Ireland supports Palestinian statehood

[Urbanguerrilla]

"THE IRISH GOVERNMENT’S decision to support the Palestinian application for membership of the United Nations has been broadly welcomed by all the main political parties in Ireland."

Great news

Gilmore position on Palestinian state welcomed - The Irish Times - Tue, Sep 27, 2011

Ireland supports Palestinian statehood bid | Peace Times

 

[Swagger]

Cue: JStone, Ropey, Jillian et al.

 

[Ropey]

Cue: JStone, Ropey, Jillian et al.

^Blagger wants a thread without JStone, Ropey and Jillian (et al = ) in here. He is afraid to post something because of the responses of those members.

Poor blagger...

Is that the same Blagger that says JStone and I are Hasbarat?

Is that the same Blagger who says that Jroc, Ropey and Jillian are chiseling Jews?

Yes...

'nuff said.

"THE IRISH GOVERNMENT’S decision to support the Palestinian application for membership of the United Nations has been broadly welcomed by all the main political parties in Ireland.

I'm of the opinion that first the Palestinians need to find a pride in themselves. A Palestinian virtually created state would define that there is an Israeli state by the very nature of their being the Palestinian state side by side.

This in effect would be a declaration of both states. Then they could get to finishing the 2% of negotiations since 98% has been completed for over a decade.

So there are positives in this move by Abbas. I personally think it is a good way to go as part of the process. They need some pride.

Let them have it I say. Win-Lose is sixty years ago. Win-Win is today.

I know blagger. You would far rather tell me what I think than have me say what I think.

Because it doesn't follow what you think of me.

 

[Swagger]

One down, two to go.

 

[Ropey]

^ I note no response to the news or opinions. All you seem to want to do is try and gag people or attack them personally.

Sad and weak...

 

[Swagger]

I've neither "gagged" or "attacked" anyone on this thread, Ropey. Nor am I or my efforts "sad and weak".

Let's see now. Two replies from Ropey, and one "neg rep" from jillian. As soon as JStone chimes in with one of his YouTube videos we'll have a full house.

 

[Ropey]

I've neither "gagged" or "attacked" anyone on this thread, Ropey. Nor am I or my efforts "sad and weak".

Let's see now. Two replies from Ropey, and one "neg rep" from jillian. As soon as JStone chimes in with one of his YouTube videos we'll have a full house.

Good to see that they are on target. That I like.

There's not much more to say. You popped in and took a dump and now are saying that the place is clean.

I expect you to come back and blame someone for the smell that remains...

 

[editec]

Doesn't surprise me much.

The Irish know something about what its like to be an occupied land.

They also understand how important it is for a people to have their own people control the government.

They fought a 700 year war for their liberation.

 

[JStone]

Palestinians celebrate 9/11
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k]Palestinians celebrating the fall of the twin towers on 911 - YouTube[/ame]

Palestinians condemned the killing of bin Laden their "holy warrior"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVTTbmN1aRI]Palestinians condemn killing of 'holy warrior' bin Laden - YouTube[/ame]

Palestinians call for death of all Americans and Jews
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7rls9eRKyo]Islam: Oh Allah - Kill all Jews and Americans! - YouTube[/ame]

Palestinians boast of the death of their own children and wives: "We Desire Death Like You Desire Life"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life" - YouTube[/ame]

Nazi-Collaborating Palestinian Mufti Leader Greets Hitler
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg]1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler - YouTube[/ame]

Islamonazi Palestinian

My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but allah, we will chase you everywhere We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no better blood than the blood of the Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood, we will not rest until you leave the Muslim countries.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rleFpY402vM]Palestinian - Terrorism - YouTube[/ame]

Young Islamonazi-In-Training: Shahad, 9 year old Palestinian...

The Prophet Muhammad said the hour of resurrection will not take place until you fight the Jews The rock and the tree will say, "Oh, Muslim, servant of allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and fight him!"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSwpAX1xvrc]Palestinian children are taught: Genocide is God's will - YouTube[/ame]

Welcome to the World of the Palestinian

Allah, oh our Lord
Vanquish your enemies, enemies of the religion [Islam]
in all places
Allah, strike the Jews and their sympathizers,
the Christians and their supporters
the Communists and their adherents
Allah, count them and kill them to the last one,
and don't even leave even one.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrI8-qb9M9A]Hamas: Kill Christians and Jews "to the last one" - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JStone]

Doesn't surprise me much.

The Irish know something about what its like to be an occupied land.

They also understand how important it is for a people to have their own people control the government.

They fought a 700 year war for their liberation.

Jews have "occupied" Israel for 3000 years. Palestinians are illegal aliens from Arabia invented a few years ago.

Guy Milliere, Eminent Professor of History and Political Science, Sorbonne, Paris

No one had heard of a Palestinian people before the mid-1960s. They did not exist. Israel under the British Mandate until Israel' s Independence in 1948 was called Palestine. All Jews who were born there until i948 had the word « Palestine » stamped on their passports. The current Palestinians are those Arabs who, for a variety of reasons, decided to leave the land during the 1947 War of Independence, when five countries – Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq – attacked the 600,000 people in the fledgling state of Israel the day after its birth, hoping to kill it in the crib.
The War Against Israel Goes On- by Guy Millière | DRZZ.fr

Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Charles Krauthammer...

Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store.

PBS: Civilization and the Jews

The interaction of Jewish history and Western civilization successively assumed different forms. In the Biblical and Ancient periods, Israel was an integral part of the Near Eastern and classical world, which gave birth to Western civilization. It shared the traditions of ancient Mesopotamia and the rest of that world with regard to it’s own beginning; it benefited from the decline of Egypt and the other great Near Eastern empires to emerge as a nation in it’s own right; it asserted it’s claim to the divinely promised Land of Israel...
PBS - Heritage

University of Chicago Oriental Institute---Empires in the Fertile Crescent: : Israel, Ancient Assyria, and Anatolia

Visitors will get a rare look at one of the most important geographic regions in the ancient Near East beginning January 29 with the opening of "Empires in the Fertile Crescent: Ancient Assyria, Anatolia and Israel," the newest galleries at the Museum of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago.

The galleries showcase artifacts that illustrate the power of these ancient civilizations, including sculptural representations of tributes demanded by kings of ancient Assyria, and some sources of continual fascination, such as a fragment of the Dead Sea Scrolls--one of the few examples in the United States.

"Visitors begin in Assyria, move across Anatolia and down the Mediterranean coast to the land of ancient Israel. The galleries also trace the conquests of the Assyrian empire across the Middle East and follow their trail to Israel."

The Israelites, who emerged as the dominant people of that region in about 975 B.C. are documented by many objects of daily life, a large stamp engraved with a biblical text and an ossuary (box for bones) inscribed in Hebrew.
Probably the most spectacular portion of the Megiddo gallery, however, is the Megiddo ivories. These exquisitely carved pieces of elephant tusks were inlays in furniture, and a particularly large piece was made into a game board.

Oriental Institute | Museum

Harvard Semitic Museum: The Houses of Ancient Israel

In archaeological terms The Houses of Ancient Israel: Domestic, Royal, Divine focuses on the Iron Age (1200-586 B.C.E.). Iron I (1200-1000 B.C.E.) represents the premonarchical period. Iron II (1000-586 B.C.E.) was the time of kings. Uniting the tribal coalitions of Israel and Judah in the tenth century B.C.E., David and Solomon ruled over an expanding realm. After Solomon's death (c. 930 B.C.E.) Israel and Judah separated into two kingdoms.
Israel was led at times by strong kings, Omri and Ahab in the ninth century B.C.E. and Jereboam II in the eighth. In the end, however, Israel was no match for expansionist Assyria. Samaria, the Israelite capital, fell to the Assyrians in 722 B.C.E.

The Houses of Ancient Israel § Semitic Museum

University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology: Canaan and Ancient Israel

The first major North American exhibition dedicated to the archaeology of ancient Israel and neighboring lands, "Canaan and Ancient Israel" features more than 350 rare artifacts from about 3,000 to 586 B.C.E., excavated by University of Pennsylvania Museum archaeologists in Israel,
Artcom Museums Tour: University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Philadelphia PA

Yale Law School Faculty Scholarship Series: Ancient Land Law in Israel, Mesopotamia, Egypt

This Article provides an overview of the land regimes that the peoples of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Israel created by law and custom between 3000 B.C. and 500 B.C

A look at land regimes in the earliest periods of human history can illuminate debate over the extent to which human institutions can be expected to vary from time to time and place to place.
"Ancient Land Law: Mesopotamia, Egypt, Israel" by Robert C. Ellickson and Charles DiA. Thorland

Yale University Press: Education in Ancient Israel

In this groundbreaking new book, distinguished biblical scholar James L. Crenshaw investigates both the pragmatic hows and the philosophical whys of education in ancient Israel and its surroundings. Asking questions as basic as "Who were the teachers and students and from what segment of Israelite society did they come?" and "How did instructors interest young people in the things they had to say?" Crenshaw explores the institutions and practices of education in ancient Israel. The results are often surprising and more complicated than one would expect.

Education in Ancient Israel - Crenshaw, James L - Yale University Press

Yale University Press: The Archaeology of Ancient Israel

In this lavishly illustrated book some of Israel's foremost archaeologists present a thorough, up-to-date, and readily accessible survey of early life in the land of the Bible, from the Neolithic era (eighth millennium B.C.E.) to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. It will be a delightful and informative resource for anyone who has ever wanted to know more about the religious, scientific, or historical background of the region.
The Archaeology of Ancient Israel - Ben-Tor, Amnon; Greenberg, R. - Yale University Press

Cambridge University Press: The World of Ancient Israel
The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Academic and Professional Books - Cambridge University Press

Cambridge University Press: Wisdom in Ancient Israel
Wisdom in Ancient Israel - Academic and Professional Books - Cambridge University Press

PBS Nova...

In the banks of the Nile in southern Egypt in 1896, British archaeologisit Flinders Petrie unearthed one of the most important discoveries in biblical archaeology known as the Merneptah Stele. Merneptah's stele announces the entrance on the world stage of a People named Israel.

The Merneptah Stele is powerful evidence that a People called the Israelites are living in Canaan over 3000 years ago

Dr. Donald Redford, Egyptologist and archaeologist: The Merneptah Stele is priceless evidence for the presence of an ethnical group called Israel in Canaan.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvg2EZAEw5c]1/13 The Bible's Buried Secrets (NOVA PBS) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Trajan]

Cue: JStone, Ropey, Jillian et al.

I think this type of end run to statehood is presumptuous, precipitous and unhealthy...do you have an opinion on this issue?

 

[JStone]

Cue: JStone, Ropey, Jillian et al.

I think this type of end run to statehood is presumptuous, precipitous and unhealthy...do you have an opinion on this issue?

When has there ever been a Palestinian state in history, including 400 years of Turkish Muslim Ottoman rule?

 

[mawlarky]

Ireland(Eire) has always been a supporter of Palestine with the North of Ireland (Ulster) being a strong supporter of Israel, it is not unusual to have nationalists in Ireland flying the palestinian flag and Unionists flying the flag of Israel. The flag of North Ireland does contain the Star of David.

 

[alexa]

Ireland(Eire) has always been a supporter of Palestine with the North of Ireland (Ulster) being a strong supporter of Israel, it is not unusual to have nationalists in Ireland flying the palestinian flag and Unionists flying the flag of Israel. The flag of North Ireland does contain the Star of David.

Hardly surprisingly. Seems some Scot's of earlier times had a mind they came from that part of the world

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown.

They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.

Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.

Declaration of Arbroath 6th April 1320

The text of the Declaration of Arbroath - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture

 

[editec]

Ireland supports Palestinian statehood

Doesn't surprise me.

It took Ireland about 700 years before was finally incorporated into an independent nation.

They understand better than most people, what being occupied means, and how important it is for a people to control their own land.

If one understands why the Jews needed to have Isreal, failing to understand why the Palestinians also need their own land takes a kind of ethnocentric blindness.

 

[jillian]

Ireland supports Palestinian statehood

Doesn't surprise me.

It took Ireland about 700 years before was finally incorporated into an independent nation.

They understand better than most people, what being occupied means, and how important it is for a people to control their own land.

If one understands why the Jews needed to have Isreal, failing to understand why the Palestinians also need their own land takes a kind of ethnocentric blindness.

most jews don't have a problem with the palestinians having *a* state (even though they're actually jordanian, but that's for another thread) ... it just can't be in israel... and it can't be done in a way that infringes on israel's boarders or makes israel indefensible.

the pals are spoiled tantruming brats who refuse to make a deal, even when given about 98% of what they wanted. under those circumstances, they're responsible for their own circumstances.

 

[alexa]

Ireland(Eire) has always been a supporter of Palestine with the North of Ireland (Ulster) being a strong supporter of Israel, it is not unusual to have nationalists in Ireland flying the palestinian flag and Unionists flying the flag of Israel. The flag of North Ireland does contain the Star of David.

I don't know how much your knowledge is on this subject. The IRA had solidarity with the PLO that is well known.

Possibly this has more to do with Ulster's relationship with Israel than lost tribes . I've been finding some shady stuff which I didn't know about before of dirty deeds going on.

Project Echoes - British State Collusion in Political Murder

so that may be the reason for the supposed relationship. Donno, enlighten me. I had known more of the UDF as working with European neo Nazi's. Seems a strange relationship as the first photo below shows them giving Nazi salutes on the same terrace as star of David Flags are flying. There certainly needs to be some strong reason for this allegiance which with flags and what not suggests far more than normal relations.

 

[pgm]

The Irish and Palestinian struggle remind me of one another.

And Ropey, you're not the same as JStone, even if you share opinions.

 

[alexa]

The flag of North Ireland does contain the Star of David.

OK, this really got me confused but I think I have it now. Not the Star of David and that would have been most peculiar. The star represents the 6 counties of Ulster

The flag is a heraldic banner taken from the coat of arms granted in 1924 which is based on the flag of England[6][7][8] and the flag of Ulster,[9] with the addition of a crown to symbolise the loyalty of Ulster unionists to the British Monarchy. As with the flag of Ulster, it contains the Red Hand of Ulster at the centre. The six pointed star represents the six counties that make up Northern Ireland. The flag is also sometimes referred to as the "Red Hand Flag", "the Flag of Northern Ireland", the "Northern Ireland flag" or as the "Ulster Flag" (not to be confused with the provincial Flag of Ulster).

Ulster Banner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JStone]

The Irish and Palestinian struggle remind me of one another.

When was Palestine ever a state, jackass, and are the Irish threatening genocide against the British like the Pals threaten genocide against the Jews? You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Amir Taheri: Palestine Is Not A Nation
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=26840

A recent creation, the modern state is the political expression of a nation’s existence. One must first have a nation and then look for a state to express its existence.

Is Palestine a nation, in the modern sense of the term as described by Herder at the end of the 18th century?

You might be surprised, even angered, by this question. However, none of the dozens of political parties that have claimed to represent the Palestinians in the past seven decades ever described itself as national.

Words such as “nation” and “national” do not feature in the designation of such movements as Al Fatah and Hamas. Instead, they, and many other smaller ones, use adjectives such as “Islamic” or “people’s”. The subtext is that the Palestinians are, at most, “a people” but not a nation. They are regarded as part either of a larger, and mythical, Arab “nation” or an even more problematic Islamic Ummah.

Wedded to leftist or Islamist ideologies, Palestinian political formations systematically rejected the concept of the nation, the backbone of modern statehood.

The contrast with modern national liberation movements throughout the world is telling. For all of them the word “nation” is the key to their identity. Thus, we have the African National Congress in South Africa, and the National Liberation Front (FLN) in Algeria. Even Communist-dominated Vietcong described itself as a National Liberation Front.

Islamist or leftist, Palestinian political movements treat Palestine as a “cause” rather than a political project.

But what is that “cause”?

This was clearly put by Hamas leader Khalid Mishal in a speech in Tehran on 3 October. “Our aim,” he said, “is liberating all of Palestine from the River to the Sea.” In other words, the cause is not to give Palestinians a state but to destroy Israel.

Ramadan Abdallah Shallah, leader of the Islamic Jihad for Palestine was even more explicit. “When we come to power we shall not allow the Zionist regime to live a single moment,” he said in Tehran.

According to the daily Kayhan of 4 October, both men paid tribute to “Supreme Guide” Ali Khamenei as the man who should have the final word on Palestine.

Mishal said: “The esteemed Commander of the Islamic Revolution, Imam Khamenei, is our Guide and Leader. His wishes will be the cause of the Palestinians. Our sovereign and master is Khamenei.”

This, of course, is not the first time that Palestinian leaders have auctioned “the cause”. There was a time when Abdel Nasser was bootlicked as “guide and master”. In 1991, Yasser Arafat sold “the cause” to Saddam Hussein. A few years later in Oslo, he re-sold it to Shimon Peres.

In his speech, Khamenei promised that, once Israel is destroyed, he would organize a referendum in which Palestinians from all over the world and some citizens of Israel would decide what to do with “liberated Palestine”. Mischievous tongues in Tehran say that one option could be to attach “liberated Palestine” to Khamenei’s “imamate” empire. This is not fanciful. After all, Nasser, too, had hoped to annex “liberated Palestine” for his Arab Republic. Saddam Hussein had dreams of turning Palestine into Iraq’s “counter on the Mediterranean”, a scheme that would have also required the destruction of Jordan as an independent country. Hafez al-Assad fancied Palestine as part of “Greater Syria”.

Mishal and Shallah’s flattery towards Khamenei implies that there is no Palestinian “nation”. A sovereign nation would not demand that the leader of a foreign country decide its future.

The quest for a Palestinian state starts with the Palestinians themselves. They must decide whether they are a modern nation or a fragment of larger entities beyond their control.

...[A]s a member of the United Nations, a state cannot adopt the destruction of another UN member as its “cause.”

Palestine must choose what it wants to be a “cause” or a state.