knowledge. That anyone but Eve should suffer for her sin is not justice. Either God is omnipotent and cruel, or God is trying to adapt to unforeseen events and is doing His best but failing to be just.

 

[hobelim]

God knew of and planned that suffering and injustice for humankind, including innocents, from the very beginning.

How would you logically explain that?

I'm not even going to try to logically explain something IrishRam claims about what God did or didn't know and condone since the beginning.

The way I see it, 'In the beginning' refers to a period in history no more than 10,000 years ago when "the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep."

"Let there be light" is a reference to the law being given.

As far as the suffering of innocent children starving in the world, I wouldn't blame God or even the devil for that.

I think even some religious kooks already made the point that people, the good the bad and the ugly, are responsible for that.

I know that argument: that freewill where humankind has chosen evil is the root of suffering. My rebuttal is that infants who suffer because of cancer or starvation did not choose evil. That no one currently suffering ate from the Tree of Knowledge. That anyone but Eve should suffer for her sin is not justice. Either God is omnipotent and cruel, or God is trying to adapt to unforeseen events and is doing His best but failing to be just.

I think that you are confusing God and what is actually written with Church doctrine and what confused people say about him.

Try to include in your speculations that that story is an ancient story written by ancient people to educate their children.

Try re-reading the story as if you were a bronze age child of nomadic people reading a fairy tale specifically designed to teach children hard learned lessons from an even more ancient past and what rational adults back then did know about the realities of the world around them..

 

[hangover]

God Knew Lucifer would rebel. It was part of his plan. No one can refute God's will.

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

But why wait when there is suffering? Children with cancer suffer, their parents suffer. What's the hold up?

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Then God must have seen Satan's rebellion. It must've been part of His plan for creation. And therefore injustice and suffering are part of His plan.

So why then did God foresee that Adam and Eve would fall from Grace, but forbade them from eating from the Tree of Knowledge anyway? God foresaw the flood? God foresaw the enslavement of the Jews and their eventual release, but hardened Pharoah's heart; for what reason? God foresaw Judas' betrayal? God knows who is bound for damnation. Can God change His mind? Can any of us change the future if the future is known to God and His ultimate plan is already at work?

So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," Exodus 32:12-14,

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hob, the law wasn't given until the Jews left Egypt. In the beginning there was no one to give the law to. You don't have to explain anything to me. It was God who claimed He could see the end from the beginning. I am just one of the ones that believes Him. He said He had a plan in place before the earth was even formed. Not me.

Co.man, Before I even got pregnant, I knew my kids would screw up sometimes. I planned for those occasions and had them anyway, because I had so much love to lavish on them, and because of the love I would get in return, I felt they were worth it. And as much as I love them, I can't protect them from the evils in this world. I can offer them my help, but they have minds of their own.
It's the same with God.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jehovah did not know the angel being who came to be called satan and devil would rebel. That angel was in a very high position, He was appointed over the earth--he got jealous and wanted worship. Anyone with free will can rebel.

I thought that Jehovah is all-knowing. That is accepted Christian theology, isn't it?

God cannot see what will occur in the future, except what his will is.

When satan told Eve--they would become like God, knowing good and bad if they ate of the tree--he was saying--- If we knew both sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to listen to Gods advice to find lasting happiness. This was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty-- so once and for all time it is being proven---God was correct, mortals should know only good and listen to Gods advice. 1/3 of the angels fell later, which means it would have occurred over and over if God chose another way. God is always--CORRECT.
Gods kingdom is coming--its a cure all.

I don't understand your answer very well. Would you mind clarifying it as though explaining it to someone who doesn't attend church or bible study (me, for example)?

Once the events( rebellion) in Eden occurred, God had 2 choices--kill them on the spot( but not one who has been granted life all throughout would have received life) and Gods justice prevented that--so the only other alternative was to let it be proven--Is God correct and knowing only good and listening to Gods advice is the best path for mortals to find lasting happiness, or is satan right--that knowing both good and bad, its best mortals make their own choice-- this sick system of things proves 100%--God is correct.

God sees the end from the beginning. He is not bound by dimensions. Example:
You are standing on the sidewalk on 5th St.. A parade turns the corner and you watch it move past you until it takes a right turn on Main St. and moves out of your sight. You didn't see it begin, you didn't see it end. You saw it from your perspective. Now, Mr. Smith is in a helicopter above the town. HE sees the beginning, the middle and the end of the parade from HIS vantage point. Time is merely a dimension God created. He is not tethered to it.

To prove to you, that He can see the beginning from the end, God prophesied future events. He knew the exact day Israel would become a Nation again for example, and told the day to Daniel, thousands of years before the event. He has also predicted the very worst of man's inhumanity to man in Revelation. He predicted the future over 10,000 times with precision. 1/4 of His Book is prophesy, just so we would know He is who He says He is.


Why hasn't God destroyed Satan? Satan is spirit., as the other angels are, as we are. Satan never dies, he is eternal. Satan has two temporary events to look forward to, and one permanent event. Being chained for 1,000 years. Being loosed for a time, and then being dispatched to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Then God must have seen Satan's rebellion. It must've been part of His plan for creation. And therefore injustice and suffering are part of His plan.

So why then did God foresee that Adam and Eve would fall from Grace, but forbade them from eating from the Tree of Knowledge anyway? God foresaw the flood? God foresaw the enslavement of the Jews and their eventual release, but hardened Pharoah's heart; for what reason? God foresaw Judas' betrayal? God knows who is bound for damnation. Can God change His mind? Can any of us change the future if the future is known to God and His ultimate plan is already at work?

So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," Exodus 32:12-14,

Man has changed God's mind at times. God was dealing with a very ugly, willful group of people. They were the only people on earth that God retracted His unmerited favor for them and changed His name from Abba< Loving, constantly forgiving, Daddy, to Judge. He did so because they challenged Him to bring it!
When they decided to kill Moses it was the last straw. He started dropping them like flies. Aaron changed God's mind, and He stopped. For Aaron's sake, not the Jew's sake.

We are made in His image. Just like us, God experiences joy, sadness, pride, anguish, compassion, anger, forgiveness.
I had a Dad who loved me to the moon and back, but boy, could I ever piss him off, and was often punished for my behavior, but was always and perpetually forgiven, because He loved me.

 

[hobelim]

Hob, the law wasn't given until the Jews left Egypt. In the beginning there was no one to give the law to.

If "in the beginning" there was no one to give the law to, who was there to write down what happened? Can you at least try to be rational?

"In the beginning" refers to a period in history no more than 6,000 years ago when "the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep." which alludes to "once upon a time" when people lived much like wild animals without any sense of good and evil with absolutely no knowledge about the nature of reality or our place in the universe. - darkness covered the face of the deep. People were everywhere, Cain built a city for Christ's sake, they were all just living in the dark like brute beasts in a lawless wilderness of pain and confusion where superstition and ignorance reign.


The Nachash is a hebrew word that is both a noun and an adjective meaning, serpent, shining one, brazen, and or someone who practices divination, the stars of the ancient world. . By introducing a talking serpent into the story the adjectives of the hebrew word for serpent are meant to directly refer to a religious deceiver, a human being, a low-life but a human being, specifically someone who practices divination and sorcery through mind control intimidation and deception.

Try to think back to once upon a time when you were a little girl. Did anyone ever manipulate and intimidate you into worshipping and eating a lifeless matzo made by human hands right after they spent months cramming the ten commandments down your throat making damn sure that you understood that hell and death were the consequences for disobedience?

That my dear was the same ever elusive species of talking serpent that screwed life up for Adam and Eve in the beginning, using the power of death consequent to defying the commands of God to subjugate you for life..still works like a charm.

And this ain't no fairy tale.

 

[james bond]

I watched this on youtube and didn't know it was supposed to end like this. Been a Christian since 2012. Many people think the end of days will be man-made like global warming or nuclear war or through natural cause such as a virus or bacteria, but this makes sense -- one EVIL person or group rises to take over the world.

James it is all of the above. There is a difference between the end of days and the tribulation period that would lead to total annihilation of life on earth were it not for Christ's return. All of the conditions you mentioned as scenarios will take place in conjunction with a political man being chosen to run the New World Order. < A combination of EU, UN, and Islam. (The one world gov., and Islam are the 2 components described by Daniel as the feet of a statue in a dream he interpreted.)
The leader, this man with an enormous ego, will be assassinated. The wound will be mortal. Satan assumes the body at that point.
While we are now in the end of days, with Israel becoming a Nation heralding the end time clock, the church of Christians will be removed before the tribulation period begins. God's children are not appointed to His wrath.

Now Satan/ the man that supposedly survived the assassination, will be looked upon as a pseudo Christ, more than an anti-Christ. He will negotiate a false world peace. He will work small miracles, and the world will bow at the leaders feet. Even Israel will welcome him, and credit him with the go ahead to rebuild their Temple. The day he waltzes into that Temple and declares himself God, the shit will hit the fan. When it looks like Israel is doomed, Christ returns with the Christians that were removed prior to the devastation, not as a Lamb of God, but as a Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The battle that ensues will take place at Meggido, in the Valley of Jehoshaphat. It was the location of the first battle on earth and will be the location of the last. Less than 1/4 of the earth's population will survive prior to Christ's return.

But there is no end. Christ remains. Satan is bound in chains and the earth repopulates for 1,000 years. Then comes the next chapter.

It gives me something more to read now .

 

[The Irish Ram]

God knew of and planned that suffering and injustice for humankind, including innocents, from the very beginning.

How would you logically explain that?

I'm not even going to try to logically explain something IrishRam claims about what God did or didn't know and condone since the beginning.

The way I see it, 'In the beginning' refers to a period in history no more than 10,000 years ago when "the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness covered the face of the deep."

"Let there be light" is a reference to the law being given.

As far as the suffering of innocent children starving in the world, I wouldn't blame God or even the devil for that.

I think even some religious kooks already made the point that people, the good the bad and the ugly, are responsible for that.

I know that argument: that freewill where humankind has chosen evil is the root of suffering. My rebuttal is that infants who suffer because of cancer or starvation did not choose evil. That no one currently suffering ate from the Tree of Knowledge. That anyone but Eve should suffer for her sin is not justice. Either God is omnipotent and cruel, or God is trying to adapt to unforeseen events and is doing His best but failing to be just.

Sin is a blood issue. It is passed down from generation to generation. The only cure is a pure blood transfusion. Which God supplied. I know it is hard to understand why bad things happen to good people. This is earth. For a short time it is Satan's domain. He attacks the innocent, our loved ones, and us. He isn't fair. And when our Father is done giving each age the opportunity to draw near to Him, He intend to Judge Satan for His crimes against humanity and dispose of him. This domain is going to revert to who it was intended for in the beginning. God is about to rectify Adam's mistake for good. As bad as Satan is, I am grateful for the age of the Gentile which has come to an end.
From the Age of Innocence, to the Age of the Law to the Age of the Gentile each approx. 1,500 yrs, the Gentile Age is the last Age mentioned in the Bible before the End Times begin. The justice from God that you are searching for, is soon to become quite evident.

 

[james bond]

You do the cause of atheism, skepticism, and rationality no favors with these kinds of responses.

to be fair, in a book that begins with "In the beginning" just like, 'once upon a time', that has a talking serpent and angels flying through the sky, what sober minded rational person would believe that it was a historical document and not a fairy tale and then conjure a prequel based on pure speculation, flawed reasoning, and misunderstanding that has even less to do with reality or what the book is actually about? Is it even possible to have a rational discussion with someone whose foundational premise is irrational?


If any person professed to believe that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about some magical time in the past when pigs and wolves could talk and build houses, would you not think that they had some mental health issues?

Would a rational person elect a candidate like that to any public office?

I can understand your point, but I think being disrespectful to people harms them, yourself, one's cause, and any non-posting audience. The main problem I have with religion is it's adherents; why emulate the worst of them?

I also understand your point but when a subject becomes the basis for legislating laws and institutionalizing customs that restrict civil liberties and affect national policy with potentially long lasting disastrous results for all it really isn't the time to be playing Mr. Nice Guy.

Look at what carnage these religious fundamentalist bastards have caused unchecked for the past 50 years let alone the past several thousand. They can't wait for the end of the world. Many have already usurped positions of authority with legions of adoring pod people and many others are actively jockeying for positions of authority in order to have front row seats and you care if their feelings get hurt?

I care if we hurt their feelings if by doing so we represent our cause poorly, thereby turning off more supporters, galvinizing opposition, and in the long term promoting their positions by repulsing more people and public support than winning to the cause of critical thinking, logic, reason, rationality, and secularism.

It is not rational or logical to think that a God is not possible, since there is no proof for such a position.

There is no proof to convince atheists. Lawrence Krauss once said if the stars rearranged itself to spell out, "I am here," then he would have to reassess. Later, another atheist chirped up the southern half of the planet would not be able to see it, so it would not be proof. The only proof I know is after one dies and begins their second life. The evidence of God is all around and in front of our noses for the believers.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hob, man was the last of God's creation week, not the first. God walked in the cool of the evening with Adam and Eve. Their children had conversions with Him. Abraham sat around the campfire with God, and they ate Sarah's stew. Sarah named her child "laughter" because she laughed at something God said. God sat on top of a mountain with Moses and told him all about the beginning. Lots of opportunities and generations for the beginning to be told to mankind.

Just because God created man 6,000 years ago, doesn't mean that is when He created the earth we know today. If the earth was without form, where were these wild humans that you have conjured up, standing? Void is useless, empty, space. Without form means no form. And the darkness that you refer to is not the absence of light. In the original Greek it is described as an "unnatural darkness", not natural dark matter. That unnatural darkness was Satan. God removed that darkness and formed something for His children to stand on. Before God created man, he used HIS physics to create form, light, gravity and even time, before Adam came along. God created animals and sea creatures before man. He has everything in perfect condition for us before He created us.

Stop adding to the word of God. It is how you have become so confused. Cain not only knew about nature, he and his brother lived off of it for years. They knew how to grow things in seasons, with daylight, and water. Cain had no idea who Christ was. He built a city because God lifted Cain's curse of nomadic life and allowed him to settle in one place.
And, there is nothing human about Satan. Spirit through and through. His longevity proves that.

Just read what it says. There is no reason for you to spin it in your head. Light.......Adam. Not wild men...light.....Cain.