Is America the greatest country in the world?

[Spoonman]

The following is maybe the most honest three and a half minutes we have seen in any medium for some time now. I think it will be disturbing to those of us who love our country, who feel pride and emotion when we salute the flag or hear the National Anthem, but for many it will also have a ring of truth.

But it is a debate we need to have as Americans, as freedom loving people, as people who see the potential in what humankind can be.

Is the United States of America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? If so, can it be again? How?

I put this in the Tea Party forum because there was no other place for it. The Tea Party movement has consistently been focused on restoring America to its former greatness, prosperity, and best values.

If we could keep the discussion reasonably civil it would be much appreciated.

The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER... - YouTube

yes it is still the greatest. but there are many things that could improve. We have let this country go downhill year by year for the last 50 years. it's not bush, not regan, not clinton, not carter. It's not wall street. Politicians are a facilitator of unchecked greed. Wall street, in looking for profits, has taken it a step too far. Compensation packages for execs are criminal and immoral. but if you look at where we are today and you take a step back to the late 1800's early 1900's we are in a very similar situation to the years of the robber barons. the guys who started it all. it was their drive for increased profits that first started to create the gap between the rich and the poor. and that gap was a lot worse than it is today. we are slowly creeping back to those extreems because of unchecked and unregulated practices. But teddy Roosevelt had a solution for all that. bust the monopolies, apply sensible regulations. sensible, not prohibitive. and we have to bring the cost of living back in check. 3 decades ago you could live ok on a blue collar salary. What happened? We have all these cheap imports, mass merchandised stuff that cost less. yet it costs so much more to live. So yea, we are still the greatest, but we have flaws.

But let me ask this, who do you think is better and why?

 

[Foxfyre]

The following is maybe the most honest three and a half minutes we have seen in any medium for some time now. I think it will be disturbing to those of us who love our country, who feel pride and emotion when we salute the flag or hear the National Anthem, but for many it will also have a ring of truth.

But it is a debate we need to have as Americans, as freedom loving people, as people who see the potential in what humankind can be.

Is the United States of America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? If so, can it be again? How?

I put this in the Tea Party forum because there was no other place for it. The Tea Party movement has consistently been focused on restoring America to its former greatness, prosperity, and best values.

If we could keep the discussion reasonably civil it would be much appreciated.

The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER... - YouTube

yes it is still the greatest. but there are many things that could improve. We have let this country go downhill year by year for the last 50 years. it's not bush, not regan, not clinton, not carter. It's not wall street. Politicians are a facilitator of unchecked greed. Wall street, in looking for profits, has taken it a step too far. Compensation packages for execs are criminal and immoral. but if you look at where we are today and you take a step back to the late 1800's early 1900's we are in a very similar situation to the years of the robber barons. the guys who started it all. it was their drive for increased profits that first started to create the gap between the rich and the poor. and that gap was a lot worse than it is today. we are slowly creeping back to those extreems because of unchecked and unregulated practices. But teddy Roosevelt had a solution for all that. bust the monopolies, apply sensible regulations. sensible, not prohibitive. and we have to bring the cost of living back in check. 3 decades ago you could live ok on a blue collar salary. What happened? We have all these cheap imports, mass merchandised stuff that cost less. yet it costs so much more to live. So yea, we are still the greatest, but we have flaws.

But let me ask this, who do you think is better and why?

You can look at my immediately previous posts re regulation and conclude that it is lack of regulation that is causing the problems? I don't think so.

Nor is a disparity between rich and poor. Many, not all, but probably most of the Founders themselves were proportionately as rich as our richest when compared to America's poorest at that time. That allowed them the education, time, and wherewithal to neglect their crops or businesses sufficiently to focus on forging a great nation out of the hodgepodge of colonies that existed at the time. The problem is not those who receive those 'obscene' salaries. The problem is a system in which the poorer people have lost the incentive, power, inclination, and/or ability to strive to become rich.

And because we have not yet lost the ability to turn it all around--at least I hope we have not--I don't think there is any nation that is 'better' than the USA. But there are nations who do a much better job of educating their children, who are more efficient at managing their welfare states, and who exercise must better fiscal stewardship and accountability. I refuse to believe that if we could get a too big, too inefficient, too ineffective, too expensive and greedy federal government out of the way, free Americans would not be able to do all that much better as we once did.

 

[Spoonman]

The following is maybe the most honest three and a half minutes we have seen in any medium for some time now. I think it will be disturbing to those of us who love our country, who feel pride and emotion when we salute the flag or hear the National Anthem, but for many it will also have a ring of truth.

But it is a debate we need to have as Americans, as freedom loving people, as people who see the potential in what humankind can be.

Is the United States of America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? If so, can it be again? How?

I put this in the Tea Party forum because there was no other place for it. The Tea Party movement has consistently been focused on restoring America to its former greatness, prosperity, and best values.

If we could keep the discussion reasonably civil it would be much appreciated.

The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER... - YouTube

yes it is still the greatest. but there are many things that could improve. We have let this country go downhill year by year for the last 50 years. it's not bush, not regan, not clinton, not carter. It's not wall street. Politicians are a facilitator of unchecked greed. Wall street, in looking for profits, has taken it a step too far. Compensation packages for execs are criminal and immoral. but if you look at where we are today and you take a step back to the late 1800's early 1900's we are in a very similar situation to the years of the robber barons. the guys who started it all. it was their drive for increased profits that first started to create the gap between the rich and the poor. and that gap was a lot worse than it is today. we are slowly creeping back to those extreems because of unchecked and unregulated practices. But teddy Roosevelt had a solution for all that. bust the monopolies, apply sensible regulations. sensible, not prohibitive. and we have to bring the cost of living back in check. 3 decades ago you could live ok on a blue collar salary. What happened? We have all these cheap imports, mass merchandised stuff that cost less. yet it costs so much more to live. So yea, we are still the greatest, but we have flaws.

But let me ask this, who do you think is better and why?

You can look at my immediately previous posts re regulation and conclude that it is lack of regulation that is causing the problems? I don't think so.

Nor is a disparity between rich and poor. Many, not all, but probably most of the Founders themselves were proportionately as rich as our richest when compared to America's poorest at that time. That allowed them the education, time, and wherewithal to neglect their crops or businesses sufficiently to focus on forging a great nation out of the hodgepodge of colonies that existed at the time. The problem is not those who receive those 'obscene' salaries. The problem is a system in which the poorer people have lost the incentive, power, inclination, and/or ability to strive to become rich.

And because we have not yet lost the ability to turn it all around--at least I hope we have not--I don't think there is any nation that is 'better' than the USA. But there are nations who do a much better job of educating their children, who are more efficient at managing their welfare states, and who exercise must better fiscal stewardship and accountability. I refuse to believe that if we could get a too big, too inefficient, too ineffective, too expensive and greedy federal government out of the way, free Americans would not be able to do all that much better as we once did.

yes, the great welfare state. nothing destroys incentive quicker. and what is the great danger in the USA is that it becomes a way of life. the only life they know. the people in that state do not get the education they need to pull themselves out. its a vicious circle. they have kids who grow up learning that life. their kids have kids and after generations it becomes further ingrained in them. the other problem is that for a very large majority of the immigrants, living with those meager wages is a far cry better than what they are used to. and they don't have to work 80 hrs a week to get it. plus, you can walk into an emergency room and a doctor will see you.

Regulation is what brought about a lot of the change before. and why i thing this regulation is necessary is because our society has changed. in the days of our forefathers and even still largely up to the days of our forefathers we were a more agrarian society. people lived off the land. you could take care of your basic needs of survival on your own. this is no longer so in urbanized and industrialized societies. you now become dependent on buying things to survive. and this is why it took regulation, unionization and such to make change happen. the problem is, those things that were put inplace to help eventually went to far and started causing harm. we priced ourselves out of competitiveness.

 

[Dr Grump]

And the reason Americans are more free is that our government cannot change our Constitution without our consent. The government does not assign the rights we the people will have. We the people instruct the government in what responsibilities it will have. We are unique among nations in that regard. That in a nutshell is the crux of American exceptionalism.

I disagree to an extent. Our govts cannot change our laws without our consent. Trying to make laws that are unpopular has cost many a government an election...

And I'll think you'll find in practical terms that the 'people' instruct the govt is not the reality of what you do. Doin't get me wrong, there are certain things set in stone - but other, more practical, things are not....

 

[Foxfyre]

And the reason Americans are more free is that our government cannot change our Constitution without our consent. The government does not assign the rights we the people will have. We the people instruct the government in what responsibilities it will have. We are unique among nations in that regard. That in a nutshell is the crux of American exceptionalism.

I disagree to an extent. Our govts cannot change our laws without our consent. Trying to make laws that are unpopular has cost many a government an election...

And I'll think you'll find in practical terms that the 'people' instruct the govt is not the reality of what you do. Doin't get me wrong, there are certain things set in stone - but other, more practical, things are not....

Can you clarify this a bit? Of course the government can change our laws without our consent. They do it all the time. But they can't Change the constitution without sending the change to all the states to ratify. That is absolutely one of the USA's greatest strengths. But of course, when the government becomes so large, so powerful, so self serving that it takes license to ignore the Constitution and/or the law and/or its own rules, then of course all the rest is moot.

But I'm not sure where you are coming from with your post which is why I request clarification before I agree or disagree with you.

 

[Foxfyre]

yes it is still the greatest. but there are many things that could improve. We have let this country go downhill year by year for the last 50 years. it's not bush, not regan, not clinton, not carter. It's not wall street. Politicians are a facilitator of unchecked greed. Wall street, in looking for profits, has taken it a step too far. Compensation packages for execs are criminal and immoral. but if you look at where we are today and you take a step back to the late 1800's early 1900's we are in a very similar situation to the years of the robber barons. the guys who started it all. it was their drive for increased profits that first started to create the gap between the rich and the poor. and that gap was a lot worse than it is today. we are slowly creeping back to those extreems because of unchecked and unregulated practices. But teddy Roosevelt had a solution for all that. bust the monopolies, apply sensible regulations. sensible, not prohibitive. and we have to bring the cost of living back in check. 3 decades ago you could live ok on a blue collar salary. What happened? We have all these cheap imports, mass merchandised stuff that cost less. yet it costs so much more to live. So yea, we are still the greatest, but we have flaws.

But let me ask this, who do you think is better and why?

You can look at my immediately previous posts re regulation and conclude that it is lack of regulation that is causing the problems? I don't think so.

Nor is a disparity between rich and poor. Many, not all, but probably most of the Founders themselves were proportionately as rich as our richest when compared to America's poorest at that time. That allowed them the education, time, and wherewithal to neglect their crops or businesses sufficiently to focus on forging a great nation out of the hodgepodge of colonies that existed at the time. The problem is not those who receive those 'obscene' salaries. The problem is a system in which the poorer people have lost the incentive, power, inclination, and/or ability to strive to become rich.

And because we have not yet lost the ability to turn it all around--at least I hope we have not--I don't think there is any nation that is 'better' than the USA. But there are nations who do a much better job of educating their children, who are more efficient at managing their welfare states, and who exercise must better fiscal stewardship and accountability. I refuse to believe that if we could get a too big, too inefficient, too ineffective, too expensive and greedy federal government out of the way, free Americans would not be able to do all that much better as we once did.

yes, the great welfare state. nothing destroys incentive quicker. and what is the great danger in the USA is that it becomes a way of life. the only life they know. the people in that state do not get the education they need to pull themselves out. its a vicious circle. they have kids who grow up learning that life. their kids have kids and after generations it becomes further ingrained in them. the other problem is that for a very large majority of the immigrants, living with those meager wages is a far cry better than what they are used to. and they don't have to work 80 hrs a week to get it. plus, you can walk into an emergency room and a doctor will see you.

Regulation is what brought about a lot of the change before. and why i thing this regulation is necessary is because our society has changed. in the days of our forefathers and even still largely up to the days of our forefathers we were a more agrarian society. people lived off the land. you could take care of your basic needs of survival on your own. this is no longer so in urbanized and industrialized societies. you now become dependent on buying things to survive. and this is why it took regulation, unionization and such to make change happen. the problem is, those things that were put inplace to help eventually went to far and started causing harm. we priced ourselves out of competitiveness.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the goal is not to do away with government. The goal should be to have a government that works, that is effective, and that does not overstep its Constitutional authority. And the goal should not be to do away with all regulation but to eliminate all that is not necessary and within the scope of the federal government's Constitutional authority.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Blah, blah, fucking blah.

 

[Spoonman]

You can look at my immediately previous posts re regulation and conclude that it is lack of regulation that is causing the problems? I don't think so.

Nor is a disparity between rich and poor. Many, not all, but probably most of the Founders themselves were proportionately as rich as our richest when compared to America's poorest at that time. That allowed them the education, time, and wherewithal to neglect their crops or businesses sufficiently to focus on forging a great nation out of the hodgepodge of colonies that existed at the time. The problem is not those who receive those 'obscene' salaries. The problem is a system in which the poorer people have lost the incentive, power, inclination, and/or ability to strive to become rich.

And because we have not yet lost the ability to turn it all around--at least I hope we have not--I don't think there is any nation that is 'better' than the USA. But there are nations who do a much better job of educating their children, who are more efficient at managing their welfare states, and who exercise must better fiscal stewardship and accountability. I refuse to believe that if we could get a too big, too inefficient, too ineffective, too expensive and greedy federal government out of the way, free Americans would not be able to do all that much better as we once did.

yes, the great welfare state. nothing destroys incentive quicker. and what is the great danger in the USA is that it becomes a way of life. the only life they know. the people in that state do not get the education they need to pull themselves out. its a vicious circle. they have kids who grow up learning that life. their kids have kids and after generations it becomes further ingrained in them. the other problem is that for a very large majority of the immigrants, living with those meager wages is a far cry better than what they are used to. and they don't have to work 80 hrs a week to get it. plus, you can walk into an emergency room and a doctor will see you.

Regulation is what brought about a lot of the change before. and why i thing this regulation is necessary is because our society has changed. in the days of our forefathers and even still largely up to the days of our forefathers we were a more agrarian society. people lived off the land. you could take care of your basic needs of survival on your own. this is no longer so in urbanized and industrialized societies. you now become dependent on buying things to survive. and this is why it took regulation, unionization and such to make change happen. the problem is, those things that were put inplace to help eventually went to far and started causing harm. we priced ourselves out of competitiveness.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the goal is not to do away with government. The goal should be to have a government that works, that is effective, and that does not overstep its Constitutional authority. And the goal should not be to do away with all regulation but to eliminate all that is not necessary and within the scope of the federal government's Constitutional authority.

smart man that ronald reagan

 

[oldernwiser]

So you don't consider the current administration to be authoritarian? It is only conservatives? I think you don't have a clue what modern American conservatism is. Not all who identify themselves as conservatives are.

A friend of mine referred me to an interesting website.

The Political Compass - US Presidential Election 2012

They're UK based, and so don't have a dog in US politics, so I'm comfortable with their assessment. Based on the information provided during speeches and actions of both candidates, they set up an assessment graph showing where each lie in relation to each other. I was very surprised, you might want to check it out.

There is even a test where they use the same criteria to plot your own political philosophy and see how well you compare to your candidate's point of view. I'd be really interested in your score (mine was -3.6: liberal libertarian, which I would totally agree with).

 

[oldernwiser]

The following is maybe the most honest three and a half minutes we have seen in any medium for some time now. I think it will be disturbing to those of us who love our country, who feel pride and emotion when we salute the flag or hear the National Anthem, but for many it will also have a ring of truth.

But it is a debate we need to have as Americans, as freedom loving people, as people who see the potential in what humankind can be.

Is the United States of America the greatest country in the world? Was it ever? If so, can it be again? How?

I put this in the Tea Party forum because there was no other place for it. The Tea Party movement has consistently been focused on restoring America to its former greatness, prosperity, and best values.

If we could keep the discussion reasonably civil it would be much appreciated.

The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER... - YouTube

yes it is still the greatest. but there are many things that could improve. We have let this country go downhill year by year for the last 50 years. it's not bush, not regan, not clinton, not carter. It's not wall street. Politicians are a facilitator of unchecked greed. Wall street, in looking for profits, has taken it a step too far. Compensation packages for execs are criminal and immoral. but if you look at where we are today and you take a step back to the late 1800's early 1900's we are in a very similar situation to the years of the robber barons. the guys who started it all. it was their drive for increased profits that first started to create the gap between the rich and the poor. and that gap was a lot worse than it is today. we are slowly creeping back to those extreems because of unchecked and unregulated practices. But teddy Roosevelt had a solution for all that. bust the monopolies, apply sensible regulations. sensible, not prohibitive. and we have to bring the cost of living back in check. 3 decades ago you could live ok on a blue collar salary. What happened? We have all these cheap imports, mass merchandised stuff that cost less. yet it costs so much more to live. So yea, we are still the greatest, but we have flaws.

But let me ask this, who do you think is better and why?

You can look at my immediately previous posts re regulation and conclude that it is lack of regulation that is causing the problems? I don't think so.

Nor is a disparity between rich and poor. Many, not all, but probably most of the Founders themselves were proportionately as rich as our richest when compared to America's poorest at that time. That allowed them the education, time, and wherewithal to neglect their crops or businesses sufficiently to focus on forging a great nation out of the hodgepodge of colonies that existed at the time. The problem is not those who receive those 'obscene' salaries. The problem is a system in which the poorer people have lost the incentive, power, inclination, and/or ability to strive to become rich.

And because we have not yet lost the ability to turn it all around--at least I hope we have not--I don't think there is any nation that is 'better' than the USA. But there are nations who do a much better job of educating their children, who are more efficient at managing their welfare states, and who exercise must better fiscal stewardship and accountability. I refuse to believe that if we could get a too big, too inefficient, too ineffective, too expensive and greedy federal government out of the way, free Americans would not be able to do all that much better as we once did.

I have to take a certain amount of exception to this as well. IMO, two of the worst decisions that have contributed to the shrinking middle class were that corporations no longer had to have a limited lifetime and scope, and that SCOTUS conferred citizenship status on corporations. Understand that a corporation is bound by law to make financial decisions for the betterment of it's shareholders. If that means paying less than subsistence wages to maintain a higher profit margin, or sending work to a different company paying pennies per piece, so be it. The end result is that the people on the poorer end of the scale (ie, those who weren't brought up in a monied environment) have fewer opportunities to ever climb into the middle class, let alone become rich. This has nothing to do with the incentives of the poor - ask a few, I'm sure they'd love the chance to do themselves and their families better.

Corporations must, by their very standards, work toward the detriment of other businesses which would kill their own market share. Removing opportunities means that there's LESS of a chance for another Bill Gates or a Steve Jobs to come along with a rags to riches scheme - and that protects their bottom line. Further, deregulation and laws that hamper their profits are fair game - which is why they work so hard at union busting and resist all efforts to compel them to keep their manufacturing jobs here.

You're right. The disparity between the rich and the poor is NOT the problem - it is a symptom of a problem that gets worse every day, especially now that these same corporations can set up charitable foundations which they can use to lower their own tax burdens with as well as mobilize "grass roots" efforts (and also add a level of opaqueness) to elect people that will only help to solidify their positions. The Tea Party is only one of those efforts, as is True The Vote. There are dozens.

 

[oldernwiser]

smart man that ronald reagan

Yep. Had us all fooled.