Internet Crimes

[Procrustes Stretched]

well first off, an IP does not mean you can find anyone. In fact, chances are low.

wrong

If someone uses a public computer, or even a computer on a shared home network, like if they have several roommates all sharing the same router, you can't track down one person.

wrong again. many routers track MAC addresses and upstream ISPs log *everything* and they do turn it over quickly with subponea. also, if forensics investigators get their hands on any of the machines invovled they can quickly say whether any of the machines performed the illegal activity as most people are clueless about how to proper cover their tracks.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

well first off, an IP does not mean you can find anyone. In fact, chances are low.

wrong

If someone uses a public computer, or even a computer on a shared home network, like if they have several roommates all sharing the same router, you can't track down one person.

wrong again. many routers track MAC addresses and upstream ISPs log *everything* and they do turn it over quickly with subponea. also, if forensics investigators get their hands on any of the machines invovled they can quickly say whether any of the machines performed the illegal activity as most people are clueless about how to proper cover their tracks.

alright let's walk through a simple scenarios.

1) Someone goes into a local coffee shop, uses the free internet access to do something illegal, and walks away. Investigators track the activity back to the coffee shop. Then what? Tell me how that gets a name or address, because even IF that coffee shop can turn over a MAC address, there's no way to google it.

2) Someone goes into a local library or computer lab that does not require individual logins and does something illegal. Investigators track back to the location. Then what?

3) someone lives in an apartment with 4 other people, all sharing the same modem and router, which is in the apartment. Investigators track back to the apartment. Three of the people are running the same OS and have the same browser. The router seems to have disappeared. Then what?

4) Someone drives around a neighborhood until they find an non-secure home wireless network, and use it for illegal activities. Then what?

I mean, yall appear to be ignoring the fact that it would take law enforcement, NOT an angry lawyer or random person, to demand information from ISPs in the first place, let alone how to track people who are on shared networks, or have enough push to secure a warrant to enter a residence and take computers. So no, someone threatening you on the internet is NOT enough to accomplish that.

If it were that easy, stolen laptops would be returned a lot more often then they are currently. Here's a group talking about tracking: http://www.ethicalhacker.net/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,54/topic,1501.0/

Why is it you think that google came forward not to long ago with information that they'd been hacked, and no one has been caught yet?

 

[California Girl]

There are ways - quite easy to implement - that hide an IP address. Even LEOs struggle to track them.

 

[Madeline]

well first off, an IP does not mean you can find anyone. In fact, chances are low.

wrong

If someone uses a public computer, or even a computer on a shared home network, like if they have several roommates all sharing the same router, you can't track down one person.

wrong again. many routers track MAC addresses and upstream ISPs log *everything* and they do turn it over quickly with subponea. also, if forensics investigators get their hands on any of the machines invovled they can quickly say whether any of the machines performed the illegal activity as most people are clueless about how to proper cover their tracks.

alright let's walk through a simple scenarios.

1) Someone goes into a local coffee shop, uses the free internet access to do something illegal, and walks away. Investigators track the activity back to the coffee shop. Then what? Tell me how that gets a name or address, because even IF that coffee shop can turn over a MAC address, there's no way to google it.

2) Someone goes into a local library or computer lab that does not require individual logins and does something illegal. Investigators track back to the location. Then what?

3) someone lives in an apartment with 4 other people, all sharing the same modem and router, which is in the apartment. Investigators track back to the apartment. Three of the people are running the same OS and have the same browser. The router seems to have disappeared. Then what?

4) Someone drives around a neighborhood until they find an non-secure home wireless network, and use it for illegal activities. Then what?

I mean, yall appear to be ignoring the fact that it would take law enforcement, NOT an angry lawyer or random person, to demand information from ISPs in the first place, let alone how to track people who are on shared networks, or have enough push to secure a warrant to enter a residence and take computers. So no, someone threatening you on the internet is NOT enough to accomplish that.

If it were that easy, stolen laptops would be returned a lot more often then they are currently. Here's a group talking about tracking: The Ethical Hacker Network - Track someone using thr MAC/Physical Address?

Why is it you think that google came forward not to long ago with information that they'd been hacked, and no one has been caught yet?

Scenario #1: You are correct. Evidence OTHER than the IP would be needed to find the criminal so he can be prosecuted or sued.

Scenario #2: Most libraries DO require log ins. I'm not certain what colleges do as to their computer labs, but I'd assume they require a college ID so there must be a log in of some sort. A librarian will fight a subpoena like a dog; no one is as big a defender of Free Speech and Privacy as a librarian and we all owe them a big thank you. But in many fact patterns, the librarian will lose that fight.

Scenario #3: I'd have no trouble, using depositions etc., proving who the malfeasor was. None at all.

Scenario #4: Same as #1. The IP would be almost useless as evidence of the criminal's identity.

Lawyers who get angry over the work they do for their clients are called law students. Work is work for me, just as it is for anyone else. I am confident I can get an ISP to urp up the information I want, but an easier target for a subpeona is a the web site itself, if its servers are on US soil. I have to begin with the web site anyway -- how in the hell am I supposed to know the malfeasor's ISP without his IP?

Property crimes committed via the 'net are developing a very different body of law from crimes against persons, SmarterThanHick. I was not dismissing the avalanche of such crimes, etc. but I do not have any special skills at retrieving stolen money, etc.

I DO know a thing or two about crimes against persons involving the 'net. And I care more about your personal safety than your bank account.

I'm biased that-a-way.

 

[blu]

There are ways - quite easy to implement - that hide an IP address. Even LEOs struggle to track them.

yea any proxy server can beat local & state police, but fbi and natioanl agencies can get access to the backbone Internet logs for activity in America (and other friendly countries) and in that case unless you are chaining multiple proxies in countries where we dont have jurisdiction they will get you since they can track you in and out and throughout routers we control.

hint: AT&T controls most of the backbone

 

[blu]

1) Someone goes into a local coffee shop, uses the free internet access to do something illegal, and walks away. Investigators track the activity back to the coffee shop. Then what? Tell me how that gets a name or address, because even IF that coffee shop can turn over a MAC address, there's no way to google it.

most shops and other businesses near the shop have cameras, which can be looked at for people at & near the shop at the time. Also, MAC addresses are unique since each hardware vendor buys blocks of them for their cards, so unless you spoof your MAC address, investigators with it can at least determine the make of your laptop if not the exact model.

2) Someone goes into a local library or computer lab that does not require individual logins and does something illegal. Investigators track back to the location. Then what?

libraries definitely have cameras and depending on how often the machine in question was used I imagine fingerprints could be found

3) someone lives in an apartment with 4 other people, all sharing the same modem and router, which is in the apartment. Investigators track back to the apartment. Three of the people are running the same OS and have the same browser. The router seems to have disappeared. Then what?

They would seize and image (make an exact copy) of all the laptops in question and then search browser history, application logs, etc (do a full investigation) on each one to see if the data contained matches the illegal activity. The person would almost certainly get caught in this case unless they know how to cover their tracks on a local machine, which very few people know how to do.

4) Someone drives around a neighborhood until they find an non-secure home wireless network, and use it for illegal activities. Then what?

This is the best choice actually because unless MAC addresses are logged, it would be hard to get any info on the person. You (the investigator) could get lucky though if the wireless network connected to had other machines in use, since some machines, especially ones like playstations, wii, etc, since they often scan the network for other machines to find media to play and interact with. Anything like this could easily log your mac address plus other informationa bout your machine such as the netbois name, services running, shares on the network, network readable files, etc. Could almost pinpoint your machine exactly.

I mean, yall appear to be ignoring the fact that it would take law enforcement, NOT an angry lawyer or random person, to demand information from ISPs in the first place, let alone how to track people who are on shared networks, or have enough push to secure a warrant to enter a residence and take computers. So no, someone threatening you on the internet is NOT enough to accomplish that.

the warrant is easy and often ISPs aren't even necesarry

Why is it you think that google came forward not to long ago with information that they'd been hacked, and no one has been caught yet?

they know who did it but the people are in china and we have no legal say there

 

[Madeline]

There are ways - quite easy to implement - that hide an IP address. Even LEOs struggle to track them.

yea any proxy server can beat local & state police, but fbi and natioanl agencies can get access to the backbone Internet logs for activity in America (and other friendly countries) and in that case unless you are chaining multiple proxies in countries where we dont have jurisdiction they will get you since they can track you in and out and throughout routers we control.

hint: AT&T controls most of the backbone

I think you guys give the average malfeasor too much credit. Take that horrid Drew woman. Used her home pc, didn't think to drop the hard drive into a river after the child she had hunted suicided, never changed ISPs, and probably would not know a proxy if one fell on her.

Most malfeasors who use the 'net to commit some/all the elements of a crime against persons are not sophisticated criminals who are thinking "I had best not leave any evidence on the 'net of these activities" when they log in. They are almost always otherwise normal people who have given in to the temptation to behave sadistically because they think they are anonymous and undetectable.

Chances are, if ever these malfactors gave a moment's thought to their liability for criminal or civil sanctions arising from their bad conduct, they wouldn't do it to begin with. For some folks, especially older adults like myself who did not grow up having the 'net, the act of logging on is a hypnotic cue that they use like a drug, and the pleasure they get from harming someone else is their narcotic.

 

[Madeline]

There are ways - quite easy to implement - that hide an IP address. Even LEOs struggle to track them.

yea any proxy server can beat local & state police, but fbi and natioanl agencies can get access to the backbone Internet logs for activity in America (and other friendly countries) and in that case unless you are chaining multiple proxies in countries where we dont have jurisdiction they will get you since they can track you in and out and throughout routers we control.

hint: AT&T controls most of the backbone

My understanding is, proxy hunting is a matter of having the right software/skill sets. If the local sherriff's office doesn't have it today, they will tomorrow. This is a growing field, computer forensics, and people have a need for it. As costs come down and skills become more widely available, the average city police department and most sherriff's offices will have Computer Crimes Sections that are adequate to the task.

And, not that I'd ever actually do this, a hacker with strong enough skills can crack a proxy. In some situations, illegally acquired evidence can be used in court -- especially in a civil proceeding.

IMO, proxies are as likely to adequately shield a malfactor as a router or fire wall might could...which is to say, not much at all.

My advice to the general USMB Universe is simple:

Don't commit crimes or intentional torts on the 'net.

Then you won't need to fret about who can prove what you've written, etc. Behave in a law abiding manner, and you won't need to stay on top of new evidentiary/forensic paths.

 

[Madeline]

blu, I feel like you ought to have written this Op and not me.

I kinda sorta know the emerging law (no lawyer has internet law down cold; it is so kinetic no one can keep up all the time) but clearly you know both the law and the "mechanics".

If you are willing, may we address questions from this point on to you in further posts on this thread?

 

[SmarterThanHick]

so basically we're looking for fingerprints off of a public terminal? or a camera in a coffee shop? and maybe we can determine what make or model of laptop was used?

And that is if the person does something horrible enough to actually require expert government agencies or specialists to investigate such a matter. Random net harassment means no one high up enough actually cares enough. But again, there's no MAC address searching that I'm aware of. So unless someone was doing something known to be illegal from their own personal computer at home, I don't see how you think this would yield much. Shared computers and unlocked wireless networks, short of some silly notion of fingerprinting a highly used keyboard, means people can acquire net anonymity if they so desire.

Now if you want to say most criminals are too dumb, I'll give you that. But the belief that anyone can be traced is wrong.

 

[Madeline]

so basically we're looking for fingerprints off of a public terminal? or a camera in a coffee shop? and maybe we can determine what make or model of laptop was used?

And that is if the person does something horrible enough to actually require expert government agencies or specialists to investigate such a matter. Random net harassment means no one high up enough actually cares enough. But again, there's no MAC address searching that I'm aware of. So unless someone was doing something known to be illegal from their own personal computer at home, I don't see how you think this would yield much. Shared computers and unlocked wireless networks, short of some silly notion of fingerprinting a highly used keyboard, means people can acquire net anonymity if they so desire.

Now if you want to say most criminals are too dumb, I'll give you that. But the belief that anyone can be traced is wrong.

SmarterThanHick, bear in mind no one is looking to prove the identity of anyone who is law abiding. These issues only arise in connection with criminal acts and/or intentional torts. I cannot get a court to issue a subpoena without first filing a lawsuit, and I cannot file a lawsuit unless someone's acts are tortious and/or criminal.

Few crimes against persons involving the 'net can be done in a single log in session, because most take a campaign of terror or an elaborate con, or both. When you log in, from any terminal, I can get someone like blu to tell me everywhere you went. If I can see the web sites you visited, I can subpoena all of them (at least all of them in the US) and by eliminating anyone whose pattern does not fit, I can identify you.

This is not the ONLY way it can be done. There are dozens. But again, no one is looking to identify the law abiding.

Once again, the best advice is do not use the 'net to indulge any sadistic impulses you may have towards anyone. Keep your on-line behavior in check, and you will not have to worry about such things.

 

[George Costanza]

BTW, tommywho, older men are very sexy. Everyone knows that.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Only $1000? Cheap stuff......

Wouldn't matter if the offer was a penny, or there was no offer and only a mere request. My answer would not change.

Offering a thousand dollars for someones address isn't a crime. Although I charge five grand for that type of information.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

i like the cut of your jib madeline. you like dirty old men?

i beez a hippie artist with a generous and fun audience, a trust account AND health care coverage.

the internet crimes you mention are so trivial that with the staffing levels available to high tech crime teams of the various agencies, they are below threshold for any criminal action.

the FBI requires actual damage in excess of $50 K to open an investigation. they were already overwhelmed by illegal pornography and financial crimes before the war on terrorism got ramped up.

victims are invariably directed to consult an attorney and seek relief through civil process.

then you also encounter privacy policies of service providers to contend with in attempting to acquire legal information about the person or persons harming you.

one crime i encounter in my e-mail and the mail of my clients and associates is the advance fee fraud letter sometimes called the nigerian 419 scam. these and the lottery scams are not prosecuted by any agency i know of. i ran into one that was actually a mass snail mailing that was reporting losses in the 10's of millions and there was no prosecution or attempt to investigate.

the extremist dung flinging monkeys that inhabit this and similar boards are non-entities pushing their grist through the mill.


grin and bear it and seek out the folks who have a little more highly refined social graces and expressive abilities.

One client of mine has terminal breast cancer and revealed that on a social networking site. Some sadist got ahold of the information and harrassed her along with 500 of her closest friends. All over the site, and from site to site. When she does pass on, she has left instructions with her husband to contact me. We will be seeking wrongful death damages, because that stress shortened her life. Should commence this year, sadly.

Every time you log on to a web site you invisibly stamp it with your Internet Protocol address. This number is unique to you, at that ISP terminal, and with it I can find anyone. Believe me, proof will not be a problem.

You're quite right about most law enforcement agencies. Nothing will be done, most times. UNLESS:

* Threats involve real life -- e.g., you receive an email from your harrasser which contains an image of your home. They had to drive by your house to take that photo.

* Real life impact is severe. In at least two cases of suicide, the harrasser is sitting in prison now. More will be joining them shortly.

Anyone who comes onto a political message board with delicate little feelings should get off it -- that was an unwise decision. This is not a great place for the faint of heart, and I am not advocating we all commence suing anyone here who insults us.

But we CAN sue anyone who threatens us. Successfully. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

Are ya feeling me yet, the USMB-er who inspired this thread?

BTW, tommywho, older men are very sexy. Everyone knows that.

*Winks*

She has terminal breast cancer her death is pretty much inevitable, you will not get a dime in a wrongful death case, for the simple fact she has TERMINAL CANCER!! And you cannot prove her stress wasn't related to the fact that her end is near. I'd argue you cannot prove that she was even under stress, stress in my opinion is subjective.

If you are an attorney then you are not a very good one. IMO

 

[Madeline]

Only $1000? Cheap stuff......

Wouldn't matter if the offer was a penny, or there was no offer and only a mere request. My answer would not change.

Offering a thousand dollars for someones address isn't a crime. Although I charge five grand for that type of information.

The scenario that I envision is this: You rip into me, I rip back. You get completely peeved, and offer the USMB viewing public a bounty of $1,000 for my real street address, etc.

Has a crime been committed merely because you made the offer? Probably not. Even the most aggressive ADA is not going to see enough of an implied threat in that post.

Suppose USMB-ers start posting bits and pieces. "Here's the last name." "This is a photo of her house." Etc.

Getting warmer, but without further reply from you, most likely, still no crime by you.

If you post back "Give me your PayPal account number and I'll send you $50 for that information and BTW I still need her street addy." I think you come VERY close to criminal liability.

But set aside the issue of criminality for the moment. When the first piece of real life data about me gets posted, I can almost certainly sue both you and the other person for the intentional tort of "invasion of privacy". I might could also sue you both for "harrassment"; that depends on the laws of the state where I live. Coming up with several theories to sue you both under won't get me a bigger damage award; I still can only bring one lawsuit -- but since the damages are to my sense of safety, etc. they are entirely a crap shoot. If you get the wrong jury, you can kiss your house and pension good bye, along with a goodly portion of all your future paychecks.

God forbid anyone hurts me using the information you induced folks to find and post on the 'net. If I get assaulted or murdered, you are in serious shit and "I could never have foreseen this would happen" is NOT a defense. There have already been cases such as this, and second degree murder charges have been laid against the person responsible for posting the private real-life data, even though a third person did the killing. It's called "reckless disregard for the risk of harm".

Obviously, long before USMB-ers are posting images of my home on the board, the Mods and Site Owners are very likely to take action to protect me, as your offer to pay for such data puts me in reasonable fear for my safety. The TOS here on USMB are almost certainly higher than the standards applicable to an arrest for criminal acts or a lawsuit for an intentional tort.

In short, you cannot retaliate against speech here that outrages you by holding the poster up for a public flogging in real life. You must confine your conduct to on-line retorts, and if you do not, you may could suffer something terrible.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Wouldn't matter if the offer was a penny, or there was no offer and only a mere request. My answer would not change.

Offering a thousand dollars for someones address isn't a crime. Although I charge five grand for that type of information.

The scenario that I envision is this: You rip into me, I rip back. You get completely peeved, and offer the USMB viewing public a bounty of $1,000 for my real street address, etc.

Has a crime been committed merely because you made the offer? Probably not. Even the most aggressive ADA is not going to see enough of an implied threat in that post.

Suppose USMB-ers start posting bits and pieces. "Here's the last name." "This is a photo of her house." Etc.

Getting warmer, but without further reply from you, most likely, still no crime by you.

If you post back "Give me your PayPal account number and I'll send you $50 for that information and BTW I still need her street addy." I think you come VERY close to criminal liability.

But set aside the issue of criminality for the moment. When the first piece of real life data about me gets posted, I can almost certainly sue both you and the other person for the intentional tort of "invasion of privacy". I might could also sue you both for "harrassment"; that depends on the laws of the state where I live. Coming up with several theories to sue you both under won't get me a bigger damage award; I still can only bring one lawsuit -- but since the damages are to my sense of safety, etc. they are entirely a crap shoot. If you get the wrong jury, you can kiss your house and pension good bye, along with a goodly portion of all your future paychecks.

God forbid anyone hurts me using the information you induced folks to find and post on the 'net. If I get assaulted or murdered, you are in serious shit and "I could never have foreseen this would happen" is NOT a defense. There have already been cases such as this, and second degree murder charges have been laid against the person responsible for posting the private real-life data, even though a third person did the killing. It's called "reckless disregard for the risk of harm".

Obviously, long before USMB-ers are posting images of my home on the board, the Mods and Site Owners are very likely to take action to protect me, as your offer to pay for such data puts me in reasonable fear for my safety. The TOS here on USMB are almost certainly higher than the standards applicable to an arrest for criminal acts or a lawsuit for an intentional tort.

In short, you cannot retaliate against speech here that outrages you by holding the poster up for a public flogging in real life. You must confine your conduct to on-line retorts, and if you do not, you may could suffer something terrible.

I'm sorry but you cannot sue someone for giving or getting your personal information unless it was obtained illegally. i.e. hacked or somehow stolen.

 

[Madeline]

Offering a thousand dollars for someones address isn't a crime. Although I charge five grand for that type of information.

The scenario that I envision is this: You rip into me, I rip back. You get completely peeved, and offer the USMB viewing public a bounty of $1,000 for my real street address, etc.

Has a crime been committed merely because you made the offer? Probably not. Even the most aggressive ADA is not going to see enough of an implied threat in that post.

Suppose USMB-ers start posting bits and pieces. "Here's the last name." "This is a photo of her house." Etc.

Getting warmer, but without further reply from you, most likely, still no crime by you.

If you post back "Give me your PayPal account number and I'll send you $50 for that information and BTW I still need her street addy." I think you come VERY close to criminal liability.

But set aside the issue of criminality for the moment. When the first piece of real life data about me gets posted, I can almost certainly sue both you and the other person for the intentional tort of "invasion of privacy". I might could also sue you both for "harrassment"; that depends on the laws of the state where I live. Coming up with several theories to sue you both under won't get me a bigger damage award; I still can only bring one lawsuit -- but since the damages are to my sense of safety, etc. they are entirely a crap shoot. If you get the wrong jury, you can kiss your house and pension good bye, along with a goodly portion of all your future paychecks.

God forbid anyone hurts me using the information you induced folks to find and post on the 'net. If I get assaulted or murdered, you are in serious shit and "I could never have foreseen this would happen" is NOT a defense. There have already been cases such as this, and second degree murder charges have been laid against the person responsible for posting the private real-life data, even though a third person did the killing. It's called "reckless disregard for the risk of harm".

Obviously, long before USMB-ers are posting images of my home on the board, the Mods and Site Owners are very likely to take action to protect me, as your offer to pay for such data puts me in reasonable fear for my safety. The TOS here on USMB are almost certainly higher than the standards applicable to an arrest for criminal acts or a lawsuit for an intentional tort.

In short, you cannot retaliate against speech here that outrages you by holding the poster up for a public flogging in real life. You must confine your conduct to on-line retorts, and if you do not, you may could suffer something terrible.

I'm sorry but you cannot sue someone for giving or getting your personal information unless it was obtained illegally. i.e. hacked or somehow stolen.

The very theory behind a suit of "invasion of privacy" is that you took accurate, personal data about me and put it somewhere it did not belong, so that I lost my place as just another Average Joe. Like you take an ad out in the NY Times, announcing "This woman is a Liberal and I hate her and BTW here's her street address". It is not relevant how you obtained my personal data; had me followed, hired a maid to offer to clean my house for free and spy on me, etc. Does not matter. Fact remains, that data doesn't belong on a billboard inviting others to hate on me in real life.

If you conspire with a second poster to hack USMB to get my data, there might be other torts or crimes involved. In some, USMB would be the injured party with or without me.

Do you see now?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The scenario that I envision is this: You rip into me, I rip back. You get completely peeved, and offer the USMB viewing public a bounty of $1,000 for my real street address, etc.

Has a crime been committed merely because you made the offer? Probably not. Even the most aggressive ADA is not going to see enough of an implied threat in that post.

Suppose USMB-ers start posting bits and pieces. "Here's the last name." "This is a photo of her house." Etc.

Getting warmer, but without further reply from you, most likely, still no crime by you.

If you post back "Give me your PayPal account number and I'll send you $50 for that information and BTW I still need her street addy." I think you come VERY close to criminal liability.

But set aside the issue of criminality for the moment. When the first piece of real life data about me gets posted, I can almost certainly sue both you and the other person for the intentional tort of "invasion of privacy". I might could also sue you both for "harrassment"; that depends on the laws of the state where I live. Coming up with several theories to sue you both under won't get me a bigger damage award; I still can only bring one lawsuit -- but since the damages are to my sense of safety, etc. they are entirely a crap shoot. If you get the wrong jury, you can kiss your house and pension good bye, along with a goodly portion of all your future paychecks.

God forbid anyone hurts me using the information you induced folks to find and post on the 'net. If I get assaulted or murdered, you are in serious shit and "I could never have foreseen this would happen" is NOT a defense. There have already been cases such as this, and second degree murder charges have been laid against the person responsible for posting the private real-life data, even though a third person did the killing. It's called "reckless disregard for the risk of harm".

Obviously, long before USMB-ers are posting images of my home on the board, the Mods and Site Owners are very likely to take action to protect me, as your offer to pay for such data puts me in reasonable fear for my safety. The TOS here on USMB are almost certainly higher than the standards applicable to an arrest for criminal acts or a lawsuit for an intentional tort.

In short, you cannot retaliate against speech here that outrages you by holding the poster up for a public flogging in real life. You must confine your conduct to on-line retorts, and if you do not, you may could suffer something terrible.

I'm sorry but you cannot sue someone for giving or getting your personal information unless it was obtained illegally. i.e. hacked or somehow stolen.

The very theory behind a suit of "invasion of privacy" is that you took accurate, personal data about me and put it somewhere it did not belong, so that I lost my place as just another Average Joe. Like you take an ad out in the NY Times, announcing "This woman is a Liberal and I hate her and BTW here's her street address". It is not relevant how you obtained my personal data; had me followed, hired a maid to offer to clean my house for free and spy on me, etc. Does not matter. Fact remains, that data doesn't belong on a billboard inviting others to hate on me in real life.

If you conspire with a second poster to hack USMB to get my data, there might be other torts or crimes involved. In some, USMB would be the injured party with or without me.

Do you see now?

Your home address is not private information. Property ownership is public record. Recently a radical islamic website ran the addresses of those idiots at Southpark, it was not illegal nor an invasion of privacy.

The example you gave about taking out an ad is not illegal either, you have the right to state an opinion as long as you do not say something that isn't true then no law has been broken. If you hate someoen you can legally say you hate someone , if the person that was described isn't a liberal then that's just a matter of opinion, and as I stated your home address is a matter of public record.

I've already said that unless you hack or somehow steal private information no law has been broken.

 

[Madeline]

I'm sorry but you cannot sue someone for giving or getting your personal information unless it was obtained illegally. i.e. hacked or somehow stolen.

The very theory behind a suit of "invasion of privacy" is that you took accurate, personal data about me and put it somewhere it did not belong, so that I lost my place as just another Average Joe. Like you take an ad out in the NY Times, announcing "This woman is a Liberal and I hate her and BTW here's her street address". It is not relevant how you obtained my personal data; had me followed, hired a maid to offer to clean my house for free and spy on me, etc. Does not matter. Fact remains, that data doesn't belong on a billboard inviting others to hate on me in real life.

If you conspire with a second poster to hack USMB to get my data, there might be other torts or crimes involved. In some, USMB would be the injured party with or without me.

Do you see now?

Your home address is not private information. Property ownership is public record. Recently a radical islamic website ran the addresses of those idiots at Southpark, it was not illegal nor an invasion of privacy.

The example you gave about taking out an ad is not illegal either, you have the right to state an opinion as long as you do not say something that isn't true then no law has been broken. If you hate someoen you can legally say you hate someone , if the person that was described isn't a liberal then that's just a matter of opinion, and as I stated your home address is a matter of public record.

I've already said that unless you hack or somehow steal private information no law has been broken.

Lonestar_logic, you are wrong. What's worse, you write like an eductaed, reasonable person and another reader might believe what you've written. I tell you what. I live alone so I don't have anyone's ass at risk but my own...and I am armed.

Bring it on and let's see which of us owns all your worldly goods in about a year or so. NO? Then shut the fuck up. Tort liability is something of a crap shoot, but advising people they can act out in real life against those they encounter anonymously on the 'net is so irresponsible even I want to spank you.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

well first off, an IP does not mean you can find anyone. In fact, chances are low. If someone uses a public computer, or even a computer on a shared home network, like if they have several roommates all sharing the same router, you can't track down one person. Even then, many ISPs cycle IP addresses and either don't disclose them, or can't really narrow it down for you.

But real crimes can occur on the internet. Money changes hands very readily, and can be stolen, for example.

really?