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The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy.
According to news reports, when Mosul was attacked by a relative small number of Isis fighters, the Iraqi command in the city boarded helicopters and left leaving the fighting to subordinates and their troops. The outcome was as expected.The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy.
Was the entire Iraqi Army worthless when it came to defending democracy? About a quarter made a hasty retreat against ISIS last June. What makes you think the entire Iraqi Army is worthless. What percent of all Iraqi troops were in Mosul and Tikrit and fled?
Do you even know a very important fact?
According to news reports, when Mosul was attacked by a relative small number of Isis fighters, the Iraqi command in the city boarded helicopters and left leaving the fighting to subordinates and their troops. The outcome was as expected.The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy.
Was the entire Iraqi Army worthless when it came to defending democracy? About a quarter made a hasty retreat against ISIS last June. What makes you think the entire Iraqi Army is worthless. What percent of all Iraqi troops were in Mosul and Tikrit and fled?
Do you even know a very important fact?
The original Iraqi army was fine, along with Saddam's security forces. Basically the US government had a knee-jerk reaction, and dismantled that apparatus resulting in civil war and chaos. What was left was a mess of tribes and political and religious factions that couldn't get along.The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy.
Was the entire Iraqi Army worthless when it came to defending democracy? About a quarter made a hasty retreat against ISIS last June. What makes you think the entire Iraqi Army is worthless. What percent of all Iraqi troops were in Mosul and Tikrit and fled?
Do you even know a very important fact?
You keep looking through your western eyes instead of through the prism of an antiquated country lacking in legal and many other infrastructures.
I can read and comprehend what Crocker signed for the USA. If it does not say what Bush thought it said in modern plain seventh grade English then the damned fool Bush should not have authorized Cocker to sign it.
That prism you use. You are bending the truth to such severe distortion that its clear that you have no sense of the necessity that words must have meaning specifically in legal matters of international law and respect for sovereignty of nations - even Iraq after what Bush incited with his invasion.
Perhaps your prism is what caused you to miss the fact that the 2008 SOFA had to be passed by Iraq's parliament.
The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy. If they don't feel like it is worth defending, why should we care?So you are saying that Saddam Hussein invited George Bush and Company to invade Iraq?
or maybe you are saying this happened after Shock and Awe?
Or maybe they invited us after the Iraqi Army that we trained and financed for 10 years plus ran like cowards and refuse to fight the ISIS even though they outnumbered ISIS by 40 to 1. I think this is the most likely one.
There were plenty of Iraqis that wanted our help. I saw it with my own eyes. .
The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy. If they don't feel like it is worth defending, why should we care?There were plenty of Iraqis that wanted our help. I saw it with my own eyes. .
Desperado, I explained this in depth in an earlier post on this thread. It's the post where I talked about the U.S. providing the glue. When we left we removed the glue. WE are the primary reason. There are many reasons, but we were the linchpin.
WHY should we care? They threw down their weapons that WE gave them...MOOT POINT...GUESS who has them NOW?The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when if came to defending their democracy. If they don't feel like it is worth defending, why should we care?
Obama should have NEGOTIATED for a Status Of Forces agreement...Political expediency was MORE of import to Obama for Re-Election...EVIL is the result...AT OUR DOORSTEP...
THAT is WHY WE should care...WAKE UP!
he did negotiate with SOFA but both parties didnt want to listen....Again ignorance
As for Petreaus, I had to show up in his office to update him, idiot. Do you know how many complex, ambiguous statements he made in all his years there????? .
Petraeus didn't write the SOFA in 2008 that Bush had Ryan Crocker sign.
WHY should we care? They threw down their weapons that WE gave them...MOOT POINT...GUESS who has them NOW?The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when if came to defending their democracy. If they don't feel like it is worth defending, why should we care?
Obama should have NEGOTIATED for a Status Of Forces agreement...Political expediency was MORE of import to Obama for Re-Election...EVIL is the result...AT OUR DOORSTEP...
THAT is WHY WE should care...WAKE UP!
BTW Obama was running on the platform to get our troops out of Iraq
That was one of the reasons people voted for him. People were war weary and tired of Iraq.
He won by doing what the people wanted and because the Republicans nominated a clown to run against him.
Now, How do you figure that Iraq is at our doorstep?
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Buffalo Springfield
There were plenty of Iraqis that wanted our help. I saw it with my own eyes.
I expect you didn't see with your own eyes, the grief and tears in Shams Amin mother's eyes:
058 Salma Amin 50
059 Mohammed Amin 27 (son of Salma)
060 Said Amin 24 (son of Salma)
061 Shams Amin 20 (daughter of Salma)
This family was the 58th through 61st civilian victim of the US bombing shock and awe of Iraq in March through April 2003.
The Pentagon reported on 7 April that a B2 bomber dropped four 2000-pound laser-guided GBU-24 bunker-buster bombs on the Al Saa Restaurant in the al Mansour District of Baghdad that Intelligence sources claimed was a meeting place of Saddam Hussein, his two sons, and senior Iraqi regime leaders.
When the broken body of the 20-year-old woman was brought out -- torso first, then the head -- her mother started crying uncontrollably, then collapsed.
That must be Shams Amin, daughter of Salma Amin and sister to Mohammed and Said Amin, who were all killed by the four 2000 lb BGU bunker buster bombs inside or near the Al Saa Restaurant in the Mansour District of Baghdad, Iraq on April 7 2003.
Iraq's government and Bush set the deadline for withdrawal of all combat troops before January 1 2012. That cannot be refuted by anyone. Iraq's government decided it would not extend it with the immunity for combat troops that the US requires.
Since Iraq's political leadership wouid not extend the deadline with immunity, Obama had no legal or satisfactory options to keep troops in Iraq.
No it did not when you read the actual document.
It was a scale down of forces with a possible to be announced number of troops to stay behind as "advisors" and help train the rest of the Iraqi army.
I know the far left does not understand these terms such as "combat troops", "advisors", "training forces", etc. So this will not compute to the far left programmed propaganda running now.
Yeah that's feels true, deep down in your gut doesn't it, well until you actually read the document.
Article 24
Withdrawal of the United States Forces from Iraq
Recognizing the performance and increasing capacity of the Iraqi Security Forces, the
assumption of full security responsibility by those Forces, and based upon the strong
relationship between the Parties, an agreement on the following has been reached:
1. All the United States Forces shall withdraw from all Iraqi territory no later than
December 31, 2011.
2. All United States combat forces shall withdraw from Iraqi cities, villages, and
localities no later than the time at which Iraqi Security Forces assume full responsibility
for security in an Iraqi province, provided that such withdrawal is completed no later than
June 30, 2009.
3. United States combat forces withdrawn pursuant to paragraph 2 above shall be
stationed in the agreed facilities and areas outside cities, villages, and localities to be
designated by the JMOCC before the date established in paragraph 2 above.
4. The United States recognizes the sovereign right of the Government of Iraq to request
the departure of the United States Forces from Iraq at any time. The Government of Iraq
recognizes the sovereign right of the United States to withdraw the United States Forces
from Iraq at any time.
5. The Parties agree to establish mechanisms and arrangements to reduce the number of
the United States Forces during the periods of time that have been determined, and they
shall agree on the locations where the United States Forces will be present.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/20081119_SOFA_FINAL_AGREED_TEXT.pdf
Actually, the deaths of thousands of Iraqis (including many children), are ALREADY on Obama, for not acting when it was needed.
Obama haters have it easy. Obama is to be attacked for all evil and all major tragedy and violence that occurs in the world for his presumed inaction and for also for any action he actually takes even when its regarding the same crisis.
Republicans don't respect the will of the people or the will of independent nations.
They see every country as the rightful servant of Washington. They claim not to trust Washington yet they give it the money and power to remake whole Arab nations. (Are you fucking kidding?) No other political group has grown the power of Washington in my lifetime. They even gave bureaucrats the power to collect our emails and listen to our phone calls. With the Patriot Act, the George Bush Surveillance State is far worse than anything the Soviets ever created. And yet they still have loyalty of Republican voters, who are completely controlled by Talk Radio and FOX News. History will record these people as the biggest dupes in the history of Our Great Nation.
Here is what Republicans don't understand because Rush Limbaugh never talks about it. Since the beginning of the nation state, powerful nations have used "national security" as a context to invade and control the resources of lesser nations. [FYI: I enjoy immense benefits because my leaders secure the lion's share of resources for our economy, so I should not complain]. Moreover, every time a large nations intervenes in the destiny of a smaller nation, the larger nation rationalize their behavior by claiming that they are saving the world from barbarians or evil doers. Invariably, there is always a small group of under-educated "homelanders" who believe what government says.
Put simply, when it comes to giving Washington the power to do big things, like re-make Iraq in our image, the Republican voter always believes Dear Leader.
When, I ask, will they stop giving Washington the money and power to save the world? Don't they understand the law of unintended consequences? Don't they understand that Government always makes the problem worse? Don't they understand that the Patriot Act just gave bureaucrats the power to invade American privacy without making the population safer? Why do these fucking morons trust government so much.
Only a Republican would believe that Washington could end a 1,000 year conflict with freedom bombs and bureaucratic oversight. .... -ONLY a Republican....
I really don't think America cares what happens to Iraq as long they don't end up as an Islamic republic committed to the destruction of the US and it's allies, which is a real possibility if we do nothing.The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy. If they don't feel like it is worth defending, why should we care?There were plenty of Iraqis that wanted our help. I saw it with my own eyes. .
Iraq has the capability to wipe out Isis but what they lack is will and leadership. The Iraqi military with a force of over 200,000 should have wiped out Isis with it's 10,000 to 15,000 fighters. Yet in Mosul, 30,000 Iraqi troops were sent running by 800 Isis fighters. Probably the biggest problem is the military can't make any decisions without the approval of the prime minister. As any military commander will tell you, you can't turn battlefield decisions into political decisions and expect to win.
You missed my point then. That means you are stupid. And that isn't an insult, it's a fact.Do you agree with what protectionist wrote wrote? Or are insults the limit of your posting ability?
I really don't think America cares what happens to Iraq as long they don't end up as an Islamic republic committed to the destruction of the US and it's allies, which is a real possibility if we do nothing.The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy. If they don't feel like it is worth defending, why should we care?
Iraq has the capability to wipe out Isis but what they lack is will and leadership. The Iraqi military with a force of over 200,000 should have wiped out Isis with it's 10,000 to 15,000 fighters. Yet in Mosul, 30,000 Iraqi troops were sent running by 800 Isis fighters. Probably the biggest problem is the military can't make any decisions without the approval of the prime minister. As any military commander will tell you, you can't turn battlefield decisions into political decisions and expect to win.
You make a lot of sense. I'll add the point that Maliki destroyed a functional chain of command in the army by not rewarding merit and qualifications with high rank. The recruits that fled Mosul apparently watched in horror as ISIS approached and could see all their commanders got on helicopters and flee the battle before it started.
That's what happened when Maliki put officers loyal to him and not their troops in charge.
This is hopefully being corrected with the inclusive political settlement the US and most of Iraq's allies demanded. And that includes Iran and Saudi Arabia. This is a very big deal on favor of reaching stability in Iraq and terminating ISIS.
ISIS best and only effective weapon will be suicude attacks - both induvidually and in mass assaults against Iraqi and Kurdish units that won't run in the future.
Another thing is that the level of stability that came as a result if the Sunni Awakening that drove al Qaeda out with US forces in the Surge' meant that Iraq's Shiite army was not battle tested in fighting major battles with insurgents from 2009 through 2012.
Most troops and officers did not face a strong foe while the US was training and grading them.
That is entirely the opposite taking place in Afghamustan. The ANA and ANP have been on the front lines of the fight for over two years. They are holding their own quite well.
Although Saddam was guilty of unspeakable cruelty against his people his iron handed leadership kept the country together.I really don't think America cares what happens to Iraq as long they don't end up as an Islamic republic committed to the destruction of the US and it's allies, which is a real possibility if we do nothing.
Iraq has the capability to wipe out Isis but what they lack is will and leadership. The Iraqi military with a force of over 200,000 should have wiped out Isis with it's 10,000 to 15,000 fighters. Yet in Mosul, 30,000 Iraqi troops were sent running by 800 Isis fighters. Probably the biggest problem is the military can't make any decisions without the approval of the prime minister. As any military commander will tell you, you can't turn battlefield decisions into political decisions and expect to win.
You make a lot of sense. I'll add the point that Maliki destroyed a functional chain of command in the army by not rewarding merit and qualifications with high rank. The recruits that fled Mosul apparently watched in horror as ISIS approached and could see all their commanders got on helicopters and flee the battle before it started.
That's what happened when Maliki put officers loyal to him and not their troops in charge.
This is hopefully being corrected with the inclusive political settlement the US and most of Iraq's allies demanded. And that includes Iran and Saudi Arabia. This is a very big deal on favor of reaching stability in Iraq and terminating ISIS.
ISIS best and only effective weapon will be suicude attacks - both induvidually and in mass assaults against Iraqi and Kurdish units that won't run in the future.
Another thing is that the level of stability that came as a result if the Sunni Awakening that drove al Qaeda out with US forces in the Surge' meant that Iraq's Shiite army was not battle tested in fighting major battles with insurgents from 2009 through 2012.
Most troops and officers did not face a strong foe while the US was training and grading them.
That is entirely the opposite taking place in Afghamustan. The ANA and ANP have been on the front lines of the fight for over two years. They are holding their own quite well.
The original Iraqi army was fine, along with Saddam's security forces.The Iraqi Army got plenty of our help in training and equipment, but when push came to shove they were worthless when it came to defending their democracy.
