Interesting parallels with the Canadian fight for universal healthcare

[Chris]

Tommy Douglas is considered the father of Canadian healthcare....

Douglas's number one concern was the creation of Medicare. In the summer of 1962, Saskatchewan became the centre of a hard-fought struggle between the provincial government, the North American medical establishment, and the province's physicians, who brought things to a halt with the 1962 Saskatchewan Doctors' Strike. The doctors believed their best interests were not being met and feared a significant loss of income as well as government interference in medical care decisions even though Douglas agreed that his government would pay the going rate for service that doctors charged. The medical establishment claimed that Douglas would import foreign doctors to make his plan work and used racist images to try to scare the public.Their defenders have also argued that private or government medical insurance plans covered 60 to 63 percent of the Saskatchewan population before Medicare legislation was introduced.

Tommy Douglas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Diuretic]

Just apart from the main topic, what a fascinating man! They don't make politicians like that any more.

 

[Chris]

Just apart from the main topic, what a fascinating man! They don't make politicians like that any more.

That is why he is so loved in Canada.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Tommy Douglas is considered the father of Canadian healthcare....

Douglas's number one concern was the creation of Medicare. In the summer of 1962, Saskatchewan became the centre of a hard-fought struggle between the provincial government, the North American medical establishment, and the province's physicians, who brought things to a halt with the 1962 Saskatchewan Doctors' Strike. The doctors believed their best interests were not being met and feared a significant loss of income as well as government interference in medical care decisions even though Douglas agreed that his government would pay the going rate for service that doctors charged. The medical establishment claimed that Douglas would import foreign doctors to make his plan work and used racist images to try to scare the public.Their defenders have also argued that private or government medical insurance plans covered 60 to 63 percent of the Saskatchewan population before Medicare legislation was introduced.

Tommy Douglas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And, in a related story, my favorite endorsement of Canadian healthcare:

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[Chris]

I meet a lot of Canadians who are visiting my area. When I meet them, I always ask them about their healthcare system.

I have yet to meet one that doesn't like it.

 

[Luissa]

me neither!
I have a lot of canadian that come into my work because we are near the border and none of them say they don't like it. I asked a lady who is a nurse and she didn't have one bad thing to say about it.
I remember when I was twenty going up to BC to drink and these two guys were ripping on us about our health care. I don't think I have ever talked to a canadian who didn't like their health care.

 

[PoliticalChic]

me neither!
I have a lot of canadian that come into my work because we are near the border and none of them say they don't like it. I asked a lady who is a nurse and she didn't have one bad thing to say about it.
I remember when I was twenty going up to BC to drink and these two guys were ripping on us about our health care. I don't think I have ever talked to a canadian who didn't like their health care.

I hear that a great deal. The problem is not that it's ancedotal, I'll give you some anecdotals too, but the concept of healthcare insurance itself.

It should protect you form the big healthproblem and the losses it causes, such as bankruptcy. If you ask that much smaller group, who has has serious health problems- not co-pay or broken arms, you would get a different response.

"Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Rick Baker helps people, and sometimes even saves lives. He describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion—he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder—the man requested an MRI. The government told him that the wait would be four and a half months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours—and who, after the test discovered a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks.

Timely Medical Alternatives, has helped—people like the elderly woman who needed vascular surgery for a major artery in her abdomen and was promised prompt care by one of the most senior bureaucrats in the government, who never called back. “Her doctor told her she’s going to die,” Baker remembers. So Timely got her surgery in a couple of days, in Washington State. Then there was the eight-year-old badly in need of a procedure to help correct her deafness. After watching her surgery get bumped three times, her parents called Timely.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Holmes (see video below) was diagnosed with brain cancer, with her vision deteriorating rapidly, but was placed on the treatment waiting lists common to health care in socialist countries. While the average wait time for many procedures can run 18 months or more, Holmes actually made out pretty good by only having to wait 6 months for surgery for her brain tumor.
Rather than wait like a good little subject, she came to the States and got the health care she needed within three weeks. You know, the United States health care system liberals claim is so broken it must be replaced with a government system…you know, kinda like the one in Canada.
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/06/where-can-americans-go-for-treatment-under-govt-health-care/


Minor problem: Canada

Major health problem: get to the US of A!

 

[Old Rocks]

Really? Then why do we have a death rate of 40 per one hundred thousand children from respitory diseases, but Canada has less than 1 per one hundred thousand. Do we love our children less? Or is it that most young families are at entry level jobs with no health insurance?

I constantly read the Conservatives horror stories concerning other nations Health Care Systems. Then look at the stats, when even little Costa Rica has much better stats than we do, and have to wonder what it is that they are pushing.

 

[editec]

Anyone living in the border of Canada notice the Canadian refugees fleeing into the USA to take advantage of our wonderful heath care systems?

No?

Me, neither.

Another Republican myth shot down in flames by reality.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Anyone living in the border of Canada notice the Canadian refugees fleeing into the USA to take advantage of our wonderful heath care systems?

No?

Me, neither.

Another Republican myth shot down in flames by reality.

Then how about you read my post just above for enlightenment.

 

[Luissa]

Anyone living in the border of Canada notice the Canadian refugees fleeing into the USA to take advantage of our wonderful heath care systems?

No?

Me, neither.

Another Republican myth shot down in flames by reality.

I live about two hours away from the border and if they live on the eastside of BC or Alberta this is where they would come. THe only case I have heard of was a Pregnant women coming here because we have a certain specialist and since she lived in Nelson which is three hours away she came here. Vancouver BC would have been over six hours away for her. I am sure there are more from the border towns that come down here because they are smaller towns and we have one the top hospitals in the region.


I can say I have heard of more people from here going up to Canada to get prescriptions and laser eye surgerory.

 

[Toro]

Generally, Canadians are happy with Medicare.

The way the Right in America is scaring people about their healthcare being taken away is how the Left scares people in Canada about their healthcare being taken away.

 

[Luissa]

me neither!
I have a lot of canadian that come into my work because we are near the border and none of them say they don't like it. I asked a lady who is a nurse and she didn't have one bad thing to say about it.
I remember when I was twenty going up to BC to drink and these two guys were ripping on us about our health care. I don't think I have ever talked to a canadian who didn't like their health care.

I hear that a great deal. The problem is not that it's ancedotal, I'll give you some anecdotals too, but the concept of healthcare insurance itself.

It should protect you form the big healthproblem and the losses it causes, such as bankruptcy. If you ask that much smaller group, who has has serious health problems- not co-pay or broken arms, you would get a different response.

"Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Rick Baker helps people, and sometimes even saves lives. He describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion—he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder—the man requested an MRI. The government told him that the wait would be four and a half months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours—and who, after the test discovered a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks.

Timely Medical Alternatives, has helped—people like the elderly woman who needed vascular surgery for a major artery in her abdomen and was promised prompt care by one of the most senior bureaucrats in the government, who never called back. “Her doctor told her she’s going to die,” Baker remembers. So Timely got her surgery in a couple of days, in Washington State. Then there was the eight-year-old badly in need of a procedure to help correct her deafness. After watching her surgery get bumped three times, her parents called Timely.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Holmes (see video below) was diagnosed with brain cancer, with her vision deteriorating rapidly, but was placed on the treatment waiting lists common to health care in socialist countries. While the average wait time for many procedures can run 18 months or more, Holmes actually made out pretty good by only having to wait 6 months for surgery for her brain tumor.
Rather than wait like a good little subject, she came to the States and got the health care she needed within three weeks. You know, the United States health care system liberals claim is so broken it must be replaced with a government system…you know, kinda like the one in Canada.
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/06/where-can-americans-go-for-treatment-under-govt-health-care/


Minor problem: Canada

Major health problem: get to the US of A!

why don't you google how many people don't recieve certain cancer treatments because they don't have the money. I would rather wait six months to recieve a treatment then not recieve it at all because I couldn't afford it.
I bet you also never hear about people going without needed prescriptions because they can't afford them in canada either.

 

[PoliticalChic]

me neither!
I have a lot of canadian that come into my work because we are near the border and none of them say they don't like it. I asked a lady who is a nurse and she didn't have one bad thing to say about it.
I remember when I was twenty going up to BC to drink and these two guys were ripping on us about our health care. I don't think I have ever talked to a canadian who didn't like their health care.

I hear that a great deal. The problem is not that it's ancedotal, I'll give you some anecdotals too, but the concept of healthcare insurance itself.

It should protect you form the big healthproblem and the losses it causes, such as bankruptcy. If you ask that much smaller group, who has has serious health problems- not co-pay or broken arms, you would get a different response.

"Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Rick Baker helps people, and sometimes even saves lives. He describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion—he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder—the man requested an MRI. The government told him that the wait would be four and a half months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours—and who, after the test discovered a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks.

Timely Medical Alternatives, has helped—people like the elderly woman who needed vascular surgery for a major artery in her abdomen and was promised prompt care by one of the most senior bureaucrats in the government, who never called back. “Her doctor told her she’s going to die,” Baker remembers. So Timely got her surgery in a couple of days, in Washington State. Then there was the eight-year-old badly in need of a procedure to help correct her deafness. After watching her surgery get bumped three times, her parents called Timely.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Holmes (see video below) was diagnosed with brain cancer, with her vision deteriorating rapidly, but was placed on the treatment waiting lists common to health care in socialist countries. While the average wait time for many procedures can run 18 months or more, Holmes actually made out pretty good by only having to wait 6 months for surgery for her brain tumor.
Rather than wait like a good little subject, she came to the States and got the health care she needed within three weeks. You know, the United States health care system liberals claim is so broken it must be replaced with a government system…you know, kinda like the one in Canada.
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/06/where-can-americans-go-for-treatment-under-govt-health-care/


Minor problem: Canada

Major health problem: get to the US of A!

why don't you google how many people don't recieve certain cancer treatments because they don't have the money. I would rather wait six months to recieve a treatment then not recieve it at all because I couldn't afford it.
I bet you also never hear about people going without needed prescriptions because they can't afford them in canada either.

How about you research the survival rates for every cancer in the US and Canada.

 

[Vast LWC]

me neither!
I have a lot of canadian that come into my work because we are near the border and none of them say they don't like it. I asked a lady who is a nurse and she didn't have one bad thing to say about it.
I remember when I was twenty going up to BC to drink and these two guys were ripping on us about our health care. I don't think I have ever talked to a canadian who didn't like their health care.

I hear that a great deal. The problem is not that it's ancedotal, I'll give you some anecdotals too, but the concept of healthcare insurance itself.

It should protect you form the big healthproblem and the losses it causes, such as bankruptcy. If you ask that much smaller group, who has has serious health problems- not co-pay or broken arms, you would get a different response.

"Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Rick Baker helps people, and sometimes even saves lives. He describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion—he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder—the man requested an MRI. The government told him that the wait would be four and a half months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours—and who, after the test discovered a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks.

Timely Medical Alternatives, has helped—people like the elderly woman who needed vascular surgery for a major artery in her abdomen and was promised prompt care by one of the most senior bureaucrats in the government, who never called back. “Her doctor told her she’s going to die,” Baker remembers. So Timely got her surgery in a couple of days, in Washington State. Then there was the eight-year-old badly in need of a procedure to help correct her deafness. After watching her surgery get bumped three times, her parents called Timely.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Holmes (see video below) was diagnosed with brain cancer, with her vision deteriorating rapidly, but was placed on the treatment waiting lists common to health care in socialist countries. While the average wait time for many procedures can run 18 months or more, Holmes actually made out pretty good by only having to wait 6 months for surgery for her brain tumor.
Rather than wait like a good little subject, she came to the States and got the health care she needed within three weeks. You know, the United States health care system liberals claim is so broken it must be replaced with a government system…you know, kinda like the one in Canada.
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/06/where-can-americans-go-for-treatment-under-govt-health-care/


Minor problem: Canada

Major health problem: get to the US of A!

The problem of course being that all this evidence is anecdotal and subjective.

The actual numbers tell a different story.

Both Canada and the United Kingdom rank better in health care, in general and better in survivability rates for most diseases.

And, as has been stated many times on many threads, a public option would not preclude a patients ability to pay for expensive treatments out of pocket.

There are many, many situations where private health concerns also refuse various types of treatments.

Anecdotal examples do not prove much of anything.

 

[Vast LWC]

How about you research the survival rates for every cancer in the US and Canada.

Don't bother, I've already done it:

Circulatory disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 219
United States: 265

Original Source: OECD Health Data 2003 and Health Data 2002. Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, Australia's Health 2002

Digestive disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 17.4
United States: 20.5

Original Source: World Health Organization

Infant mortality rate per 1,000 live births
Canada: 5.08
United States: 6.3

Original Source: CIA World Factbooks

Intestinal diseases death rate
Canada: 0.3%
United States: 7.3%

Original Source: World Health Organization

Respiratory disease child death rate per 100,000
Canada: 0.62
United States: 40.43

Original Source: World Health Organization

Heart disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 94.9
United States: 106.5

Original Source: World Health Organization

HIV deaths per million people:
Canada: 47.423
United States: 48.141

Original Source: CIA World Factbooks

And here's an interesting fact:

Proability of not reaching age 60:
Canada: 9.5%
United States: 12.8%

Original Source: CIA World Factbooks

______________________________________________________________________

The average life span in Canada is 2-3 years longer than the average life span in the United States.

______________________________________________________________________

Per Capita, national health expenditures in the United States are as follows, as of 2007:

Private: $3,991.00
Public: $3,429.00

Source: Dpt of Health and Human Services

_______________________________________________________________________

World health care rankings:

UK: #18
Canada #30
US: #37

Source: World Health Organization

_______________________________________________________________________

Average cost per patient:

USA: $6714.00
Canada: $3678.00
UK: $2760.00

Source: The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development

 

[Diuretic]

I suppose for those facing change it's a fair question to ask if the current system is better than other systems and especially the system being proposed. In fact you'd be nuts not to ask the question. From the individual point of view there are some fundamental points that have to be covered.

Will I get the same or better care than I get at the moment? How much will it cost me? What if I lose my job, will I lose coverage? If I travel overseas will I be covered? Can I be denied care for any reason? And so on.

For the policy makers who have to decide there are some different questions. Is it fair? Will it be effective in maintaining or improving current standards of health in the community? Will it damage or enhance medical research? How much will it cost? And so on.

It would be useful if there were somewhere those questions could be answered.

Then we could get back to arguing with each other over evolution

 

[Vast LWC]

But, as has been discussed on other threads, it is true that the US does in fact beat Canada by 3-4% in cancer survivability rates, which is important.

Canada just beats the US in most categories, but not all.

Put altogether though, Canada has better health care, at a cheaper rate.

Republicans will bring up a whole lot of factors that cause this, like illegal immigrants, obesity, etc.

But the numbers are the numbers.

 

[Vast LWC]

I suppose for those facing change it's a fair question to ask if the current system is better than other systems and especially the system being proposed. In fact you'd be nuts not to ask the question. From the individual point of view there are some fundamental points that have to be covered.

Will I get the same or better care than I get at the moment? How much will it cost me? What if I lose my job, will I lose coverage? If I travel overseas will I be covered? Can I be denied care for any reason? And so on.

For the policy makers who have to decide there are some different questions. Is it fair? Will it be effective in maintaining or improving current standards of health in the community? Will it damage or enhance medical research? How much will it cost? And so on.

It would be useful if there were somewhere those questions could be answered.

Then we could get back to arguing with each other over evolution

These are all good questions.

As for cost and care level, I tried to address this above. I'm sure there are some factors that affect this, but I did post the numbers as they stand.

Perhaps it would be good if people could all get together with their representatives and discuss this, in some sort of open forum, where people could ask questions, kind of like a "TownHall" format...

 

[Chris]

me neither!
I have a lot of canadian that come into my work because we are near the border and none of them say they don't like it. I asked a lady who is a nurse and she didn't have one bad thing to say about it.
I remember when I was twenty going up to BC to drink and these two guys were ripping on us about our health care. I don't think I have ever talked to a canadian who didn't like their health care.

I hear that a great deal. The problem is not that it's ancedotal, I'll give you some anecdotals too, but the concept of healthcare insurance itself.

It should protect you form the big healthproblem and the losses it causes, such as bankruptcy. If you ask that much smaller group, who has has serious health problems- not co-pay or broken arms, you would get a different response.

"Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

Rick Baker helps people, and sometimes even saves lives. He describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion—he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder—the man requested an MRI. The government told him that the wait would be four and a half months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours—and who, after the test discovered a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks.

Timely Medical Alternatives, has helped—people like the elderly woman who needed vascular surgery for a major artery in her abdomen and was promised prompt care by one of the most senior bureaucrats in the government, who never called back. “Her doctor told her she’s going to die,” Baker remembers. So Timely got her surgery in a couple of days, in Washington State. Then there was the eight-year-old badly in need of a procedure to help correct her deafness. After watching her surgery get bumped three times, her parents called Timely.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Holmes (see video below) was diagnosed with brain cancer, with her vision deteriorating rapidly, but was placed on the treatment waiting lists common to health care in socialist countries. While the average wait time for many procedures can run 18 months or more, Holmes actually made out pretty good by only having to wait 6 months for surgery for her brain tumor.
Rather than wait like a good little subject, she came to the States and got the health care she needed within three weeks. You know, the United States health care system liberals claim is so broken it must be replaced with a government system…you know, kinda like the one in Canada.
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/06/where-can-americans-go-for-treatment-under-govt-health-care/


Minor problem: Canada

Major health problem: get to the US of A!

A friend of mine got cancer. She decided to seek a natural treatment in Mexico. Her onocologist SCREAMED AT HER that she would be dead in six months if she didn't get chemo. She refused. She got treatment in Mexico and the cost was $3,200 dollars for life. Six months later her cancer was gone. That was 8 years ago...