Is America the greatest country in the world?

[oldernwiser]

Perhaps. But I can remember a time in college when a communist leader (Russian) was invited to speak at my university. (I covered the event as a reporter so was paying special attention to both the speaker and the audience reaction to him.) This was a very conservative, anti-communist part of the country at that time--still is actually--but the speaker was received very cordially--no boos, no cat calls. In the question and answer period at the end of the speech, thoughtful questions were asked and thoughtful answers were given by the speaker.

Despite this being a very attractive, intelligent, and persuasive gentleman, I don't think the speaker changed a single opinion about communism. It was still viewed as an unworkable system by all the students.

I sometimes wonder if most students now even know why communisim is a dangerous thing, and why it is unworkable within human nature. It sounds so noble, so righteous, so virtuous. And yet it has been a scourge and a creator of mass poverty everywhere it has been tried.

But is the the "Marxist" mentality of a virtue in everybody sharing in everything according to their needs that has created the current breakdown in American culture? Or do others see a breakdown? Is the entitlement mentality the core of the problem here? Or something else? These days students are more apt to protest or even riot in objection to somebody speaking at their university if they strongly disagree with that person.

Why the difference between the two eras?

I wasn't trying to set Communism (or any other ideology) itself on any pedestal. The point was that McCarthy showed us that it was acceptable to paint any radical new idea with a dismissive brush without ever contemplating the idea's application to the problem set. From that point on, if a person appeared to have communist leanings, his entire line of reasoning was branded communist and dropped without a second thought.

Over the years, we have refined that anti-discussion method so that we have different brushes, but it amounts to the same thing. We, who once all pulled in the same direction, are now going our own separate ways. The only opinions that count are the ones that come from our own way of thinking, and all else is garbage.

I tend to see our own society as fragmented.

I didn't think you were selling Communism or setting it on a pedestal. I think I got what you were saying and I appreciate the point of view. I'm just quarreling with it a bit, while leaving the possibility of my being persuaded differently open.

Going all the way back to Pearl Harbor, the USA was attacked by Japan and thereby dragged into WWII. But the attack itself occurred during the very week that Japanese diplomats were meeting with FDR to work out differences between the two countries. And in the shock and anger at the attack, the administration, constitutionally charged to provide the national defense, had to be concerned about what spies and saboteurs had been installed in the USA by Japan. And what loyalties Japanese Americans might have to their mother country. So thousands of Japanese were rounded up and placed in interrment camps while all that was sorted out.

Justifiable? No, not in hindsight. It was a cruel process for most. A few were happy to go out of fear of retaliation of their American neighbors. But was it reasonable? At the time, we have to at least admit that it would seem so to an administration that had not experienced such an attack. There was a reason over and above blatant racism for the policy.

And we learned from it. When we were attacked by al Qaida on 9/11/2001, we didn't round up and inter a lot of the Arabs in the country. But without the lessons of Pearl Harbor, we might very well have seen a justification to do that.

The next lesson learned from WWII, was the expansion of the Soviet empire following the close of WWII. And being smarter and wiser, we knew full well that the 'empire' intended to eventually include us in that expansion. Or at least obliterate us as a world power. So ally became cold war enemy. But what spies and saboteurs had the 'empire' established in the USA? A justification of McCarthyism? No. A reason for it over and above ideological prejudices, yes.

And purely because so many Americans saw the injjustices of the Japanese interrment camps and the worst of McCarthyism, we didn't repeat those injustices following 9/11.

And that is why I don't see McCarthyism as the culprit in changing the culture.

That's mostly my point, though. There is a "justification" for the things we do - mostly created in hindsight. It's logic that tries to cover the initial emotion. But, it's the underlying emotion that is, in itself, the problem.

As far as the Japanese were concerned in WWII, there was no other motive for the internment camps than cultural racism. We were fighting a war on a different front and had accepted as many or more German ex-pats into our country who did not share the same fate.

Fear of saboteurs and spies is the justification for McCarthyism - and I accept that logic. But, it's the emotional content that was also released that still plagues us today.

From those examples you gave, we have learned that internment camps and kangaroo courts in Congress are bad things. But, at the same time, cultural racism still exists. And we received a new tool to dismiss even more people who are different from "us" from Uncle Joe himself.

 

[there4eyeM]

"Some of our wars were ill-advised..."

What a laughable euphemism!

The most vociferous criticism from such an intellect can only be considered as flattery.

 

[Foxfyre]

I wasn't trying to set Communism (or any other ideology) itself on any pedestal. The point was that McCarthy showed us that it was acceptable to paint any radical new idea with a dismissive brush without ever contemplating the idea's application to the problem set. From that point on, if a person appeared to have communist leanings, his entire line of reasoning was branded communist and dropped without a second thought.

Over the years, we have refined that anti-discussion method so that we have different brushes, but it amounts to the same thing. We, who once all pulled in the same direction, are now going our own separate ways. The only opinions that count are the ones that come from our own way of thinking, and all else is garbage.

I tend to see our own society as fragmented.

I didn't think you were selling Communism or setting it on a pedestal. I think I got what you were saying and I appreciate the point of view. I'm just quarreling with it a bit, while leaving the possibility of my being persuaded differently open.

Going all the way back to Pearl Harbor, the USA was attacked by Japan and thereby dragged into WWII. But the attack itself occurred during the very week that Japanese diplomats were meeting with FDR to work out differences between the two countries. And in the shock and anger at the attack, the administration, constitutionally charged to provide the national defense, had to be concerned about what spies and saboteurs had been installed in the USA by Japan. And what loyalties Japanese Americans might have to their mother country. So thousands of Japanese were rounded up and placed in interrment camps while all that was sorted out.

Justifiable? No, not in hindsight. It was a cruel process for most. A few were happy to go out of fear of retaliation of their American neighbors. But was it reasonable? At the time, we have to at least admit that it would seem so to an administration that had not experienced such an attack. There was a reason over and above blatant racism for the policy.

And we learned from it. When we were attacked by al Qaida on 9/11/2001, we didn't round up and inter a lot of the Arabs in the country. But without the lessons of Pearl Harbor, we might very well have seen a justification to do that.

The next lesson learned from WWII, was the expansion of the Soviet empire following the close of WWII. And being smarter and wiser, we knew full well that the 'empire' intended to eventually include us in that expansion. Or at least obliterate us as a world power. So ally became cold war enemy. But what spies and saboteurs had the 'empire' established in the USA? A justification of McCarthyism? No. A reason for it over and above ideological prejudices, yes.

And purely because so many Americans saw the injjustices of the Japanese interrment camps and the worst of McCarthyism, we didn't repeat those injustices following 9/11.

And that is why I don't see McCarthyism as the culprit in changing the culture.

That's mostly my point, though. There is a "justification" for the things we do - mostly created in hindsight. It's logic that tries to cover the initial emotion. But, it's the underlying emotion that is, in itself, the problem.

As far as the Japanese were concerned in WWII, there was no other motive for the internment camps than cultural racism. We were fighting a war on a different front and had accepted as many or more German ex-pats into our country who did not share the same fate.

Fear of saboteurs and spies is the justification for McCarthyism - and I accept that logic. But, it's the emotional content that was also released that still plagues us today.

From those examples you gave, we have learned that internment camps and kangaroo courts in Congress are bad things. But, at the same time, cultural racism still exists. And we received a new tool to dismiss even more people who are different from "us" from Uncle Joe himself.

I strongly disagree that the Japanese interment camps were motivated by cultural racism. If you accept the rationale that Communist dictatorships would have motive to place moles, spies, and saboteurs among us, then surely we can give benefit of the doubt to an Administration who would see Japan having motive to place moles, spies, and saboteurs among us as well as concern that the Japanese Americans themselves would feel compelled to side with their motherland. It was only after the fact that we learned that they had no such compulsion.

Understanding motives as not being evil is not the same thing as condoning all actions committed out of fear or concern.

But yes, we can see how we learned from that experience as well as learning from McCarthyism not to commit such injustices even when there could be a motive for doing so. And we have not done so since those times, at least as official policies of government.

So that brings us back to the drawing board as to what has changed and fragmented our culture that once was mostly cohesive and most shared the most important basic values.

You have accused McCarthyism. I have rejected that as explained.

Another has blamed Communism. That one might be edging closer to the basic cause though not imported from other places. I think it goes back to that "War on Poverty" concept that eventually came to be what some of us see as a "War on the Poor" but has nevertheless changed the culture in a dramatic way. (Yeah, I know Liability will disagree with me on that one. )

 

[Desperado]

What a pompous answer! And wrong in the trillion column too!

We have (had) a country with a Constitutionally limited central government and 50 sovereign states that were supposed to be incubators of ideas and ideals. How'd he miss that? That's what made us great.

The one nation on the planet set up to acknowledge and protect the rights of the individual.

So what happened to those ideals?

 

[Moonglow]

The rights of indiviuals have more protection today than in anytime of US history.
The first two hundred years the rights of the indivual were inforced for whites only.

 

[Foxfyre]

What a pompous answer! And wrong in the trillion column too!

We have (had) a country with a Constitutionally limited central government and 50 sovereign states that were supposed to be incubators of ideas and ideals. How'd he miss that? That's what made us great.

The one nation on the planet set up to acknowledge and protect the rights of the individual.

So what happened to those ideals?

CF is right that we are the one nation on the planet, in the entire history of the world in fact, set up to acknowledge and protect the rights of the individual. In ALL other governments on Earth, individual rights are assigned by the government. But the character in the OP did not deny any of that. He was focused on the ideals.

So those ideals are exactly what I see as the fundamental question suggested by the OP. What has fractured our unique American culture that had developed by shared ideals that some of us now see replaced by something else. I think that also is what the speaker in the OP was addressing.

 

[Moonglow]

The US is not going to be number one in every catagory, nor time. The greatness you speak of landed in our laps. After populating every state and new lands are not there for our taking we fing the US of A becoming overcome with the same problems that plagued many nations in the past.

The greatness you speak that was once America is still there, you just don't see it.

We became great through military objectives and taking away lands that belonged to other indiginious people.
That was our greatness. Every country has hard working people, smart people. What makes the US of A great is our laws, our society and our military.

people from all over the world want to come here for freedom, and that is a fact, jack!.

 

[there4eyeM]

We love our country, so it is great. It is great, so we love it.

Keep chanting.

 

[Unkotare]

I sometimes wonder if most students now even know why communisim is a dangerous thing, and why it is unworkable within human nature. It sounds so noble, so righteous, so virtuous.

I've never thought so. History, philosophy, and personal experience have proven me right.

 

[Unkotare]

The following is maybe the most honest three and a half minutes we have seen in any medium for some time now. I think it will be disturbing to those of us who love our country, who feel pride and emotion when we salute the flag or hear the National Anthem, but for many it will also have a ring of truth.

But it is a debate we need to have as Americans, as freedom loving people, as people who see the potential in what humankind can be.

Is the United States of America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? If so, can it be again? How?

I put this in the Tea Party forum because there was no other place for it. The Tea Party movement has consistently been focused on restoring America to its former greatness, prosperity, and best values.

If we could keep the discussion reasonably civil it would be much appreciated.

Kool. Can we wipe out the rest of the "red savages" and go nuke the shit out of some slant eyes now ?
I know ! How about buying a few million ******* to do the work murkins won't do and that meskins can't(legally)

What an ignorant fucking post.

What else do you expect from an ignorant fuck?

 

[Unkotare]

You are correct. Watching the rest of the episode clearly puts things in perspective that the Jeff Daniels character is not a Liberal. Or a Conservative.

Liability does not see that many policies of the Rightwing are indeed wars on poor people.

False.

NONE of the policies favored by Conservatives constitute a war on poor people. In fact, objectively, which Synth is not, it could be better argued that the effect of modern American liberalism is an attack on individual liberties the worst effect of which is dumped on "poorer" people.

Laughable.

How about Mandatory Minimums for drug offenders?

How about the disparity between sentences for crack vs cocaine?


These two hurt poor people at a much higher rate than rich people.

And don't try to tell me that millionaire Wall Streeters don't do drugs. It is well documented.

You have failed completely to prove your point.

 

[Unkotare]

Laughable.

How about Mandatory Minimums for drug offenders?

How about the disparity between sentences for crack vs cocaine?


These two hurt poor people at a much higher rate than rich people.

And don't try to tell me that millionaire Wall Streeters don't do drugs. It is well documented.

How nice of you to stereotype the poor as being drug users. I don't think the examples you give hurt poor people as much as they hurt STUPID people.

How nice of you to display your stupidity.

Most drug abusers who are imprisoned are poor.

Most drug users who are imprisoned are drug dealers, multiple-multiple offenders, and/or were charged with drug-related crimes while in the process of committing other crimes.

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay boys, civility and on topic please. Tbere are hundreds and hundreds of threads devoted to insulting each oher. I respectfully request that you do not do that here. Thank you very much.

And I will agree with Moonglow that our military power is the largest and most powerful in the world. But I don't think many will agree that it is that which makes us a great country.

I also agree that people want to come here for the freedom and opportunity that we offer. Those things do factor into into our greatness.

And I also agree with there4 that many of us do love our country. We want our children to learn and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, we salute the flag, we feel a lump in our throat when we sing or hear the National Anthem sung. Many of us will always put the national interest ahead of our own.

And there was a time in America that most Americans agreed on what the national interest was. Among others things that agreement has become fragmented and I suspect many of us will disagree on what make a nation great.

 

[Unkotare]

And I will agree with Moonglow that our military power is the largest and most powerful in the world. But I don't think many will agree that it is that which makes us a great country.
.

It's certainly part of it.

 

[there4eyeM]

"I sometimes wonder if most students now even know why communisim is a dangerous thing, and why it is unworkable within human nature. It sounds so noble, so righteous, so virtuous."

A feature it shares with democracy.

But even that should not be said in the context of this post, as 'communism' has not been defined. Change the last letters of the word from sm to ty and most problems with it disappear.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

The dude in the video said Great Britain had freedom. I don't buy that when they're putting someone one trial for what he said during a freaking soccer game. Also, Canada, who he mentioned, will literally thought police people into bankruptcy.

 

[there4eyeM]

'Patriot' Act. Airport harassment. N.D.A.A. Random police checks. ID cards. Marijuana prohibition.

Freedom?

 

[Indofred]

I voted, "No, but it could be.".
The US has massive resources that could be used to help the whole world in a wide variety of ways.
Mass education, aid to set up farming to keep hunger from the world and assistance to those in trouble from disaster.
And at a price that's likely to be a lot cheaper than war.

The US has the power to make the world it's friend - has it got the balls to do it?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I voted, "No, but it could be.".
The US has massive resources that could be used to help the whole world in a wide variety of ways.
Mass education, aid to set up farming to keep hunger from the world and assistance to those in trouble from disaster.
And at a price that's likely to be a lot cheaper than war.

The US has the power to make the world it's friend - has it got the balls to do it?

You'll like our balls.

 

[Indofred]

I voted, "No, but it could be.".
The US has massive resources that could be used to help the whole world in a wide variety of ways.
Mass education, aid to set up farming to keep hunger from the world and assistance to those in trouble from disaster.
And at a price that's likely to be a lot cheaper than war.

The US has the power to make the world it's friend - has it got the balls to do it?

You'll like our balls.

Thanks for the offer but I only like girls.