Iraq Surrenders.

[CSM]

Forgive me if I misunderstood this as a request for a quotation.

It was a comment....it implies I read the links provided (which I did). I viewed said links as sufficient.

 

[mattskramer]

Your lament was:

"Yes, Saddam was a ruthless dictator but he did keep order – now Iraq is a mess of civil factions fighting among themselves with us in the mix."

It appears that we know what DOES work in keeping order over there!

Look, without the Bush administration forethought and thinking ahead for the likely consequences, we charged in and made a big mess of things. It seems as though he did not consider the possibility of insurgents and civil war. Oh well. It is of no use to cry over spilled milk. We can still leave and isolate Iraq. Let those within Iraq fight among themselves. Get our soldiers back and protect our own border and strengthen intelligence.

 

[Superlative]

It was a comment....it implies I read the links provided (which I did). I viewed said links as sufficient.

Sorry about jumping the gun.

 

[CSM]

Look, without the Bush administration forethought and thinking ahead for the likely consequences, we charged in and made a big mess of things. It seems as though he did not consider the possibility of insurgents and civil war. Oh well. It is of no use to cry over spilled milk. We can still leave and isolate Iraq. Let those within Iraq fight among themselves. Get our soldiers back and protect our own border and strengthen intelligence.

Believe it or not, I agree with you.

Withdraw the troops and not just from Iraq. Withdraw them from every foreign nation we have. Make it illegal to provide military support to the UN. Never deploy our military folks outside US borders ever again. Let the rest of the world handle things; after all, every other nation has all the answers.

 

[CSM]

Sorry about jumping the gun.

No problem. It's easy to get wrapped around the axle in the often heated exchanges that occur on this board.

 

[Superlative]

We can still leave and isolate Iraq. Let those within Iraq fight among themselves. Get our soldiers back and protect our own border and strengthen intelligence.

And that would make the US a better country in the end?

To walk away from a mess we admittedly (to some) created?

I admit, there is a chance the US will abandon this occupation, but not until the violence is at such a level that it is warranted, and undeniably the right choice.

Until then, the US has an obligation to see this venture through to the bitter end.

 

[mattskramer]

Believe it or not, I agree with you.

Withdraw the troops and not just from Iraq. Withdraw them from every foreign nation we have. Make it illegal to provide military support to the UN. Never deploy our military folks outside US borders ever again. Let the rest of the world handle things; after all, every other nation has all the answers.

Oh please. What undue hype and hyperbole. You should know that I am not an absolutist. I did not say that we should withdraw them from every foreign nation we have. I did not say that we should make it illegal to provide military support to the UN in every instance. I did not say that we should Never deploy our military folks outside US borders ever again. I think that the war in Afghanistan was justified. Finally, I certainly did not say that every other nation has all the answers.

 

[CSM]

Oh please. What undue hype and hyperbole. You should know that I am not an absolutist. I did not say that we should withdraw them from every foreign nation we have. I did not say that we should make it illegal to provide military support to the UN in every instance. I did not say that we should Never deploy our military folks outside US borders ever again. I think that the war in Afghanistan was justified. Finally, I certainly did not say that every other nation has all the answers.

You are absolutely correct...you did not say those things....I did.

 

[Superlative]

Believe it or not, I agree with you.

Withdraw the troops and not just from Iraq. Withdraw them from every foreign nation we have. Make it illegal to provide military support to the UN. Never deploy our military folks outside US borders ever again. Let the rest of the world handle things; after all, every other nation has all the answers.

While i detect your sarcasm, I hope.

It would be rather disadvantagious for US corporations who currently benefit from cheap labor in various countries (experiencing turmoil) under US occupation, if the US were to withdraw.

 

[Annie]

While i detect your sarcasm, I hope.

It would be rather disadvantagious for US corporations who currently benefit from cheap labor in various countries (experiencing turmoil) under US occupation, if the US were to withdraw.

Hard to believe, we've retooled and redrawn corporate systems before. We could cope.

 

[mattskramer]

And that would make the US a better country in the end?

To walk away from a mess we admittedly (to some) created?

I admit, there is a chance the US will abandon this occupation, but not until the violence is at such a level that it is warranted, and undeniably the right choice.

Until then, the US has an obligation to see this venture through to the bitter end.

When is the bitter end? I have never received a quantifiable answer to this question. Is it when there is no attack in a 1 month time frame? I don’t see things changing. I imagine that if we continue on the same path, even with an increase in our military support, there will continue to see violence and death – there will be no end in sight. It reminds me of a cartoon in which Bush is playing poker with the Grim Reaper. He tosses 20,000 soldiers into the pot and says “all in”. His opponent tosses 20,000 caskets into the pot and says “check”. Iraq will never run out of insurgents and violent war factions. To explain my view in another way: For every soldier that we add, the “bad guys” will match us. This will go on for decade after decade and not get better for us or them until we pull out and leave them on their own.

 

[CSM]

While i detect your sarcasm, I hope.

It would be rather disadvantagious for US corporations who currently benefit from cheap labor in various countries (experiencing turmoil) under US occupation, if the US were to withdraw.

Not as much sarcasm as you think. I am so very tired of hearing how bad the US is from those opposed to this military operation or that military operation; I am very tired and disgusted of hearing how evil the US is; I aam so very tired of hearing about the "military industrial complex" and how much money we spend as a nation on defense.

I am ready to capitulate. The US military should be completely removed as an option for foreign policy. The American citizen (if I may use generalities) does not deserve the protection such a military as we have now provides.

 

[Superlative]

The American citizen (if I may use generalities) does not deserve the protection such a military as we have now provides.

I see your point, and it is understandable.


But for the most part, outside of Iraq, how many countries does the US occupy?

With an actual military base?

And does that base serve to protect the US people, or US interests in that region?

Its not be in the best interest of the US to let the rest of the world continue unchecked, for they may make decisions that do not have the best interest of the US in mind.

Sorry about the military industrial complex referance.

 

[Annie]

I see your point, and it is understandable.


But for the most part, outside of Iraq, how many countries does the US occupy?

With an actual military base?

And does that base serve to protect the US people, or US interests in that region?

Its not be in the best interest of the US to let the rest of the world continue unchecked, for they may make decisions that do not have the best interest of the US in mind.

Sorry about the military industrial complex referance.

I disagree and fail to see where an apology would be needed. You simply stated common wisdom. It does seem 'the world' thinks we are the source of all evil. I wonder how we'd do spending less defending Europe, Japan, Korea and the Middle East? Perhaps with some 'peace' we could exploit our own resources?

 

[Superlative]

When is the bitter end? I have never received a quantifiable answer to this question. Is it when there is no attack in a 1 month time frame? I don’t see things changing. I imagine that if we continue on the same path, even with an increase in our military support, there will continue to see violence and death – there will be no end in sight. It reminds me of a cartoon in which Bush is playing poker with the Grim Reaper. He tosses 20,000 soldiers into the pot and says “all in”. His opponent tosses 20,000 caskets into the pot and says “check”. Iraq will never run out of insurgents and violent war factions. To explain my view in another way: For every soldier that we add, the “bad guys” will match us. This will go on for decade after decade and not get better for us or them until we pull out and leave them on their own.

.......America must now devise a strategy to deal with this form of religious terrorism. As is now widely understood, this will be a long war, with many fronts and battles small and large. Our strategy must be divided along three lines: military, political and cultural. On the military front--by which I mean war, covert operations and other forms of coercion--the goal is simple: the total destruction of Al Qaeda. Even if we never understand all the causes of apocalyptic terror, we must do battle against it. Every person who plans and helps in a terrorist operation must understand that he will be tracked and punished. Their operations will be disrupted, their finances drained, their hideouts destroyed. There will be associated costs to pursuing such a strategy, but they will all fade if we succeed. Nothing else matters on the military front.

The political strategy is more complex and more ambitious. At the broadest level, we now have a chance to reorder the international system around this pressing new danger. The degree of cooperation from around the world has been unprecedented. We should not look on this trend suspiciously. Most governments feel threatened by the rise of subnational forces like Al Qaeda. Even some that have clearly supported terrorism in the past, like Iran, seem interested in re-entering the world community and reforming their ways......
....The purpose of an international coalition is practical and strategic. Given the nature of this war, we will need the constant cooperation of other governments--to make arrests, shut down safe houses, close bank accounts and share intelligence. Alliance politics has become a matter of high national security. But there is a broader imperative. The United States dominates the world in a way that inevitably arouses envy or anger or opposition. That comes with the power, but we still need to get things done. If we can mask our power in--sorry, work with--institutions like the United Nations Security Council, U.S. might will be easier for much of the world to bear. Bush's father understood this, which is why he ensured that the United Nations sanctioned the gulf war. The point here is to succeed, and international legitimacy can help us do that.

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/101501_why.html


I dont have all the answers, but Clear, Hold, Build, is a strategy that worked in Tal Afar.

 

[Superlative]

I disagree and fail to see where an apology would be needed. You simply stated common wisdom. It does seem 'the world' thinks we are the source of all evil. I wonder how we'd do spending less defending Europe, Japan, Korea and the Middle East? Perhaps with some 'peace' we could exploit our own resources?

Its unfortunate, but I think the goal is to exploit the resources of others, and to do it cheaply.

If the Government focused on the US, then we would need to tackle the problems of social security, Education, Health care, and the Environment.

I dont think any of those would get dealt with very quickly if we poured as much money into them as we do Iraq.

it would have horrible ramifications, like, the cost of living would go up, education levels would rise, unemployment would go down, and the dollar would be stronger.

But the government would have less power. Which is unnacceptable.

Focussing on homeland issues, is long term, and not profitable.

Which is the exact opposite of the American way.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Interesting.

I am not sure I would have trusted such offers either, especially since Hussein was shooting at US airplanes enforcing the no-fly zone. IMO, Hussien may have been using such back channels to buy time.

Actually, British and US aircraft were engaging in operations aimed at goading Iraq into actions which would give the Bush administration all the cover it needed to invade Iraq. As it was, Iraq didn't take the bait, and all we got were the now discredited claims of WMD's to justify the invasion of Iraq.

 

[Annie]

Its unfortunate, but I think the goal is to exploit the resources of others, and to do it cheaply.

I think you are wrong. But let's say that we should pay others a fair price for those resources we do not have here, and vice versa. No more foreign aid, in kind or indirect. Then perhaps we can focus like a laser on some of the issues you bring up:

If the Government focused on the US, then we would need to tackle the problems of social security, Education, Health care, and the Environment.

Last I saw, we were spending a boat load on all of those, enough that the government has felt very comfortable raiding the first. Never mind that though, fresh start. As I said, reduce our military to defensive, we can keep the missile shield defense going, just at home though, stop the international funding game, should have more than enough money. Not too mention, with all the peace that would be bloomin' we would all be much more serene.

I dont think any of those would get dealt with very quickly if we poured as much money into them as we do Iraq.

probably because the problem isn't underfunding in the first place?

it would have horrible ramifications, like, the cost of living would go up, education levels would rise, unemployment would go down, and the dollar would be stronger.

How much lower could unemployment go, realistically?

But the government would have less power. Which is unnacceptable.

not too me and a whole many others.

Focussing on homeland issues, is long term, and not profitable.

Which is the exact opposite of the American way.

Seriously, it has been perhaps a wrongful thinking of doing better with the world. But I am coming around to your thinking. Screw UN, ME, Africa and their AIDs problems, Europe and their wars, etc. Deal with Mexico and Canadian borders.

 

[CSM]

I see your point, and it is understandable.


But for the most part, outside of Iraq, how many countries does the US occupy?

With an actual military base?

The list is endless but here a few:

Spain
Italy
Germany
Great Britain
Phillipines
Greece
Kuwait
France
Korea
Japan
Turkey
Diego Garcia
Iceland
and on and on (wikipedia has a nearly complete list)

And does that base serve to protect the US people, or US interests in that region?

For the most part...no. They are generally there because of treaties.

Its not be in the best interest of the US to let the rest of the world continue unchecked, for they may make decisions that do not have the best interest of the US in mind.

I have no confidence that the rest of the world has the best interests of the US in mind at ANY time...bases or no bases.

Sorry about the military industrial complex referance.

My overall point is that it is very easy for foreign nations and their citizens to criticize the US; it is quite another for those same nations to step up to the plate and do any better. None have volunteered that I know of and none have at least tried. Europe as a whole ignored Kosovo, Dafur, Somalia and a host of other places as did just about every other nation on the planet. There is a lot of comfort in being willfully ignorant.

 

[Annie]

My overall point is that it is very easy for foreign nations and their citizens to criticize the US; it is quite another for those same nations to step up to the plate and do any better. None have volunteered that I know of and none have at least tried. Europe as a whole ignored Kosovo, Dafur, Somalia and a host of other places as did just about every other nation on the planet. There is a lot of comfort in being willfully ignorant.

Yep, that was my point too. Drop them, like a stone. US for United States, pay fair price for what is not available here. No more handouts, no more protection of life or military. Never should this be a 3rd world or less scenario. Seriously, no more defense of Europe, Japan, S. Korea, Africa, etc.

No more aid to any of those and many more.

It's US for US, but we will pay for the resources we do not possess.