Innocents Betrayed - The History of Gun Control

[007]

What percentage of the population (that is currently law abiding) would break into our houses and rape our women if people didn't have guns in their houses?

Anybody want to venture a guess?

 

[westwall]

Maybe in the US...I wouldn't call that an all-encompassing rule....

"The public's perception is that violence is increasing, but trends in violent crime reported to police since the early 1990s reveal a mixed story. Homicide has decreased by nine percent since 1990 and armed robbery by one-third since 2001, but recorded assaults and sexual assaults have both increased steadily in the past 10 years by over 40 percent and 20 percent respectively. The rate of aggravated assault appears to have contributed to the marked rise in recorded assault, and for both assault and sexual assault the rate of increase was greater for children aged under 15 years, with increases almost double that of the older age group. Neither population changes among young adult males nor rates of offending seem to explain the trends in recorded violent crime, and indicators of change in reporting to police provide only a partial explanation. Based on self-reported victimisation and reporting to police, it would seem increased reporting of assault is somewhat responsible for the rise in recorded assault rates against adult victims. However, victimisation survey data suggest there has been little change in rates of sexual assault, although reporting to police by women seems to have increased. Victimisation survey data also do not illuminate the most significant recorded increase in violent victimisation, against children, as they are collected less frequently and only apply to those aged at least over 15 years. The paper speculates that the rise could be due to better public understanding of child protection issues and increased reporting due to public awareness of what constitutes physical and sexual assault - especially within the family - but this requires further investigation to examine how many recorded violent crimes against children relate to current and/or past events and of the relationship to the offender.

Judy Putt
General Manager, Research"


Australian Institute of Criminology - Trends in violent crime

From your link, which suggests violent crime is at the same rate it has always been, but people are just reporting it more..

Recorded rates of both assault and sexual assault have followed a sustained upward trend since the early 1990s. A simultaneous increase in the reporting of assault suggests this is somewhat responsible for the rise in assault rates.

Yes, this is a government report that is attempting to reduce the very real perception (and actual fact) that crime is on the increase since guns were banned in Oz. You were a copper, what do you think the likleyhood is, that the 40% increase in assault and the 20% increase in rapes, is due solely to more reporting of the crimes.

Be honest.

 

[westwall]

What percentage of the population (that is currently law abiding) would break into our houses and rape our women if people didn't have guns in their houses?

Anybody want to venture a guess?

law abiding people DON'T do that sort of thing. Just like criminals don't follow gun laws.
80% of all violent crime is perpetrated by less then 10% of the criminal population according to criminologists studies. That's why, when lots of gangbangers are in jail, crime rates drop.

 

[peach174]

What our founders said about firearms;

Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers, 334.)

Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison)

Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Convention of the Commonwealth of Mass.)

George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)

George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."

Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose rulers are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)

Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates)

Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, 1787-1788).

Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed" (The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

 

[Dr Grump]

"The public's perception is that violence is increasing, but trends in violent crime reported to police since the early 1990s reveal a mixed story. Homicide has decreased by nine percent since 1990 and armed robbery by one-third since 2001, but recorded assaults and sexual assaults have both increased steadily in the past 10 years by over 40 percent and 20 percent respectively. The rate of aggravated assault appears to have contributed to the marked rise in recorded assault, and for both assault and sexual assault the rate of increase was greater for children aged under 15 years, with increases almost double that of the older age group. Neither population changes among young adult males nor rates of offending seem to explain the trends in recorded violent crime, and indicators of change in reporting to police provide only a partial explanation. Based on self-reported victimisation and reporting to police, it would seem increased reporting of assault is somewhat responsible for the rise in recorded assault rates against adult victims. However, victimisation survey data suggest there has been little change in rates of sexual assault, although reporting to police by women seems to have increased. Victimisation survey data also do not illuminate the most significant recorded increase in violent victimisation, against children, as they are collected less frequently and only apply to those aged at least over 15 years. The paper speculates that the rise could be due to better public understanding of child protection issues and increased reporting due to public awareness of what constitutes physical and sexual assault - especially within the family - but this requires further investigation to examine how many recorded violent crimes against children relate to current and/or past events and of the relationship to the offender.

Judy Putt
General Manager, Research"


Australian Institute of Criminology - Trends in violent crime

From your link, which suggests violent crime is at the same rate it has always been, but people are just reporting it more..

Recorded rates of both assault and sexual assault have followed a sustained upward trend since the early 1990s. A simultaneous increase in the reporting of assault suggests this is somewhat responsible for the rise in assault rates.

Yes, this is a government report that is attempting to reduce the very real perception (and actual fact) that crime is on the increase since guns were banned in Oz. You were a copper, what do you think the likleyhood is, that the 40% increase in assault and the 20% increase in rapes, is due solely to more reporting of the crimes.

Be honest.

And you are under the mistaken impression - as are a lot of US citizens - that there is a correlation between the ban on assault weapons and a perceived increase in crime.

I tend to believe that all crime in the past has been underreported, and people are quite happy to report it now.

A couple of things to rememeber:
1) There is not a complete ban on guns in Oz, only a certain type, so I can get a gun if I want to.
2) There was never a proliferation of guns in Oz in the first place. I would suggest that the number of people affected by the ban was about 0.00000000000000000000001 percent of the population, if that. IOW, when the gun 'ban' came into being about 99.9999999999999999 percent of the population didn't notice or care.

 

[westwall]

From your link, which suggests violent crime is at the same rate it has always been, but people are just reporting it more..

Recorded rates of both assault and sexual assault have followed a sustained upward trend since the early 1990s. A simultaneous increase in the reporting of assault suggests this is somewhat responsible for the rise in assault rates.

Yes, this is a government report that is attempting to reduce the very real perception (and actual fact) that crime is on the increase since guns were banned in Oz. You were a copper, what do you think the likleyhood is, that the 40% increase in assault and the 20% increase in rapes, is due solely to more reporting of the crimes.

Be honest.

And you are under the mistaken impression - as are a lot of US citizens - that there is a correlation between the ban on assault weapons and a perceived increase in crime.

I tend to believe that all crime in the past has been underreported, and people are quite happy to report it now.

A couple of things to rememeber:
1) There is not a complete ban on guns in Oz, only a certain type, so I can get a gun if I want to.
2) There was never a proliferation of guns in Oz in the first place. I would suggest that the number of people affected by the ban was about 0.00000000000000000000001 percent of the population, if that. IOW, when the gun 'ban' came into being about 99.9999999999999999 percent of the population didn't notice or care.

It wasn't a ban on assault weapons. It was a ban on almost all self loading firearms. Even farmers have a difficult time getting a permit for them. Most I know just use lever action rifles now.

 

[LOki]

Honest people having guns does not help the matter. I live in a country where the only murders committed with handguns are criminals killing other criminals. This is what strong gun control can do.

What country is that? Because I call bullshit.

Ireland.

How has handgun control reduced the indiscriminate murders of innocent folk caused by car bombing?

Personally, I'd rather that the asshats had a reason to prefer handguns over car-bombs; I'd rather these asshats were shooting at each other with handguns; I'd rather that innocent potential victims wouldn't get killed for lack of shooting back at handgun-wielding asshats.

 

[daveman]

What our founders said about firearms;

Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers, 334.)

Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison)

Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Convention of the Commonwealth of Mass.)

George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)

George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."

Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose rulers are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)

Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates)

Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, 1787-1788).

Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed" (The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

The same morons who claim the FF opposed Christianity will be along any minute to say they also opposed individual ownership of weapons.

 

[daveman]

Remember, folks, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

Anti-gun nuts want you to get robbed, raped, and murdered. That's what's morally superior.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"It wasn't a ban on assault weapons. It was a ban on almost all self loading firearms. Even farmers have a difficult time getting a permit for them. Most I know just use lever action rifles now." __________________
The federal ban has been expired for a while now. Ca. still has many unconstitutional laws on the books though.

 

[westwall]

"It wasn't a ban on assault weapons. It was a ban on almost all self loading firearms. Even farmers have a difficult time getting a permit for them. Most I know just use lever action rifles now." __________________
The federal ban has been expired for a while now. Ca. still has many unconstitutional laws on the books though.

We were discussing the laws in Australia.

 

[NoNukes]

What our founders said about firearms;

Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers, 334.)

Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison)

Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Convention of the Commonwealth of Mass.)

George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)

George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."

Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose rulers are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)

Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates)

Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, 1787-1788).

Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed" (The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

These men lived in a completely different era, What they thought about guns hardly matters today, and I am sure they would not approve of the handgun epidemic in America today.

 

[NoNukes]

What country is that? Because I call bullshit.

Ireland.

How has handgun control reduced the indiscriminate murders of innocent folk caused by car bombing?

Personally, I'd rather that the asshats had a reason to prefer handguns over car-bombs; I'd rather these asshats were shooting at each other with handguns; I'd rather that innocent potential victims wouldn't get killed for lack of shooting back at handgun-wielding asshats.

There are no car bombings in the Republic of Ireland, you are thinking of Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. And there are very few bombings there since the peace agreement.

 

[NoNukes]

Remember, folks, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

Anti-gun nuts want you to get robbed, raped, and murdered. That's what's morally superior.

I know of no one in the United States who owns a handgun or feels the need to. Where the hell do you live, and why do you have your family living in such a dangerous place?

 

[LOki]

Ireland.

How has handgun control reduced the indiscriminate murders of innocent folk caused by car bombing?

Personally, I'd rather that the asshats had a reason to prefer handguns over car-bombs; I'd rather these asshats were shooting at each other with handguns; I'd rather that innocent potential victims wouldn't get killed for lack of shooting back at handgun-wielding asshats.

There are no car bombings in the Republic of Ireland, you are thinking of Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. And there are very few bombings there since the peace agreement.

I stand corrected on the point of political geography, but you still missed my point.

 

[daveman]

What our founders said about firearms;

Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers, 334.)

Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison)

Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Convention of the Commonwealth of Mass.)

George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)

George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."

Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose rulers are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)

Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates)

Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, 1787-1788).

Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed" (The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

These men lived in a completely different era, What they thought about guns hardly matters today, and I am sure they would not approve of the handgun epidemic in America today.

Yup. I called it.

 

[daveman]

Remember, folks, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

Anti-gun nuts want you to get robbed, raped, and murdered. That's what's morally superior.

I know of no one in the United States who owns a handgun or feels the need to. Where the hell do you live, I why do you have your family living in such a dangerous place?

You keep confusing your narrow worldview and limited experience for fact.

 

[NoNukes]

Remember, folks, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

Anti-gun nuts want you to get robbed, raped, and murdered. That's what's morally superior.

I know of no one in the United States who owns a handgun or feels the need to. Where the hell do you live, I why do you have your family living in such a dangerous place?

You keep confusing your narrow worldview and limited experience for fact.

You know absolutely nothing of my world view, Kentucky, and I notice that you cannot answer my questions.

 

[NoNukes]

How has handgun control reduced the indiscriminate murders of innocent folk caused by car bombing?

Personally, I'd rather that the asshats had a reason to prefer handguns over car-bombs; I'd rather these asshats were shooting at each other with handguns; I'd rather that innocent potential victims wouldn't get killed for lack of shooting back at handgun-wielding asshats.

There are no car bombings in the Republic of Ireland, you are thinking of Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. And there are very few bombings there since the peace agreement.

I stand corrected on the point of political geography, but you still missed my point.

My point is that gun control works in Ireland. A registered handgun, and there are not many, has never been used in a crime in Ireland. The Irish Olympic pistol team are not even allowed to own guns, which is going a bit far.

 

[westwall]

There are no car bombings in the Republic of Ireland, you are thinking of Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. And there are very few bombings there since the peace agreement.

I stand corrected on the point of political geography, but you still missed my point.

My point is that gun control works in Ireland. A registered handgun, and there are not many, has never been used in a crime in Ireland. The Irish Olympic pistol team are not even allowed to own guns, which is going a bit far.

Given how unstable the Irish are after they've tipped a few back, I agree they are no better then children and should be kept disarmed. You are absolutely correct, you are all incompetent and not capable of determining right from wrong.