Is education a right or a privilege?

[Oddball]

The fact is that although our education system SUCKS it at least provides a decent education to those who choose to get educated. I do still think my idea for vocational training has some merrit.

So, after 50 years of the federal Department of Education, is that supposed to be some kind of evidence of success??

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

That's negative waves, man.

My bad.

 

[Care4all]

FYI....


Transcendental Ideas: Education
Background for the State of Education in New England: Post-Revolutionary War to Mid-19th Century

Meg Brulatour, Virginia Commonwealth University

Thomas Jefferson is rightly given much credit for emphasizing the importance of education in a democracy. He believed education for all to be a crucial part of the success of the "experiment" undertaken in 1776. He had faith in the "common man" and his ability to elect wise and virtuous leaders if that man were educated to do so. With this caveat in mind, Jefferson wrote the Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge, the Bill for Establishing a Public Library, and the Bill for Establishment of a System of Public Education, among others (Tozer, Violas, and Senese, School and Society, 30-31).

Jefferson saw the structure of education in four levels: elementary schools, grammar schools, universities, and life-long learning. He proposed dividing the states into small districts or wards. Along with supervising and supporting the schools, the individual wards would be responsible for the roads, police, elections, care of the poor, and some small judicial matters (31).

Elementary school was available to "all free children, male and female." The three-year curriculum included Grecian, Roman, English and American history as well as reading, writing and arithmetic, and would likely serve as the extent of formal education for the bulk of the population. Grammar schools were boarding schools for boys only, and were preparatory to university entrance. Except for a limited number of ward scholarships, students were required to pay tuition. The six-year curriculum included Greek, Latin, and English grammar, advanced arithmetic, geometry, navigation, and geography. Jefferson expected future leaders and teachers to come from this crop of students. University requirements were limited to a proficiency in Latin and Greek—a graduate had to be able to read and understand the classics with ease; although scientific studies were encouraged students were free to attend any class and "listen to whatever he thinks may improve the condition of his mind" (32-34).


continued here= Ideas--Education--History

sadly, women and blacks were not included in his plan other than the 3 yrs, i suppose because we couldn't work or vote...?

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

The government motto: When all else fails, throw more money at the problem.

Makes a person want wake the kids up early in the morning, so that they can get to the government donut factory early.

 

[Varth Dader]

Here's something else to wrap one's head around:

Education in neither a right nor a privilege. it is an obligation and duty that people who make the decision to have children take on.

Little wonder that people who've had big gubmint as their defacto nanny for 7 hours a day for 12+ years look upon it as a right.

A duty and an obligation that the government can monitor and enforce when parents fail at it?

 

[Oddball]

Like they don't already have enough to fail to monitor??

 

[goldcatt]

On an emotional level, I understand your point. From a legal standpoint, that dog won't hunt.

Using your argument, I can state X is of national interest, and call on the feds to pay and dictation for such. Wait, that is what many in Washington do already.

So much for agreeing.

Agreement is overrated.

Outside of "makeup sex," I agree.

There you go agreeing again.

Seriously, how do you propose a representative Republic function without an educated populace? How would our military function without educated personnel? Our economy? Our infrastructure? Trade and foreign relations?
The Framers knew this, and they knew their history. The greatest civilizations in the world have all been, for their time, highly sophisticated and literate. Somehow I doubt they would be against a national framework of schools with at least a set of minimum guidelines at the Federal level.

 

[chanel]

I haven't read this whole thread through but are people suggesting that higher ed is now a right and responsibility of govt? Will that be the next financial disaster? Free college for all?

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Agreement is overrated.

Outside of "makeup sex," I agree.

There you go agreeing again.

Seriously, how do you propose a representative Republic function without an educated populace? How would our military function without educated personnel? Our economy? Our infrastructure? Trade and foreign relations?
The Framers knew this, and they knew their history. The greatest civilizations in the world have all been, for their time, highly sophisticated and literate. Somehow I doubt they would be against a national framework of schools with at least a set of minimum guidelines at the Federal level.

I am all for edjumahkayshun. I am against the feds being involved in it. As far as I am concerned, edjumahkayshun is an X Amendment issue.

I believe in personal responsibility and accountability. If a person has kids and has the mental faculties to teach them, they need to be teaching their own kids, instead of shipping them off to the government donut factory.

If a person is incapable of teaching their child, that is different. There are other means of educating, without involving the feds. More government is not the answer.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

I haven't read this whole thread through but are people suggesting that higher ed is now a right and responsibility of govt? Will that be the next financial disaster? Free college for all?

There are several making the claim that all education is a right. And by God, you will pay for all the big people wannabes.

 

[Varth Dader]

Like they don't already have enough to fail to monitor??

Well one might think that for something as important as education, monitoring is very important.

 

[goldcatt]

Outside of "makeup sex," I agree.

There you go agreeing again.

Seriously, how do you propose a representative Republic function without an educated populace? How would our military function without educated personnel? Our economy? Our infrastructure? Trade and foreign relations?
The Framers knew this, and they knew their history. The greatest civilizations in the world have all been, for their time, highly sophisticated and literate. Somehow I doubt they would be against a national framework of schools with at least a set of minimum guidelines at the Federal level.

I am all for edjumahkayshun. I am against the feds being involved in it. As far as I am concerned, edjumahkayshun is an X Amendment issue.

I believe in personal responsibility and accountability. If a person has kids and has the mental faculties to teach them, they need to be teaching their own kids, instead of shipping them off to the government donut factory.

If a person is incapable of teaching their child, that is different. There are other means of educating, without involving the feds. More government is not the answer.

So you would be fine children being schooled at home or in private schools if at all? Or, conversely, you're OK with giving over education to the State government for them to control - as though the level matters?
I'm honestly not getting what you're saying here.

 

[Douger]

You taking about in the Unknighted States of Mpyre ?

NEITHER.
It's a curse.

You spend 12 years being lied to by people who are unemployable.

Those who can. DO.
Those who can not. Teach.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

There you go agreeing again.

Seriously, how do you propose a representative Republic function without an educated populace? How would our military function without educated personnel? Our economy? Our infrastructure? Trade and foreign relations?
The Framers knew this, and they knew their history. The greatest civilizations in the world have all been, for their time, highly sophisticated and literate. Somehow I doubt they would be against a national framework of schools with at least a set of minimum guidelines at the Federal level.

I am all for edjumahkayshun. I am against the feds being involved in it. As far as I am concerned, edjumahkayshun is an X Amendment issue.

I believe in personal responsibility and accountability. If a person has kids and has the mental faculties to teach them, they need to be teaching their own kids, instead of shipping them off to the government donut factory.

If a person is incapable of teaching their child, that is different. There are other means of educating, without involving the feds. More government is not the answer.

So you would be fine children being schooled at home or in private schools if at all? Or, conversely, you're OK with giving over education to the State government for them to control - as though the level matters?
I'm honestly not getting what you're saying here.

As if level matters? I can't believe you just said that to me gold. Yes, level matters when it comes to the Constitution. I don't believe that funding and dictating education is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. As such, I believe the issue falls under the auspices of the X Amendment.

I am all for home schooling or private school. I am all for local parents forming small groups, and teaching their children together. I am all for kids attending schools at their respective place of worship, when available.

You want the same government that lies, cheats, and steals from us, that refuses to not spend more than they take in, to have care, custody, and control of your precious big people wannabes for 8 hrs a day, teaching them all the one mouth fits all donut factory method?

 

[chanel]

The system is corrupt I believe strongly in providing every child a free education. But with that said, not every child is college material. And the cuckoos believe that teaching Shakesoeare to kids who can't read will make them more productive members of society. I like the vocational idea that someone posted. We will be needing people in all different trades if this economy is to rebound. But I don't see it happening.Makes too much sense.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

The system is corrupt I believe strongly in providing every child a free education. But with that said, not every child is college material. And the cuckoos believe that teaching Shakesoeare to kids who can't read will make them more productive members of society. I like the vocational idea that someone posted. We will be needing people in all different trades if this economy is to rebound. But I don't see it happening.Makes too much sense.

No such thing as free, especially when it comes to government. I don't have kids and still have to pay for the education of other peoples kids. I don't like it but I understand that that is how it is on a local level. My vote doesn't always win. I detest the federal government taking money from me, to pay for other kids etc.

 

[goldcatt]

I am all for edjumahkayshun. I am against the feds being involved in it. As far as I am concerned, edjumahkayshun is an X Amendment issue.

I believe in personal responsibility and accountability. If a person has kids and has the mental faculties to teach them, they need to be teaching their own kids, instead of shipping them off to the government donut factory.

If a person is incapable of teaching their child, that is different. There are other means of educating, without involving the feds. More government is not the answer.

So you would be fine children being schooled at home or in private schools if at all? Or, conversely, you're OK with giving over education to the State government for them to control - as though the level matters?
I'm honestly not getting what you're saying here.

As if level matters? I can't believe you just said that to me gold. Yes, level matters when it comes to the Constitution. I don't believe that funding and dictating education is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. As such, I believe the issue falls under the auspices of the X Amendment.

I am all for home schooling or private school. I am all for local parents forming small groups, and teaching their children together. I am all for kids attending schools at their respective place of worship, when available.

You want the same government that lies, cheats, and steals from us, that refuses to not spend more than they take in, to have care, custody, and control of your precious big people wannabes for 8 hrs a day, teaching them all the one mouth fits all donut factory method?

Government is government, BGG. Frankly, where I live right now I trust the Feds far more than the corrupt slimepuppies in Harrisburg. At least in DC, somebody's watching them.
And no, I don't believe there is anything prohibiting the Federal government from setting standards to ensure all its citizens (who are able) acheive a certain level of literacy, of computational skills, of history and civics and science. Call it common defense, call it commerce, call it whatever you like - the majority of the enumerated powers of the Federal government rely on an educated populace for their strength.
We are also not in a largely agrarian late-18th Century society anymore with mostly local economies. The education level in one State will affect others. So if, for example, North Dakota were to decide not to offer public schools or require compulsory education anymore, the effect won't only be felt in North Dakota. It will be felt wherever people from that environment relocate or attempt to do business.
Not every family is lucky enough to have a homemaker with the time and ability to teach the kids at home, nor can most families afford private schooling. If the government wants a modern military, a modern economy, etc. it needs to offer the services to allow people to participate. And I would have no problems with the States doing the majority of it, but there would have to be some enforceable standard of achievement that is uniform to avoid one or more States' race to the bottom affecting the rest.
OK, that's a novel. Sorry!

 

[chanel]

Its too late. Public school is an entitlement that everyone takes for granted. I pay high school taxes and pay for private school. But too few parents would be willing to pay.We'd have rugrats begging in the streets like third world countries. Schools provide two meals a day because their folks won't even feed them. Schools have become nannies out of necessity. Someone has to keep them safe for at least 7 hours a day.

There are a zillion things I don't like seeing my tax money go to but education is not one. Welcome to America.

 

[goldcatt]

Its too late. Public school is an entitlement that everyone takes for granted. I pay high school taxes and pay for private school. But too few parents would be willing to pay.We'd have rugrats begging in the streets like third world countries. Schools provide two meals a day because their folks won't even feed them. Schools have become nannies out of necessity. Someone has to keep them safe for at least 7 hours a day.

There are a zillion things I don't like seeing my tax money go to but education is not one. Welcome to America.

Some kids also eat two meals a day in school because their families can't feed them. In that case, I won't begrudge a kid breakfast.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

So you would be fine children being schooled at home or in private schools if at all? Or, conversely, you're OK with giving over education to the State government for them to control - as though the level matters?
I'm honestly not getting what you're saying here.

As if level matters? I can't believe you just said that to me gold. Yes, level matters when it comes to the Constitution. I don't believe that funding and dictating education is one of the enumerated powers of Congress. As such, I believe the issue falls under the auspices of the X Amendment.

I am all for home schooling or private school. I am all for local parents forming small groups, and teaching their children together. I am all for kids attending schools at their respective place of worship, when available.

You want the same government that lies, cheats, and steals from us, that refuses to not spend more than they take in, to have care, custody, and control of your precious big people wannabes for 8 hrs a day, teaching them all the one mouth fits all donut factory method?

Government is government, BGG. Frankly, where I live right now I trust the Feds far more than the corrupt slimepuppies in Harrisburg. At least in DC, somebody's watching them.
And no, I don't believe there is anything prohibiting the Federal government from setting standards to ensure all its citizens (who are able) acheive a certain level of literacy, of computational skills, of history and civics and science. Call it common defense, call it commerce, call it whatever you like - the majority of the enumerated powers of the Federal government rely on an educated populace for their strength.
We are also not in a largely agrarian late-18th Century society anymore with mostly local economies. The education level in one State will affect others. So if, for example, North Dakota were to decide not to offer public schools or require compulsory education anymore, the effect won't only be felt in North Dakota. It will be felt wherever people from that environment relocate or attempt to do business.
Not every family is lucky enough to have a homemaker with the time and ability to teach the kids at home, nor can most families afford private schooling. If the government wants a modern military, a modern economy, etc. it needs to offer the services to allow people to participate. And I would have no problems with the States doing the majority of it, but there would have to be some enforceable standard of achievement that is uniform to avoid one or more States' race to the bottom affecting the rest.
OK, that's a novel. Sorry!

That is more than you usually opine to me. lol Nothing wrong with that. Your retort amounts to sidestepping and rationalization gold. You rationalized your jump right over the enumerated powers aspect and you and I both know it. Come on. You can do better than that.

When it comes to the governance of this Republic, filing an emotional brief is not going to get it done in BGG court.