Ineffectiveness of the Church in America

[DCJ]

Another discussion got me thinking on this and what I'd like to ask the membership here is this:

Why has the church become so ineffective?

Despite over 80% of Americans identifying as Christians and more than 60% attending Church weekly or monthly, how do we account for the great divide in our culture between the idea of morality in Church and the one outside Church. Why can't the Church reach us in a more effective way on issues like abortion, violence, charity and good will? How many people here, on this forum, can tell us that they are Christians? And once they do tell us that, I don't suppose we will find repeated and sustained incidents of vulgarity, profanity and ill will left here in their wake, right?

Why do we leave our values in the pews?

Values??? Maybe that is part of the problem............

The list is endless but IMHO the problem is as basic as it can get, once off the road it don't matter much which direction you are headed.........

The great commission was about what exactly??? It wasn't about winning republicans or teabaggers now was it??

It was not about "values" now was it.........

Many have far, far, far more in common w/ the judgmental Sanhedrin & Ananias, than they do w/ the teaching of the Christ.............

 

[Foxfyre]

Then again, this weekend I will be delivering a large supply of mini toiletries (little shampoos, lotions, soaps, etc. that you find in your hotel rooms) to the church. These were collected by my hubby and me and also donated by many of our neighbors (mostly from our Christian neighbors but also including the Jewish family across the street and the Muslim family down the block.)

These will be added to a large stockpile that our church has been collecting all year as well as several hundred wheelchairs plus walkers and other such devices. All have been donated and repaired and restored to useful condition by volunteers using their own time, talent, and money to do it. They will soon be shipped to a rural location in Peru where our contingent of about 30 volunteers, most using their own money or being funded by others in the church, will go to Peru and fit the wheelchairs, etc. to disabled among some of the world's poorest people. Most of these volunteers are using all of their vacation time to do this and it happens every year with some people going back again and again because they have special expertise necessary for the project. These devices of course are provided free of charge to the recipients as are the toiletries that are a real gift to people who cannot afford or have access to such. The team will spend their entire time there from early morning until late into the night working with the people who receive the gifts. Almost no free time is allotted for free time or sight seeing.

Why do they do it? Because they feel called to this ministry and it is what they feel they must do. And when they see the wonder and delight in a person's eyes the first time they are able to move on their own in the blessing of that wheelchair, it makes it all worth it.

Does anybody else do this kind of ministry, without publicity or any other fanfare, year after year after year other than Christians?

 

[DCJ]

Then again, this weekend I will be delivering a large supply of mini toiletries (little shampoos, lotions, soaps, etc. that you find in your hotel rooms) to the church. These were collected by my hubby and me and also donated by many of our neighbors (mostly from our Christian neighbors but also including the Jewish family across the street and the Muslim family down the block.)

These will be added to a large stockpile that our church has been collecting all year as well as several hundred wheelchairs plus walkers and other such devices. All have been donated and repaired and restored to useful condition by volunteers using their own time, talent, and money to do it. They will soon be shipped to a rural location in Peru where our contingent of about 30 volunteers, most using their own money or being funded by others in the church, will go to Peru and fit the wheelchairs, etc. to disabled among some of the world's poorest people. Most of these volunteers are using all of their vacation time to do this and it happens every year with some people going back again and again because they have special expertise necessary for the project. These devices of course are provided free of charge to the recipients as are the toiletries that are a real gift to people who cannot afford or have access to such. The team will spend their entire time there from early morning until late into the night working with the people who receive the gifts. Almost no free time is allotted for free time or sight seeing.

Why do they do it? Because they feel called to this ministry and it is what they feel they must do. And when they see the wonder and delight in a person's eyes the first time they are able to move on their own in the blessing of that wheelchair, it makes it all worth it.

Does anybody else do this kind of ministry, without publicity or any other fanfare, year after year after year other than Christians?

Yes, of course............................

I might add that the smiles & appreciation is not going to always be forth coming, so if that is ones motivation-they aint gonna last long...........

That is great that you & your community are giving back

 

[Foxfyre]

Then again, this weekend I will be delivering a large supply of mini toiletries (little shampoos, lotions, soaps, etc. that you find in your hotel rooms) to the church. These were collected by my hubby and me and also donated by many of our neighbors (mostly from our Christian neighbors but also including the Jewish family across the street and the Muslim family down the block.)

These will be added to a large stockpile that our church has been collecting all year as well as several hundred wheelchairs plus walkers and other such devices. All have been donated and repaired and restored to useful condition by volunteers using their own time, talent, and money to do it. They will soon be shipped to a rural location in Peru where our contingent of about 30 volunteers, most using their own money or being funded by others in the church, will go to Peru and fit the wheelchairs, etc. to disabled among some of the world's poorest people. Most of these volunteers are using all of their vacation time to do this and it happens every year with some people going back again and again because they have special expertise necessary for the project. These devices of course are provided free of charge to the recipients as are the toiletries that are a real gift to people who cannot afford or have access to such. The team will spend their entire time there from early morning until late into the night working with the people who receive the gifts. Almost no free time is allotted for free time or sight seeing.

Why do they do it? Because they feel called to this ministry and it is what they feel they must do. And when they see the wonder and delight in a person's eyes the first time they are able to move on their own in the blessing of that wheelchair, it makes it all worth it.

Does anybody else do this kind of ministry, without publicity or any other fanfare, year after year after year other than Christians?

Yes, of course............................

I might add that the smiles & appreciation is not going to always be forth coming, so if that is ones motivation-they aint gonna last long...........

That is great that you & your community are giving back

Last year the wheelchairs arrived in Peru but were impounded at the docks due to some kind of new legal requirement/snafu. It took two days for the volunteers to deal with bureaucrats and unravel red tape to get the wheel chairs released and then arrange for transportation into the mountains. That left them so little time to work with the recipients of the chairs that the volunteers were running on four hours or less of sleep a night. They all came home exhausted and sick. But happy.

 

[catzmeow]

Does anybody else do this kind of ministry, without publicity or any other fanfare, year after year after year other than Christians?

The Rotary Club?
The Lions Club?
The American Legion?

There are all kinds of civic organizations who do this sort of thing on a continual basis. Hell, down here, the party crewes that build floats for Mardi Gras also spend their time on volunteering and charitable pursuits.

I think you really need to get out more.

Another thought...if they're doing it without publicity and fanfare, that would explain your lack of familiarity with it, no?

 

[Foxfyre]

Does anybody else do this kind of ministry, without publicity or any other fanfare, year after year after year other than Christians?

The Rotary Club?
The Lions Club?
The American Legion?

There are all kinds of civic organizations who do this sort of thing on a continual basis. Hell, down here, the party crewes that build floats for Mardi Gras also spend their time on volunteering and charitable pursuits.

I think you really need to get out more.

Another thought...if they're doing it without publicity and fanfare, that would explain your lack of familiarity with it, no?

And are those who volunteer through the Rotary club, the Lion's Club, and the American Legion all Atheists and agnostics? Having worked in some way with all those organizations over the years, I can assure you it is mostly Christians doing volunteer work through those organizations too. I ran an organization that did a lot of good for a lot of years, and no it wasn't a church. But most of the volunteers who showed up year and and year out were Christians.

When you can point to an Atheist organization that has organized, staffed, and run a soup kichen, a homeless shelter, a Domestic Violence association, a leper's colony, a ministry among some of the world's poorest people, a thrift shop, a food pantry, or who give up the big money to work for the Salvation Army or World Vision, then perhaps you will have a better basis to judge me and the people I admire who do this.

 

[Gadawg73]

And that is pretty much the take I get, even from my own Church. The most effort I see put into studying scripture is a lot like we see here... finding excuses for bad behavior, rationalizing their acts so that they feel good about themselves. We do have one or two people that do the actual heavy lifting and pick up expired food from the grocery store and take it to the needy. But mostly, it's people looking for excuses and relief from bad behavior.

When I was still regularly attending church, and even teaching sunday school, I spent a lot of time trying to engage people from the congregation with some of the youth in our community who were really having problems, struggling with troubled family situations, poverty, gang involvement, failing in school, etc.

I was asked by the pastor to stop. It made people uncomfortable to be so candid about the problems being faced by many of the kids in our community, and the need for caring adults to make real connections with these young people.

One man felt compelled to express to my (now) ex-husband that my work had made me unfeminine, and that wouldn't it be better for me to be at home as a housewife, taking care of our daughter?

Later, because I was a person of faith and in a leadership role in a key agency in the community, I tried to create a connection between local congregations and some of the struggling teenagers in our city. With the exception of two people, every other pastor I met with was completely uninterested in having his congregation involved with these kids (and I went to MULTIPLE religious associations to ask for their help). The exceptions were the LDS General Authority for our area (Mormon church official) and a single evangelical congregation whose youth pastor was from Los Angeles, and whose brother had been killed in gang violence there. Both of them became close friends, and will always have my undying respect for the work they did with kids in our community. They are true heroes.

But, consider the Catholic Church's reaction to Father Greg Boyle. In my experience, that is the standard response to human suffering. Instead of taking to heart the needs and struggles of the world around us, the church prefers only to say prayers and do nothing to relieve the suffering. They are the epitomy of what was written in James 2:

16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Most of the sheep do not want to work. They want to be fed milk, like babies; they want to be coddled, praised, and told how wonderful they are. They want to sing pithy little praise hymns in a spacious, well-appointed building with comfortable pews. They want church to be over at 12 p.m. sharp and they will in fact start leaving if it runs over for even 5 minutes. In fact, they think that Christianity means showing up at church on a weekly basis, and not going out into the world as a living testimony of all that Jesus Christ represented. They want comfort and reassurance, not challenge and suffering and sacrifice. They see the wealth of their lives as something they've earned and which belongs to them, not a blessing from God given only so it can be shared with others.

I find that there are very few believers who take Matthew 25 to heart and have really tried to make a difference in the world. Those who do get tremendous respect from me and I consider them true heroes of their faith.

I'm sorry that is your experience Catz because mine is 180 degrees different. In my world, I see that it is almost all believers who are giving of their personal resources, their time, their talent, their very life blood to make a positive difference to people in the world. These days I am attending a congregation of about 1000 active members, and almost without exception, every person is involved in some selfless ministry or volunteer effort to help others.

You pluck the churches and the Christians who make them up out of the city or any community of any size, and I think you would have a pretty unappealing and unpleasant and far more dangerous place to live.

My experience was similar Fox and I was a member of a large church. The tradition was to send the youth starting at age 14 to Mexico and Indian reservations out west for their mission trips. This had been going on for almost 100 years. It was sort of a badge of honor to say that you were sending your child on this trip and almost everyone did it.
Now they did a lot of good in Mexico and out west but this was a tremendous burden financially as it ran $3000 for the trip and the parents had to pay the entire tab. Expense $ was raised in fund raisers.
When it came time for my oldest to go at age 14 he had played many years in the rec leagues here and I coached him and his brother in all sports for many years. We knew many familiesand young kids in the community, hundreds of them and many that needed Christ in their lives. I asked the youth minister if we could go 1/2 mile down the road and help the large Hispanic and lower income families we had in our own communities and do our mission work here. As a young man involved in the community he liked the idea and stated he and I would take this to the pastor and the church council.
Before we got there the opposition was large and organized against us. How dare we try to change tradition. So what if the local Hispanic community needed help. The government does some help for them and they can come to our church if they liked and ask for help. Many stated their desire to deport every one of them to Mexico yesterday.
I countered that our community in these times should be where our youth need to stay seeking souls for Christ and there are plenty of them within 1/2 mile of the church.
You would have thought I had bent over backwards and farted in front of them. Many of the older members stated there would be no change as they enjoyed the yearly trip to Mexico as it was warm down there and they planned their vacations around that every year. The youth minister called me that night and was very upset and thanked me for a valiant stand and professional, calm approach. Two months later he resigned and decided to be a school teacher instead of a preacher after he learned the church was spending $30,000 a piece on 4 stain glass windows for the new chapel.
The youth are seeing this and they do not like it. NO wonder membership is way down and not going up. The old folks have the $$ in the churches and the young folks have no say.
X 10,000 churches nationwide.

 

[Foxfyre]

When I was still regularly attending church, and even teaching sunday school, I spent a lot of time trying to engage people from the congregation with some of the youth in our community who were really having problems, struggling with troubled family situations, poverty, gang involvement, failing in school, etc.

I was asked by the pastor to stop. It made people uncomfortable to be so candid about the problems being faced by many of the kids in our community, and the need for caring adults to make real connections with these young people.

One man felt compelled to express to my (now) ex-husband that my work had made me unfeminine, and that wouldn't it be better for me to be at home as a housewife, taking care of our daughter?

Later, because I was a person of faith and in a leadership role in a key agency in the community, I tried to create a connection between local congregations and some of the struggling teenagers in our city. With the exception of two people, every other pastor I met with was completely uninterested in having his congregation involved with these kids (and I went to MULTIPLE religious associations to ask for their help). The exceptions were the LDS General Authority for our area (Mormon church official) and a single evangelical congregation whose youth pastor was from Los Angeles, and whose brother had been killed in gang violence there. Both of them became close friends, and will always have my undying respect for the work they did with kids in our community. They are true heroes.

But, consider the Catholic Church's reaction to Father Greg Boyle. In my experience, that is the standard response to human suffering. Instead of taking to heart the needs and struggles of the world around us, the church prefers only to say prayers and do nothing to relieve the suffering. They are the epitomy of what was written in James 2:



Most of the sheep do not want to work. They want to be fed milk, like babies; they want to be coddled, praised, and told how wonderful they are. They want to sing pithy little praise hymns in a spacious, well-appointed building with comfortable pews. They want church to be over at 12 p.m. sharp and they will in fact start leaving if it runs over for even 5 minutes. In fact, they think that Christianity means showing up at church on a weekly basis, and not going out into the world as a living testimony of all that Jesus Christ represented. They want comfort and reassurance, not challenge and suffering and sacrifice. They see the wealth of their lives as something they've earned and which belongs to them, not a blessing from God given only so it can be shared with others.

I find that there are very few believers who take Matthew 25 to heart and have really tried to make a difference in the world. Those who do get tremendous respect from me and I consider them true heroes of their faith.

I'm sorry that is your experience Catz because mine is 180 degrees different. In my world, I see that it is almost all believers who are giving of their personal resources, their time, their talent, their very life blood to make a positive difference to people in the world. These days I am attending a congregation of about 1000 active members, and almost without exception, every person is involved in some selfless ministry or volunteer effort to help others.

You pluck the churches and the Christians who make them up out of the city or any community of any size, and I think you would have a pretty unappealing and unpleasant and far more dangerous place to live.

My experience was similar Fox and I was a member of a large church. The tradition was to send the youth starting at age 14 to Mexico and Indian reservations out west for their mission trips. This had been going on for almost 100 years. It was sort of a badge of honor to say that you were sending your child on this trip and almost everyone did it.
Now they did a lot of good in Mexico and out west but this was a tremendous burden financially as it ran $3000 for the trip and the parents had to pay the entire tab. Expense $ was raised in fund raisers.
When it came time for my oldest to go at age 14 he had played many years in the rec leagues here and I coached him and his brother in all sports for many years. I asked the youth minister if we could go 1/2 mile down the road and help the large Hispanic and lower income families we had in our own communities. As a young man involved in the community he liked the idea and stated he and I would take this to the pastor and the church council.
Before we got there the opposition was large and organized against us. How dare we try to change tradition. So what if the local Hispanic community needed help. The government does some help for them and they can come to our church if they liked and ask for help.
I countered that our community in these times should be where our youth need to seeking souls for Christ and there are plenty of them within 1/2 mile of the church.
You would have thought I had bent over backwards and farted in front of them. Many of the older memeber stated there would be nochange as they enjoyed the yearly trip to Mexico as it was warm down there and they planned their vacations around that every year. The youth minister called me that night and was very upset and thanked me for a valiant stand and professional, calm approach. Two months later he resigned and decided to be a school teacher instead of a preacher after he learned the church was spending $30,000 a piece on 4 stain glass windows for the new chapel.
The youth are seeing this and they do not like it. NO wonder membership is way down and not going up. The old folks have the $$ in the churches and the young folks have no say.
X 10,000 churches nationwide.

I do understand how people get soured on religion if they have negative experiences. Everybody associated with the churches are not Christian or behave in a Christian manner. I admitted that early on in this thread. But the vast majority of people who have accepted Christ are better people for it, more compassionate, more giving, more law abiding, and better citizens to their local communities, their states, and their country.

Does that mean Atheists and agnostics or proponents of other faiths are all scum? Not at all. But I am defending the huge majority of Christians who don't show up in the papers or who aren't big names around town or who aren't attracting all the attention but who are making an amazing difference.

And as for those youth? Our AWANA group at our church, one of many in the area, is pulling in 400 kids, only about 10% coming from our own congregation. Our church youth group, separate from AWANA, is 100 teenagers strong and growing. And these are all good, smart, service minded kids that will accomplish great things.

I'm sorry that I can't see Christianity as the huge failure its critics want it to be. It just isn't.

 

[Gadawg73]

I'm sorry that is your experience Catz because mine is 180 degrees different. In my world, I see that it is almost all believers who are giving of their personal resources, their time, their talent, their very life blood to make a positive difference to people in the world. These days I am attending a congregation of about 1000 active members, and almost without exception, every person is involved in some selfless ministry or volunteer effort to help others.

You pluck the churches and the Christians who make them up out of the city or any community of any size, and I think you would have a pretty unappealing and unpleasant and far more dangerous place to live.

My experience was similar Fox and I was a member of a large church. The tradition was to send the youth starting at age 14 to Mexico and Indian reservations out west for their mission trips. This had been going on for almost 100 years. It was sort of a badge of honor to say that you were sending your child on this trip and almost everyone did it.
Now they did a lot of good in Mexico and out west but this was a tremendous burden financially as it ran $3000 for the trip and the parents had to pay the entire tab. Expense $ was raised in fund raisers.
When it came time for my oldest to go at age 14 he had played many years in the rec leagues here and I coached him and his brother in all sports for many years. I asked the youth minister if we could go 1/2 mile down the road and help the large Hispanic and lower income families we had in our own communities. As a young man involved in the community he liked the idea and stated he and I would take this to the pastor and the church council.
Before we got there the opposition was large and organized against us. How dare we try to change tradition. So what if the local Hispanic community needed help. The government does some help for them and they can come to our church if they liked and ask for help.
I countered that our community in these times should be where our youth need to seeking souls for Christ and there are plenty of them within 1/2 mile of the church.
You would have thought I had bent over backwards and farted in front of them. Many of the older memeber stated there would be nochange as they enjoyed the yearly trip to Mexico as it was warm down there and they planned their vacations around that every year. The youth minister called me that night and was very upset and thanked me for a valiant stand and professional, calm approach. Two months later he resigned and decided to be a school teacher instead of a preacher after he learned the church was spending $30,000 a piece on 4 stain glass windows for the new chapel.
The youth are seeing this and they do not like it. NO wonder membership is way down and not going up. The old folks have the $$ in the churches and the young folks have no say.
X 10,000 churches nationwide.

I do understand how people get soured on religion if they have negative experiences. Everybody associated with the churches are not Christian or behave in a Christian manner. I admitted that early on in this thread. But the vast majority of people who have accepted Christ are better people for it, more compassionate, more giving, more law abiding, and better citizens to their local communities, their states, and their country.

Does that mean Atheists and agnostics or proponents of other faiths are all scum? Not at all. But I am defending the huge majority of Christians who don't show up in the papers or who aren't big names around town or who aren't attracting all the attention but who are making an amazing difference.

And as for those youth? Our AWANA group at our church, one of many in the area, is pulling in 400 kids, only about 10% coming from our own congregation. Our church youth group, separate from AWANA, is 100 teenagers strong and growing. And these are all good, smart, service minded kids that will accomplish great things.

I'm sorry that I can't see Christianity as the huge failure its critics want it to be. It just isn't.

Never said it was a failure. When they quit being Christlike and focus on doctrine the youth see it and it fails.
I go to a Lutheran church some now. We bought an abandoned church after renting space in commercial buildings. We do not have a building fund. We do not pass the plate and leave a box in the back for donations, most in cash because we do not donate for the tax deduction. The pastor is not a full time job and we have half a dozen of them. It is absurd for the large churches to have a 300K budget for pastorial staff when there are MANY called to God that would do it for free. That has to change for the church to grow. We have an open door policy as Christ would have done and do not label folks different than us as sinners. The amount of youth that come is unbelievable. Almost all of us went to a large church at one time.
Of course we were labeled as critics of Christianity at the last church. The problem is Fox the church NEEDS criticism. They are not listening to it now as the overwhelming majority of the criticism directed at the Christian church IS FROM CHRISTIANS.
Jesus would have listened. The pay to pray crowd now are not. The professional salaried preachers need to go, and soon.

 

[DCJ]

Then again, this weekend I will be delivering a large supply of mini toiletries (little shampoos, lotions, soaps, etc. that you find in your hotel rooms) to the church. These were collected by my hubby and me and also donated by many of our neighbors (mostly from our Christian neighbors but also including the Jewish family across the street and the Muslim family down the block.)

These will be added to a large stockpile that our church has been collecting all year as well as several hundred wheelchairs plus walkers and other such devices. All have been donated and repaired and restored to useful condition by volunteers using their own time, talent, and money to do it. They will soon be shipped to a rural location in Peru where our contingent of about 30 volunteers, most using their own money or being funded by others in the church, will go to Peru and fit the wheelchairs, etc. to disabled among some of the world's poorest people. Most of these volunteers are using all of their vacation time to do this and it happens every year with some people going back again and again because they have special expertise necessary for the project. These devices of course are provided free of charge to the recipients as are the toiletries that are a real gift to people who cannot afford or have access to such. The team will spend their entire time there from early morning until late into the night working with the people who receive the gifts. Almost no free time is allotted for free time or sight seeing.

Why do they do it? Because they feel called to this ministry and it is what they feel they must do. And when they see the wonder and delight in a person's eyes the first time they are able to move on their own in the blessing of that wheelchair, it makes it all worth it.

Does anybody else do this kind of ministry, without publicity or any other fanfare, year after year after year other than Christians?

Yes, of course............................

I might add that the smiles & appreciation is not going to always be forth coming, so if that is ones motivation-they aint gonna last long...........

That is great that you & your community are giving back

Last year the wheelchairs arrived in Peru but were impounded at the docks due to some kind of new legal requirement/snafu. It took two days for the volunteers to deal with bureaucrats and unravel red tape to get the wheel chairs released and then arrange for transportation into the mountains. That left them so little time to work with the recipients of the chairs that the volunteers were running on four hours or less of sleep a night. They all came home exhausted and sick. But happy.

Awesome...........

On Saturday I am going to go help @ a senior center..... Not sure what I will do, I have not meet the ppl I will be working w/...........

I was going to do habitat for humanity but it will be raining.........

 

[Foxfyre]

My experience was similar Fox and I was a member of a large church. The tradition was to send the youth starting at age 14 to Mexico and Indian reservations out west for their mission trips. This had been going on for almost 100 years. It was sort of a badge of honor to say that you were sending your child on this trip and almost everyone did it.
Now they did a lot of good in Mexico and out west but this was a tremendous burden financially as it ran $3000 for the trip and the parents had to pay the entire tab. Expense $ was raised in fund raisers.
When it came time for my oldest to go at age 14 he had played many years in the rec leagues here and I coached him and his brother in all sports for many years. I asked the youth minister if we could go 1/2 mile down the road and help the large Hispanic and lower income families we had in our own communities. As a young man involved in the community he liked the idea and stated he and I would take this to the pastor and the church council.
Before we got there the opposition was large and organized against us. How dare we try to change tradition. So what if the local Hispanic community needed help. The government does some help for them and they can come to our church if they liked and ask for help.
I countered that our community in these times should be where our youth need to seeking souls for Christ and there are plenty of them within 1/2 mile of the church.
You would have thought I had bent over backwards and farted in front of them. Many of the older memeber stated there would be nochange as they enjoyed the yearly trip to Mexico as it was warm down there and they planned their vacations around that every year. The youth minister called me that night and was very upset and thanked me for a valiant stand and professional, calm approach. Two months later he resigned and decided to be a school teacher instead of a preacher after he learned the church was spending $30,000 a piece on 4 stain glass windows for the new chapel.
The youth are seeing this and they do not like it. NO wonder membership is way down and not going up. The old folks have the $$ in the churches and the young folks have no say.
X 10,000 churches nationwide.

I do understand how people get soured on religion if they have negative experiences. Everybody associated with the churches are not Christian or behave in a Christian manner. I admitted that early on in this thread. But the vast majority of people who have accepted Christ are better people for it, more compassionate, more giving, more law abiding, and better citizens to their local communities, their states, and their country.

Does that mean Atheists and agnostics or proponents of other faiths are all scum? Not at all. But I am defending the huge majority of Christians who don't show up in the papers or who aren't big names around town or who aren't attracting all the attention but who are making an amazing difference.

And as for those youth? Our AWANA group at our church, one of many in the area, is pulling in 400 kids, only about 10% coming from our own congregation. Our church youth group, separate from AWANA, is 100 teenagers strong and growing. And these are all good, smart, service minded kids that will accomplish great things.

I'm sorry that I can't see Christianity as the huge failure its critics want it to be. It just isn't.

Never said it was a failure. When they quit being Christlike and focus on doctrine the youth see it and it fails.
I go to a Lutheran church some now. We bought an abandoned church after renting space in commercial buildings. We do not have a building fund. We do not pass the plate and leave a box in the back for donations, most in cash because we do not donate for the tax deduction. The pastor is not a full time job and we have half a dozen of them. It is absurd for the large churches to have a 300K budget for pastorial staff when there are MANY called to God that would do it for free. That has to change for the church to grow. We have an open door policy as Christ would have done and do not label folks different than us as sinners. The amount of youth that come is unbelievable. Almost all of us went to a large church at one time.
Of course we were labeled as critics of Christianity at the last church. The problem is Fox the church NEEDS criticism. They are not listening to it now as the overwhelming majority of the criticism directed at the Christian church IS FROM CHRISTIANS.
Jesus would have listened. The pay to pray crowd now are not. The professional salaried preachers need to go, and soon.

Carefully avoiding the land mines here, our church is quite large as churches go, but because it is we can provide services to the community that would be impossible for a small congregation. And we do have our doors wide open to the community and probably 50% of the folks participating are not members of our congregation. But we also do not criticize congregations like yours who aren't doing that or, though we are non denominational, do we criticize other congregations who are affiliated with various denominations and take a different approach to things and we cooperate with all who are willing to do so. We would see your church as terrific, for instance, and would offer a helping hand if you needed it.

But if you would criticize churches who do pay their pastors and have a large budget, how does that make you better than those churches you criticize for not seeing others as proper Christians? Is it not possible that we are both equally focused on service and touching people at their needs and equally doing the work of the Lord?

The point is that Christianity is a huge tent and has room for many differing doctrines and beliefs and traditions. I personally don't think God cares two cents about our theology, but doesn't care if we have one either. I think He does want us to be open to the nudges of the Holy Spirit to be His voice and eyes and hands here on Earth.

 

[Gadawg73]

I do understand how people get soured on religion if they have negative experiences. Everybody associated with the churches are not Christian or behave in a Christian manner. I admitted that early on in this thread. But the vast majority of people who have accepted Christ are better people for it, more compassionate, more giving, more law abiding, and better citizens to their local communities, their states, and their country.

Does that mean Atheists and agnostics or proponents of other faiths are all scum? Not at all. But I am defending the huge majority of Christians who don't show up in the papers or who aren't big names around town or who aren't attracting all the attention but who are making an amazing difference.

And as for those youth? Our AWANA group at our church, one of many in the area, is pulling in 400 kids, only about 10% coming from our own congregation. Our church youth group, separate from AWANA, is 100 teenagers strong and growing. And these are all good, smart, service minded kids that will accomplish great things.

I'm sorry that I can't see Christianity as the huge failure its critics want it to be. It just isn't.

Never said it was a failure. When they quit being Christlike and focus on doctrine the youth see it and it fails.
I go to a Lutheran church some now. We bought an abandoned church after renting space in commercial buildings. We do not have a building fund. We do not pass the plate and leave a box in the back for donations, most in cash because we do not donate for the tax deduction. The pastor is not a full time job and we have half a dozen of them. It is absurd for the large churches to have a 300K budget for pastorial staff when there are MANY called to God that would do it for free. That has to change for the church to grow. We have an open door policy as Christ would have done and do not label folks different than us as sinners. The amount of youth that come is unbelievable. Almost all of us went to a large church at one time.
Of course we were labeled as critics of Christianity at the last church. The problem is Fox the church NEEDS criticism. They are not listening to it now as the overwhelming majority of the criticism directed at the Christian church IS FROM CHRISTIANS.
Jesus would have listened. The pay to pray crowd now are not. The professional salaried preachers need to go, and soon.

Carefully avoiding the land mines here, our church is quite large as churches go, but because it is we can provide services to the community that would be impossible for a small congregation. And we do have our doors wide open to the community and probably 50% of the folks participating are not members of our congregation. But we also do not criticize congregations like yours who aren't doing that or, though we are non denominational, do we criticize other congregations who are affiliated with various denominations and take a different approach to things and we cooperate with all who are willing to do so. We would see your church as terrific, for instance, and would offer a helping hand if you needed it.

But if you would criticize churches who do pay their pastors and have a large budget, how does that make you better than those churches you criticize for not seeing others as proper Christians? Is it not possible that we are both equally focused on service and touching people at their needs and equally doing the work of the Lord?

The point is that Christianity is a huge tent and has room for many differing doctrines and beliefs and traditions. I personally don't think God cares two cents about our theology, but doesn't care if we have one either. I think He does want us to be open to the nudges of the Holy Spirit to be His voice and eyes and hands here on Earth.

Never said we were better. We accept criticism and learn from it.
Good post though Fox. I feel the spirit of wanting to help and accept others in your words.

 

[whitehall]

The Founding Fathers had the foresight to make freedom on religion their first priority. Americans get whatever they want from their religious beliefs without interference from government. Barry Obama sat through about 20 years of anti-America rants from Rev. Wright's brand of Christianity. I hope that church isn't too effective.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Founding Fathers had the foresight to make freedom on religion their first priority. Americans get whatever they want from their religious beliefs without interference from government. Barry Obama sat through about 20 years of anti-America rants from Rev. Wright's brand of Christianity. I hope that church isn't too effective.

As do I, but that church is quite unique and not at all typical of 99% of Christian congregations, even among United Church of Christ congregations, any more than the Westboro Baptists are typical of any other Baptist group.

My argument here, however, is to defending the vast majority of Christians and Christianity as making a far more positive difference in the world than do the few rogues who call themselves Christian make a negative one.

 

[catzmeow]

And are those who volunteer through the Rotary club, the Lion's Club, and the American Legion all Atheists and agnostics? Having worked in some way with all those organizations over the years, I can assure you it is mostly Christians doing volunteer work through those organizations too. I ran an organization that did a lot of good for a lot of years, and no it wasn't a church. But most of the volunteers who showed up year and and year out were Christians.

When you can point to an Atheist organization that has organized, staffed, and run a soup kichen, a homeless shelter, a Domestic Violence association, a leper's colony, a ministry among some of the world's poorest people, a thrift shop, a food pantry, or who give up the big money to work for the Salvation Army or World Vision, then perhaps you will have a better basis to judge me and the people I admire who do this.

Oh, look, now you're changing the goalposts. Nicely done. Your paradigm equates Christianity with goodness; thus, all goodness must come from Christians.

You asked what secular organizations contribute to the community. The answer: plenty.

 

[FA_Q2]

And are those who volunteer through the Rotary club, the Lion's Club, and the American Legion all Atheists and agnostics? Having worked in some way with all those organizations over the years, I can assure you it is mostly Christians doing volunteer work through those organizations too. I ran an organization that did a lot of good for a lot of years, and no it wasn't a church. But most of the volunteers who showed up year and and year out were Christians.

When you can point to an Atheist organization that has organized, staffed, and run a soup kichen, a homeless shelter, a Domestic Violence association, a leper's colony, a ministry among some of the world's poorest people, a thrift shop, a food pantry, or who give up the big money to work for the Salvation Army or World Vision, then perhaps you will have a better basis to judge me and the people I admire who do this.

Oh, look, now you're changing the goalposts. Nicely done. Your paradigm equates Christianity with goodness; thus, all goodness must come from Christians.

You asked what secular organizations contribute to the community. The answer: plenty.

It also needs to be added that it is expected that a country with a majority of people identifying Christian (I believe in the 80 percent mark) should most defiantly have a majority showing up also identifying as Christian.

There are plenty of non religious people that donate and help with cherity. The fact that you do not take notice is rather meaningless.

 

[Foxfyre]

And are those who volunteer through the Rotary club, the Lion's Club, and the American Legion all Atheists and agnostics? Having worked in some way with all those organizations over the years, I can assure you it is mostly Christians doing volunteer work through those organizations too. I ran an organization that did a lot of good for a lot of years, and no it wasn't a church. But most of the volunteers who showed up year and and year out were Christians.

When you can point to an Atheist organization that has organized, staffed, and run a soup kichen, a homeless shelter, a Domestic Violence association, a leper's colony, a ministry among some of the world's poorest people, a thrift shop, a food pantry, or who give up the big money to work for the Salvation Army or World Vision, then perhaps you will have a better basis to judge me and the people I admire who do this.

Oh, look, now you're changing the goalposts. Nicely done. Your paradigm equates Christianity with goodness; thus, all goodness must come from Christians.

You asked what secular organizations contribute to the community. The answer: plenty.

I equate Christianity as doing more good than evil. I did not equate it with goodness.

I asked what Atheist or agnostic organizations contribute to the community, not what secular organizations contribute to the community.

It is much easier to have a discussion when you do not so obviously mischaracterize and/or misrepresent what I have said.

But I do not intend to have a contentuous argument with anybody re Christ, Christians, or Christianity. I will speak what I believe is the truth. And you will continue to not like my truth or at least you have not yet liked it.

But the fact is, Christianity can point to far more good that is accomplished in the world by those who follow Christ than can any other group, most specifically those embracing Atheism and/or agnosticism. Disupte that if you can. It will likely take you awhile though.

 

[Avatar4321]

And are those who volunteer through the Rotary club, the Lion's Club, and the American Legion all Atheists and agnostics? Having worked in some way with all those organizations over the years, I can assure you it is mostly Christians doing volunteer work through those organizations too. I ran an organization that did a lot of good for a lot of years, and no it wasn't a church. But most of the volunteers who showed up year and and year out were Christians.

When you can point to an Atheist organization that has organized, staffed, and run a soup kichen, a homeless shelter, a Domestic Violence association, a leper's colony, a ministry among some of the world's poorest people, a thrift shop, a food pantry, or who give up the big money to work for the Salvation Army or World Vision, then perhaps you will have a better basis to judge me and the people I admire who do this.

Oh, look, now you're changing the goalposts. Nicely done. Your paradigm equates Christianity with goodness; thus, all goodness must come from Christians.

You asked what secular organizations contribute to the community. The answer: plenty.

All goodness comes from Christ, not Christians.

Many are able to do good because of him even if they aren't aware of it.

 

[ABikerSailor]

And are those who volunteer through the Rotary club, the Lion's Club, and the American Legion all Atheists and agnostics? Having worked in some way with all those organizations over the years, I can assure you it is mostly Christians doing volunteer work through those organizations too. I ran an organization that did a lot of good for a lot of years, and no it wasn't a church. But most of the volunteers who showed up year and and year out were Christians.

When you can point to an Atheist organization that has organized, staffed, and run a soup kichen, a homeless shelter, a Domestic Violence association, a leper's colony, a ministry among some of the world's poorest people, a thrift shop, a food pantry, or who give up the big money to work for the Salvation Army or World Vision, then perhaps you will have a better basis to judge me and the people I admire who do this.

Oh, look, now you're changing the goalposts. Nicely done. Your paradigm equates Christianity with goodness; thus, all goodness must come from Christians.

You asked what secular organizations contribute to the community. The answer: plenty.

I equate Christianity as doing more good than evil. I did not equate it with goodness.

I asked what Atheist or agnostic organizations contribute to the community, not what secular organizations contribute to the community.

It is much easier to have a discussion when you do not so obviously mischaracterize and/or misrepresent what I have said.

But I do not intend to have a contentuous argument with anybody re Christ, Christians, or Christianity. I will speak what I believe is the truth. And you will continue to not like my truth or at least you have not yet liked it.

But the fact is, Christianity can point to far more good that is accomplished in the world by those who follow Christ than can any other group, most specifically those embracing Atheism and/or agnosticism. Disupte that if you can. It will likely take you awhile though.

I can already give you one...............biker clubs.................if there is a reason to help someone, they like to do poker runs for them.