Intellectual Dishonesty or a Lie

[LumpyPostage]

Nothing said online is a lie. We all know it's everybody else who's wrong.

 

[Foxfyre]

When you repeatedly reply to someone who has been posting with you in a thread, and responding conscientiously to every single point you make, and you continually reply to them that they have not considered the topic with any intellectual honesty or that intellectual honesty requires that they see things your way, then yeah that comes across as saying that person is being dishonest...




A couple of people translated that into meaning Foxy called Valerie a liar...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...ves-view-on-waterboarding-43.html#post3650107


FTR - I told Foxfyre privately that day that I understood and have no hard feelings...


I really tried not to make too big of a deal over it...

Okay Valerie, whom I like and respect very much, has outed herself which I was not going to do. It was indeed our exchange on that thread that got me to thinking about all of this and pondering whether I in fact did owe her a public apology.

I do apologize to Valerie for making an argument apparently so clumsily that it appeared to you and others than I was accusing you of lying. That was not my intent at all.

But I gently reject any conclusion that I have EVER demanded or expected anybody to agree with me at USMB. I have not. I did accuse you of intellectual dishonesty when you refused to consider my argument as anything other than advocacy for torture which it was not. And, in my mind, that was NOT accusing you of lying but rather of stubbornly holding your position and refusing to consider any mitigating factors that would require softening that position.

I do try very hard not to lie these days.

I have been guilty of intellectual dishonesty in advocacy at times however. I would like to say I have acknowledged it when it has happened, but if I am intellectually honest, I don't know that I have in every single instance.

I don't see myself as a bad person.

And I sure don't see Valerie as a bad person.

NOTE to EVERYBODY: I do NOT want to and will not reargue the thesis of that other thread here. Let's keep that over there and discuss intellectual dishonesty here please.

 

[logical4u]

Since "racist" and "bigot" have lost their bite, it is the new insult to silence the opposing views.

That is true. BUT. . . .

Is calling other members 'racist' and 'bigot' to silence them an illustration of intellectual dishonesty?

IMHO, YES!! But some people (take my mom) will see things only from her perspective. It is not that she is trying to be "dishonest". In most everything "real" she is honest. When it comes to people, she will not state facts. She will paint people as 'making a mistake', or uneducated, or doesn't know any better. IMHO, when you do the same thing for decades, chances are, you know what the result will be.

I think that is what really bothers many of us. We can see a particular issue (not most issues) very clearly, and we can tell when someone is deliberately fooling themselves. When we try to demonstrate a clearer vision, they refuse to attempt to see that perspective. It is frustrating, but not necessarily a lie or even 'intellectually dishonest'. If you are simply not capable of understanding that subject, and repeat it the only way you know it, you are holding on to a little bit of 'intellectual security' (for you). It would save us all a lot of time if people would just say: I will not look at it any other way.

 

[Foxfyre]

Since "racist" and "bigot" have lost their bite, it is the new insult to silence the opposing views.

That is true. BUT. . . .

Is calling other members 'racist' and 'bigot' to silence them an illustration of intellectual dishonesty?

IMHO, YES!! But some people (take my mom) will see things only from her perspective. It is not that she is trying to be "dishonest". In most everything "real" she is honest. When it comes to people, she will not state facts. She will paint people as 'making a mistake', or uneducated, or doesn't know any better. IMHO, when you do the same thing for decades, chances are, you know what the result will be.

I think that is what really bothers many of us. We can see a particular issue (not most issues) very clearly, and we can tell when someone is deliberately fooling themselves. When we try to demonstrate a clearer vision, they refuse to attempt to see that perspective. It is frustrating, but not necessarily a lie or even 'intellectually dishonest'. If you are simply not capable of understanding that subject, and repeat it the only way you know it, you are holding on to a little bit of 'intellectual security' (for you). It would save us all a lot of time if people would just say: I will not look at it any other way.

As you explained it, then okay. It IS intellectual dishonesty if we are going with my definition of that. And I can't fault your logic.

 

[Ravi]

Confirmation bias is a beautiful thing.

 

[Sheldon]

Intellectual dishonesty = lying to yourself

 

[Foxfyre]

Intellectual dishonesty = lying to yourself

Actually some form of that should have been on the list. We can be intellectually dishonest even to ourselves.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The thread title is a false dichotomy imo. Intellectual dishonesty IS a lie, just that the lie is internal.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Depends on intent.

If I make something up b/c it's funny; I'm telling a joke
If I make something up to rile another poster; I'm flaming
If I make something up b/c I can't admit I'm wrong; I'm lying

Also left and right have different opionions and opinions affect what you think is true.

ex;
I say; water is wet.
You say; No, it's just water, water can't be wet.

Are we both right or is one of us lying?

 

[Foxfyre]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The thread title is a false dichotomy imo. Intellectual dishonesty IS a lie, just that the lie is internal.

So you dismiss all the bullet points in the OP as invalid?

I am willing to listen. Make a good argument for why your definition is better than mine. Or why my definition is invalid.

 

[Ravi]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The thread title is a false dichotomy imo. Intellectual dishonesty IS a lie, just that the lie is internal.

No offense, but you seem obsessed with false dichotomies.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The thread title is a false dichotomy imo. Intellectual dishonesty IS a lie, just that the lie is internal.

No offense, but you seem obsessed with false dichotomies.

I have you on ignore, remember?

 

[Ravi]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The thread title is a false dichotomy imo. Intellectual dishonesty IS a lie, just that the lie is internal.

No offense, but you seem obsessed with false dichotomies.

I have you on ignore, remember?

I always forget. Hey, are you lying or just being intellectually dishonest?

 

[Sheldon]

No offense, but you seem obsessed with false dichotomies.

I have you on ignore, remember?

I always forget. Hey, are you lying or just being intellectually dishonest?

Yes.

 

[Foxfyre]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The thread title is a false dichotomy imo. Intellectual dishonesty IS a lie, just that the lie is internal.

Okay I see your point.

My thesis in a nutshell, however,--I think--is that if you do not intend to be untruthful, it is not a lie.

When people really believed the Earth was flat, it was a lie, but they weren't liars when they told the lie.

A mistake is not intended to be a mistake.

Error is not intended to be an error.

And intellectual dishonesty is not intended to be a lie.

 

[Foxfyre]

Depends on intent.

If I make something up b/c it's funny; I'm telling a joke
If I make something up to rile another poster; I'm flaming
If I make something up b/c I can't admit I'm wrong; I'm lying

Also left and right have different opionions and opinions affect what you think is true.

ex;
I say; water is wet.
You say; No, it's just water, water can't be wet.

Are we both right or is one of us lying?

It has always been my opinion that two people can strongly disagree on something and neither be evil. Or even necessarily wrong.

But somewhere in there, one or both will be intellectually dishonest if they continue to insist that the other person is wrong.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Depends on intent.

If I make something up b/c it's funny; I'm telling a joke
If I make something up to rile another poster; I'm flaming
If I make something up b/c I can't admit I'm wrong; I'm lying

Also left and right have different opionions and opinions affect what you think is true.

ex;
I say; water is wet.
You say; No, it's just water, water can't be wet.

Are we both right or is one of us lying?

It has always been my opinion that two people can strongly disagree on something and neither be evil. Or even necessarily wrong.

But somewhere in there, one or both will be intellectually dishonest if they continue to insist that the other person is wrong.

Aside from my current wife.

every woman that I have ever known, once she has learned that she is wrong, will change the subject.

Can anyone give me some incite into why?

 

[Foxfyre]

Depends on intent.

If I make something up b/c it's funny; I'm telling a joke
If I make something up to rile another poster; I'm flaming
If I make something up b/c I can't admit I'm wrong; I'm lying

Also left and right have different opionions and opinions affect what you think is true.

ex;
I say; water is wet.
You say; No, it's just water, water can't be wet.

Are we both right or is one of us lying?

It has always been my opinion that two people can strongly disagree on something and neither be evil. Or even necessarily wrong.

But somewhere in there, one or both will be intellectually dishonest if they continue to insist that the other person is wrong.

Aside from my current wife.

every woman that I have ever known, once she has learned that she is wrong, will change the subject.

Can anyone give me some incite into why?

Well, I won't say that your implied evaluation of all women is correct and I KNOW that men are not immune to that particular phenomenon, but intellectual dishonesty is sometimes a defense mechanism.

Probably we have all at some time experienced that terrible moment in the middle of a heated argument in which we realize we were wrong.

The intellectually honest will fess up.

The weak, insecure, and intellectually timid won't.

It's as simple as that.

 

[HUGGY]

With all due respect...BULLSHIT!!!

People are responsible for ALL of their actions and that includes what they say, type, pass on or dream up.

Something that is not true..is a lie.

True story!

Okay. If you apply strict definition of a lie being that which is not true, I can't argue with your reasoning here.

And he who tells a lie is a liar.

But, if we are intellectually honest, does believing and repeating what one honestly believes to be true that in fact is not true make one a liar?

I do hold a strict definition of the meaning of the word "lie". And doing so I am accusing EVERYONE including myself of telling a lie from time to time. We are human beings and subject to error. SOOOooo..?? What is a liar? Is EVERYONE a liar? This is where I offer a more reasonable approach. One can pull them self back from the brink of being a liar by owning up to their "mistake". Those that refuse to do so once they understand the error are in fact liars. Just because another individual calls into question the truth of a statement it is no proof of a lie. Some lies are harder than others to ferret out and in some cases the original statement and the opposing statement are BOTH lies.

How about when the absolute truth cannot be known? Is it a lie to forward a speculation as if it is the absolute truth? Yes. That is a lie because it is an attempt to create truth based on a bias and in false support of that bias. That is dishonest and one of the pillars of the definition of a lie.

 

[Foxfyre]

With all due respect...BULLSHIT!!!

People are responsible for ALL of their actions and that includes what they say, type, pass on or dream up.

Something that is not true..is a lie.

True story!

Okay. If you apply strict definition of a lie being that which is not true, I can't argue with your reasoning here.

And he who tells a lie is a liar.

But, if we are intellectually honest, does believing and repeating what one honestly believes to be true that in fact is not true make one a liar?

I do hold a strict definition of the meaning of the word "lie". And doing so I am accusing EVERYONE including myself of telling a lie from time to time. We are human beings and subject to error. SOOOooo..?? What is a liar? Is EVERYONE a liar? This is where I offer a more reasonable approach. One can pull them self back from the brink of being a liar by owning up to their "mistake". Those that refuse to do so once they understand the error are in fact liars. Just because another individual calls into question the truth of a statement it is no proof of a lie. Some lies are harder than others to ferret out and in some cases the original statement and the opposing statement are BOTH lies.

How about when the absolute truth cannot be known? Is it a lie to forward a speculation as if it is the absolute truth? Yes. That is a lie because it is an attempt to create truth based on a bias and in false support of that bias. That is dishonest and one of the pillars of the definition of a lie.

Careful Huggy. You're in serious danger of negating your own opening post and validating mine.

But you have raised an interesting point and one that I should have included as a bullet point. Advancing what we can't know or support as truth as truth, just because we so desperately want it to be truth, is absolutely one of my definitions of Intellectual Dishonesty.