Is God competent or incompetent?

[ding]

Do you know what it means that evil is not extant?

Do you agree that evil is not extant?

You didn't answer my question.

Not God. He created good.

That's why I asked you if you know what it means that evil is not extant?

Evil doesn't exist, only good exists. Evil is the absence of good. So He didn't fuck up. We did.

So who is, is what I asked. Don't you know?

Good Lord, you are slow. I told you that pages ago. We are.

So you and I are responsible for that deformed baby?

Don't be silly.

You don't believe in God because deformed babies exist?

 

[Taz]

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

Adam and Eve were created perfect in every way. But they CHOSE to sin. They could have have chosen not to, but they didn't. Regardless, it was still their choice. All they had to do was obey one simple command. Don't eat that apple. But they did it anyway. There is also the fact that God knew they would sin before he even created them. Why would he do that? I don't claim to know, but God has a plan for us. Anyway, He is God. He can do anything he wants, as far as I'm concerned.

Speaking of which, why are you concerned about this? Do you even believe in God? If not, why are you obsessing over this? That's an indication of a serious mental disorder. You should seek professional help. If you DO believe in God, you seem to think that you know better than the one who created you. That's just bat shit crazy. Forget the professional help. Ask them to lock you up and throw away the key.

C'mon brah, you put a naked guy in Eden with a hot, naked chick, and then punish him for getting it on? That's really, really, really gay.

That's not what happened. I've explained it to you like a hundred times.

I'm going by what the bible says. Not sure what book you're going by.

Why would you go by something you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe?

I'm trying to find something coherent between what the bible says and what people say it means, it's all very fascinating.

 

[GreatestIam]

yes


Competent to believers

incompetent to non-believers

Which is delusional?

Regards
DL

Both?

Neither?

I really don't care.

but I am tired of both trying to push their opinions on the other.

Why?

Do you think that the fact that religions promote homophobia and misogyny as well as the love of a genocidal son murdering prick of a God might have people going against such evil beliefs for good reasons?

Or should that evil be ignored by good people?

Regards
DL

Not a big fan of God, I see.

I like God. Just not the Abrahamic one.

Why do you think anyone should like a genocidal son murdering God?

Regards
DL

 

[Taz]

You didn't answer my question.

Not God. He created good.

That's why I asked you if you know what it means that evil is not extant?

Evil doesn't exist, only good exists. Evil is the absence of good. So He didn't fuck up. We did.

So who is, is what I asked. Don't you know?

Good Lord, you are slow. I told you that pages ago. We are.

So you and I are responsible for that deformed baby?

Don't be silly.

You don't believe in God because deformed babies exist?

I'm trying to figure out why a god would even make deformed babies. So, if not my fault, then whose fault?

 

[ding]

That seems to be your go to response, Taz.

C'mon, you don't have a real answer for why you think there can be only one creator? That's YOUR go to answer, nonsense?

I believe that God is existence itself. There is only one existence.

You are convinced that all of his is silly so you put forth silly beliefs. Such as you don't believe there are any so you argue that there are many. See?

Someone yesterday was arguing with me about multiverses. They couldn't imagine the cosmos go on forever. Infinitely. That was incomprehendable. But ask them if god is infinite and eternal they have no problem believing that.

Multiverses do not mean they are contiguous or infinite.

Besides no matter how one cuts it each of those multiverses had a beginning that was controlled by rules. Rules which existed before the inflation of each universe. Rules that no one knows where they come from. So no matter how you slice it there will always be the first cause conundrum, and the only solution to that is something that is eternal and unchanging.

possibly there are no rules and our universe is just another throw of the dice.

Nope. Inflation theory says otherwise. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[GreatestIam]

Semi-competent until he stops fucking up.

He's not the one fucking up. We are.

Who fucked up there?

Do you know what it means that evil is not extant?

Do you agree that evil is not extant?

What is the source of this evil you see?

Regards
DL

The absence of good.

Do you not know what extant means?

If good is absent, then one cannot call something evil as there is nothing good to compare it to.

How would you know that what you were looking at was evil?

Without a reference point, you could not label something as evil?

That is why the sages called it the tree of knowledge of good and evil. One cannot know one without the other.

Thanks for your simplistic reply though. It shows your mindset.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

Not God. He created good.

That's why I asked you if you know what it means that evil is not extant?

Evil doesn't exist, only good exists. Evil is the absence of good. So He didn't fuck up. We did.

So who is, is what I asked. Don't you know?

Good Lord, you are slow. I told you that pages ago. We are.

So you and I are responsible for that deformed baby?

Don't be silly.

You don't believe in God because deformed babies exist?

I'm trying to figure out why a god would even make deformed babies. So, if not my fault, then whose fault?

While you are pondering all the things you believe God should have differently do you ever take a minute to think about what He got right?

 

[ding]

yes


Competent to believers

incompetent to non-believers

Which is delusional?

Regards
DL

Both?

Neither?

I really don't care.

but I am tired of both trying to push their opinions on the other.

Why?

Do you think that the fact that religions promote homophobia and misogyny as well as the love of a genocidal son murdering prick of a God might have people going against such evil beliefs for good reasons?

Or should that evil be ignored by good people?

Regards
DL

Not a big fan of God, I see.

I like God. Just not the Abrahamic one.

Why do you think anyone should like a genocidal son murdering God?

Regards
DL

So why don't you tell me about your God.

 

[ding]

Adam and Eve were created perfect in every way. But they CHOSE to sin. They could have have chosen not to, but they didn't. Regardless, it was still their choice. All they had to do was obey one simple command. Don't eat that apple. But they did it anyway. There is also the fact that God knew they would sin before he even created them. Why would he do that? I don't claim to know, but God has a plan for us. Anyway, He is God. He can do anything he wants, as far as I'm concerned.

Speaking of which, why are you concerned about this? Do you even believe in God? If not, why are you obsessing over this? That's an indication of a serious mental disorder. You should seek professional help. If you DO believe in God, you seem to think that you know better than the one who created you. That's just bat shit crazy. Forget the professional help. Ask them to lock you up and throw away the key.

C'mon brah, you put a naked guy in Eden with a hot, naked chick, and then punish him for getting it on? That's really, really, really gay.

That's not what happened. I've explained it to you like a hundred times.

I'm going by what the bible says. Not sure what book you're going by.

Why would you go by something you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe?

I'm trying to find something coherent between what the bible says and what people say it means, it's all very fascinating.

No, you're not. Be honest. Stop being a pussy.

 

[GreatestIam]

The common thread here is that all those problems are through the Christian bastardization of The Judaic teachings/ concepts/precepts.
They don't become fails or confused when using the original understanding/descriptions.

I agree.

Note how Christians see a fall in Eden while Jews see man's elevation.

Christians got the beginning wrong so it is not surprising that they would get most of scriptures wrong.

Regards
DL

And yet what this Christian saw was the self evident truth that man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong, he rationalizes that he did not violate it. And that man is the only animal capable of knowledge of good and evil. No other creature has this concept. Sure animals can have empathy, but not like man. Animals function on impulse and instinct. Man functions on these too, but in man's case he has the unique ability to override his impulses and instinct for the sake of good. That is free will. It's a choice. Everything is choice.

Genesis isn't implying that had Adam and Eve never committed the original sin, we would live in paradise forever. Genesis is saying that man has the capacity to do good and evil. So then the question begs why did God create such a world. I believe that that is an artifact of life. In other words, I don't believe God had a choice. It is part and parcel of the extant nature of good. I know people will howl that I said God had no choice but the reality is there are things God can't do. For instance, God can't oppose Himself; He can't go against His own nature.

So there are two very interesting things which come out of free will. One is that evil has the effect of making good better. It's like salt and sugar. Salt makes sugar taste sweeter. We are told elsewhere that He uses all things for the good of those who love Him. Among other things the Jews discovered is that there is meaning in suffering. 07 Judaism

The other interesting thing is that good has no meaning unless there is evil. In other words, it is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

In closing, man prefers good over evil. We don't do evil for evil's sake. We do evil for the sake of our own good and when we do, we rationalize that we didn't do evil. But from these acts, goodness will arise and we will be stronger for it. It is a self compensating feature whose sole purpose is to propel consciousness to the next rung in the anthropological ladder.

Now go fuck yourself.

To prefer good over evil, man must have the knowledge of good and evil.

Regards
DL

Evil is nothing more than the absence of good. Evil does not exist on it's own. It is the absence of something else, in this case good. Just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light.

Man does prefer good over evil. He doesn't need to experience evil to know that he prefers good over evil. What he needs to do is stop rationalizing that when he does evil he is doing good.

Read my last to you and stop using simplistic and rather stupid thinking that you have picked up elsewhere.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

He's not the one fucking up. We are.

Who fucked up there?

Do you know what it means that evil is not extant?

Do you agree that evil is not extant?

What is the source of this evil you see?

Regards
DL

The absence of good.

Do you not know what extant means?

If good is absent, then one cannot call something evil as there is nothing good to compare it to.

How would you know that what you were looking at was evil?

Without a reference point, you could not label something as evil?

That is why the sages called it the tree of knowledge of good and evil. One cannot know one without the other.

Thanks for your simplistic reply though. It shows your mindset.

Regards
DL

I have this mindset because you act like a condescending asshole.

Yes, evil makes good taste sweeter, but that is not why it exists. It exists because men who do it are absent of good when they do it. God has no part in it. What He created was good.

 

[ding]

The common thread here is that all those problems are through the Christian bastardization of The Judaic teachings/ concepts/precepts.
They don't become fails or confused when using the original understanding/descriptions.

I agree.

Note how Christians see a fall in Eden while Jews see man's elevation.

Christians got the beginning wrong so it is not surprising that they would get most of scriptures wrong.

Regards
DL

And yet what this Christian saw was the self evident truth that man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong, he rationalizes that he did not violate it. And that man is the only animal capable of knowledge of good and evil. No other creature has this concept. Sure animals can have empathy, but not like man. Animals function on impulse and instinct. Man functions on these too, but in man's case he has the unique ability to override his impulses and instinct for the sake of good. That is free will. It's a choice. Everything is choice.

Genesis isn't implying that had Adam and Eve never committed the original sin, we would live in paradise forever. Genesis is saying that man has the capacity to do good and evil. So then the question begs why did God create such a world. I believe that that is an artifact of life. In other words, I don't believe God had a choice. It is part and parcel of the extant nature of good. I know people will howl that I said God had no choice but the reality is there are things God can't do. For instance, God can't oppose Himself; He can't go against His own nature.

So there are two very interesting things which come out of free will. One is that evil has the effect of making good better. It's like salt and sugar. Salt makes sugar taste sweeter. We are told elsewhere that He uses all things for the good of those who love Him. Among other things the Jews discovered is that there is meaning in suffering. 07 Judaism

The other interesting thing is that good has no meaning unless there is evil. In other words, it is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

In closing, man prefers good over evil. We don't do evil for evil's sake. We do evil for the sake of our own good and when we do, we rationalize that we didn't do evil. But from these acts, goodness will arise and we will be stronger for it. It is a self compensating feature whose sole purpose is to propel consciousness to the next rung in the anthropological ladder.

Now go fuck yourself.

To prefer good over evil, man must have the knowledge of good and evil.

Regards
DL

Evil is nothing more than the absence of good. Evil does not exist on it's own. It is the absence of something else, in this case good. Just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light.

Man does prefer good over evil. He doesn't need to experience evil to know that he prefers good over evil. What he needs to do is stop rationalizing that when he does evil he is doing good.

Read my last to you and stop using simplistic and rather stupid thinking that you have picked up elsewhere.

Regards
DL

Read my last post to see what I think about you.

 

[GreatestIam]

`
`
On the cosmic scale, if a Supreme Divinity does exist (which I believe) then even trying to comprehend its existence, is far beyond our 3D humanity to understand. This question then, becomes moot.

Cop out. So says scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL

You are quoting Christians who are idol worshipers?

That is what you believe, right?

So why would you quote someone who was an idol worshiper?

I also quote non-idol worshipers.

I quote whoever I wish, and why not, if it serves my purpose?

Regards
DL

What is your purpose?

To grow in knowledge and wisdom.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

`
`
On the cosmic scale, if a Supreme Divinity does exist (which I believe) then even trying to comprehend its existence, is far beyond our 3D humanity to understand. This question then, becomes moot.

Cop out. So says scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL

You are quoting Christians who are idol worshipers?

That is what you believe, right?

So why would you quote someone who was an idol worshiper?

I also quote non-idol worshipers.

I quote whoever I wish, and why not, if it serves my purpose?

Regards
DL

What is your purpose?

To grow in knowledge and wisdom.

Regards
DL

Which can be accomplished by doing good.

It is our choice that we don't.

 

[GreatestIam]

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

Adam and Eve were created perfect in every way. But they CHOSE to sin. They could have have chosen not to, but they didn't. Regardless, it was still their choice. All they had to do was obey one simple command. Don't eat that apple. But they did it anyway. There is also the fact that God knew they would sin before he even created them. Why would he do that? I don't claim to know, but God has a plan for us. Anyway, He is God. He can do anything he wants, as far as I'm concerned.

Speaking of which, why are you concerned about this? Do you even believe in God? If not, why are you obsessing over this? That's an indication of a serious mental disorder. You should seek professional help. If you DO believe in God, you seem to think that you know better than the one who created you. That's just bat shit crazy. Forget the professional help. Ask them to lock you up and throw away the key.

So if A & E were perfect, and perfect chooses to sin, is that why your perfect God decided to sin when he started killing us instead of curing us?

A & E, according to scriptures, had their mental eyes closed and did not have the moral sense that knowledge of good and evil give.

How is being mentally blind add up to perfection to you?

Would you be more perfect without your moral sense?

If you want to chat, stop your cheep and childish bullying tactics.

Regards
DL

Let me ask you those same questions. What are your answers?

Reciprocity is fair play.

You answer mine and I will reciprocate.

Regards
DL

You didn't ask those questions of me. You asked someone else.

That makes me first. Are you afraid to answer your own questions?

Not at all but my reply stands. Give if you expect to receive.

So far you have just wasted my time so I loathe to give more of it.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

Adam and Eve were created perfect in every way. But they CHOSE to sin. They could have have chosen not to, but they didn't. Regardless, it was still their choice. All they had to do was obey one simple command. Don't eat that apple. But they did it anyway. There is also the fact that God knew they would sin before he even created them. Why would he do that? I don't claim to know, but God has a plan for us. Anyway, He is God. He can do anything he wants, as far as I'm concerned.

Speaking of which, why are you concerned about this? Do you even believe in God? If not, why are you obsessing over this? That's an indication of a serious mental disorder. You should seek professional help. If you DO believe in God, you seem to think that you know better than the one who created you. That's just bat shit crazy. Forget the professional help. Ask them to lock you up and throw away the key.

So if A & E were perfect, and perfect chooses to sin, is that why your perfect God decided to sin when he started killing us instead of curing us?

A & E, according to scriptures, had their mental eyes closed and did not have the moral sense that knowledge of good and evil give.

How is being mentally blind add up to perfection to you?

Would you be more perfect without your moral sense?

If you want to chat, stop your cheep and childish bullying tactics.

Regards
DL

Let me ask you those same questions. What are your answers?

Reciprocity is fair play.

You answer mine and I will reciprocate.

Regards
DL

You didn't ask those questions of me. You asked someone else.

That makes me first. Are you afraid to answer your own questions?

Not at all but my reply stands. Give if you expect to receive.

So far you have just wasted my time so I loathe to give more of it.

Regards
DL

You'd have to show me where I wasn't.

I have wasted your time? You give me too much control over your life.

Sounds like you have an external locus of control.

 

[GreatestIam]

Which is delusional?

Regards
DL

Both?

Neither?

I really don't care.

but I am tired of both trying to push their opinions on the other.

Why?

Do you think that the fact that religions promote homophobia and misogyny as well as the love of a genocidal son murdering prick of a God might have people going against such evil beliefs for good reasons?

Or should that evil be ignored by good people?

Regards
DL

Not a big fan of God, I see.

I like God. Just not the Abrahamic one.

Why do you think anyone should like a genocidal son murdering God?

Regards
DL

So why don't you tell me about your God.

Your view of God is whatever your mind has concocted. So is mine.

I am a Gnostic Christian.

You are speaking to the God I know when you speak to me. What would you like to know?

Regards
DL

 

[Taz]

C'mon, you don't have a real answer for why you think there can be only one creator? That's YOUR go to answer, nonsense?

I believe that God is existence itself. There is only one existence.

You are convinced that all of his is silly so you put forth silly beliefs. Such as you don't believe there are any so you argue that there are many. See?

Someone yesterday was arguing with me about multiverses. They couldn't imagine the cosmos go on forever. Infinitely. That was incomprehendable. But ask them if god is infinite and eternal they have no problem believing that.

Multiverses do not mean they are contiguous or infinite.

Besides no matter how one cuts it each of those multiverses had a beginning that was controlled by rules. Rules which existed before the inflation of each universe. Rules that no one knows where they come from. So no matter how you slice it there will always be the first cause conundrum, and the only solution to that is something that is eternal and unchanging.

possibly there are no rules and our universe is just another throw of the dice.

Nope. Inflation theory says otherwise. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

Ya, because man knows everything there is to know about that and made a law. Sheesh you're simple.

 

[Taz]

So who is, is what I asked. Don't you know?

Good Lord, you are slow. I told you that pages ago. We are.

So you and I are responsible for that deformed baby?

Don't be silly.

You don't believe in God because deformed babies exist?

I'm trying to figure out why a god would even make deformed babies. So, if not my fault, then whose fault?

While you are pondering all the things you believe God should have differently do you ever take a minute to think about what He got right?

So you're saying that god is responsible for deformed babies if, as you say, he got some stuff right?

 

[ding]

Both?

Neither?

I really don't care.

but I am tired of both trying to push their opinions on the other.

Why?

Do you think that the fact that religions promote homophobia and misogyny as well as the love of a genocidal son murdering prick of a God might have people going against such evil beliefs for good reasons?

Or should that evil be ignored by good people?

Regards
DL

Not a big fan of God, I see.

I like God. Just not the Abrahamic one.

Why do you think anyone should like a genocidal son murdering God?

Regards
DL

So why don't you tell me about your God.

Your view of God is whatever your mind has concocted. So is mine.

I am a Gnostic Christian.

You are speaking to the God I know when you speak to me. What would you like to know?

Regards
DL

Why do you spend so much time discussing what you don't believe instead of discussing what you do believe?