Ineffectiveness of the Church in America

[Sweet Willy]

Another discussion got me thinking on this and what I'd like to ask the membership here is this:

Why has the church become so ineffective?

Despite over 80% of Americans identifying as Christians and more than 60% attending Church weekly or monthly, how do we account for the great divide in our culture between the idea of morality in Church and the one outside Church. Why can't the Church reach us in a more effective way on issues like abortion, violence, charity and good will? How many people here, on this forum, can tell us that they are Christians? And once they do tell us that, I don't suppose we will find repeated and sustained incidents of vulgarity, profanity and ill will left here in their wake, right?

Why do we leave our values in the pews?

 

[FA_Q2]

We always have. Society at large and parents are the largest effects in our morality and, to be honest, it has been a very long time since church was really an integrated part of that. People go to church but that means little. I have asked many people that call themselves one religion or another some basic details about their supposed faith. What I usually find is that they call themselves Christian and go to church not because they actually are Christians but because that's 'what they have always done' or 'my parents were Christians.' It is sad that people will go through the motions without ever actually paying attention to what they are doing. Ask some Christians to recite the ten commandments or the twelve disciples. Very few can get those correct and this is supposed to be the defining concept in their lives.

 

[Avatar4321]

Their hearts havent been changed.

 

[Douger]

We always have. Society at large and parents are the largest effects in our morality and, to be honest, it has been a very long time since church was really an integrated part of that. People go to church but that means little. I have asked many people that call themselves one religion or another some basic details about their supposed faith. What I usually find is that they call themselves Christian and go to church not because they actually are Christians but because that's 'what they have always done' or 'my parents were Christians.' It is sad that people will go through the motions without ever actually paying attention to what they are doing. Ask some Christians to recite the ten commandments or the twelve disciples. Very few can get those correct and this is supposed to be the defining concept in their lives.

Great comment ! It's the same rationale used by the republican voting base !........my granpappy were and hiz daddie too...so I is.

 

[editec]

Another discussion got me thinking on this and what I'd like to ask the membership here is this:

Why has the church become so ineffective?

Despite over 80% of Americans identifying as Christians and more than 60% attending Church weekly or monthly, how do we account for the great divide in our culture between the idea of morality in Church and the one outside Church. Why can't the Church reach us in a more effective way on issues like abortion, violence, charity and good will? How many people here, on this forum, can tell us that they are Christians? And once they do tell us that, I don't suppose we will find repeated and sustained incidents of vulgarity, profanity and ill will left here in their wake, right?

Why do we leave our values in the pews?

Materialism.

That's the simplest answer.

 

[Gagafritz]

To the OP, what is it that you are expecting to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Church that you aren't seeing? America is one of the most generous nations in the world. We are there to help countries in times of need all over the world from tsunamis and other disasters to all kinds of things. I think that is pretty evident.
And, as for being Christian, i think the masks are off. I think most people who embrace Christianity do so in a very real way. Understanding that Christians are sinners who have received the Grace of God and are not and never going to be perfect human beings, at least not on earth.\
So, what is it you are expecting to see that you are not?

 

[Sweet Willy]

So, what is it you are expecting to see that you are not?

I'm not sure that I am expectant of anything, however I do note the divide between the behavior the church advocates and the behavior its flock emulates. The subject matter that brought this about was birth control, but there are plenty of other examples that aren't just momentary lapses of Christian judgement, but sustained behavior running contrary to commonly held Christian morality. The concept of forgiveness, indeed unlimited forgiveness, is all but lost. The idea of forsaking worldly possessions, lost. The love of money openly displayed in the constant public grief at it's loss. The idea of "do unto others.." is likewise, gone. At best, it has become "I will do as done to me.." at worst, "do unto others before they do to me..". Forgiveness for our enemies? Forget that. Non violence? Completely missing it would seem. It is not easy to spot Christian behavior in everyday life in much of the country. It becomes even more difficult to see in the actions of the nation as a whole. One person's answer recently, when asked how we might go about changing this and making the Church more effective, was TO START A CIVIL WAR. Really? You believe that the way to solve our crisis of values is to go to war? I was appalled, quite frankly, but I am often appalled at the callous and violent suggestions of folks that outwardly at least, claim the most Christian morality.

I acknowledge our charitable nature that is evident in our willingness to give. But that appears to be the only evidence left, in any verifiable quantity, of wide spread Christian values in practice in America.

 

[Gagafritz]

That is a pretty broad generalization and i think untrue. I find forgiveness, charity, faith, hope , etc in many churches even in my small community. I know Christian people who are absolutely wonderful people. And, i know some Christians who are still a work in progress. If anything, i find Christianity to be more real now than it ever was. That we have actually embraced the notion that we are indeed redeemed sinners. That we do not get to Heaven through good works but only by the Grace of God. So, i disagree with your assessment on many levels.
But, you make some good points. That many Christians have become very worldly. Not all Christians sects embrace forsaking worldy possessions and living in a tent. That is misguided in my opinion. But, you are right in that many of us could do a much better job at trying to embody the principles and beliefs we claim to subscribe too.

 

[FuelRod]

Because many times churches are about religion vs. spirituality.

 

[Gagafritz]

Sometimes non-Christians operate under the assumption that Christians are somehow going to be perfect people. That is a totally false view of Christianity. It isn't the fault of Christians but of the person looking in who is not understanding the basic nature of Christianity.

 

[Gagafritz]

Instead of looking at Chrisitians as people trying to be Mr. and Mrs. Perfect, you should view them as Mr. and Mrs. Former Sin Addict. Someone who was addicted to sin, found God and allowed God to help him/her change his ways but still sometimes backslides and is a work in progress day by day hopefully improving along the way.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Instead of looking at Chrisitians as people trying to be Mr. and Mrs. Perfect, you should view them as Mr. and Mrs. Former Sin Addict. Someone who was addicted to sin, found God and allowed God to help him/her change his ways but still sometimes backslides and is a work in progress day by day hopefully improving along the way.

I'm not sure that anyone really can say how one "should" view Christians. We can surely view things in a number of different ways. Many Christians say that "he who confesses with his mouth... or he that believes in me..." Although that is a really, really cheap way off the hook of morality as given in Christian teachings. We can speak in broad topics like war, and ask how a Christian nations justifies a few hundred thousand deaths over the past while. It is a difficult explanation of how a sustained campaign of violence that regularly and predictably results in the death of innocent civilians qualifies as a simple "oops... we should do better as Christians." I'd say 10 years or so is ample opportunity to demonstrate any sort of collective will to obey "thou shalt not kill" or if you're a fan of the new covenant "do unto others".

While we can point to random acts of kindness and charity, I think that ignoring the larger trends of where our culture has been of late is a rather glaring and dishonest glossing over of the acts of a supposed Christian nation. If 80% of us actually believed in "thou shalt not kill" one would think we would have managed to stop killing people so regularly for so long.

So how do we rationalize this collective behavior, as a Christian culture?

 

[Gagafritz]

I am saying that the idea that Christians are somehow perfect people is a false notion of Christianity held by many people and that is not the measure of a Christian.

 

[Gagafritz]

And, look at charities and hospitals, many which now exist because of acts of the Church and Christians.
Are there bad examples? Yes of course. But bad examples do not negate Christianity in any way.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I am saying that the idea that Christians are somehow perfect people is a false notion of Christianity held by many people and that is not the measure of a Christian.

I agree. However, we haven't heard from these "many" people here... yet. Perhaps they will show up and ask why we aren't perfect. In the mean time, I was asking about why we aren't better, not perfect, at practicing our morality as Christians. There are tons of stats about crimes and murders and indeed, our own opinions that Christianity just isn't compatible with our country. Only 38% of Christians say that Christianity is compatible with capitalism while 46% say it is incompatible. Now that alone tells us a little something. Either we should wake up tomorrow to find that a giant swath of the country has joined a commune or defected someplace OR that 46% are willing to continue working and living within a frame work that they consider incompatible with their beliefs. This isn't a representation of momentary lapses of judgement. This a fundamental lack of conviction. A lack of FAITH. Now, I don't take exception to capitalism as a matter of religious belief, it is just one of many core, conflicting principles that people attempt to hold at once. Much like "killing animals is bad.... I'd like another burger please."

So, I'm not getting at what outsiders think of Christians, I'm getting at what Christians think of Christians and what Christians can do about improving our lot. We can leave the outsiders to their own opinions on this.

 

[Sweet Willy]

And, look at charities and hospitals, many which now exist because of acts of the Church and Christians.
Are there bad examples? Yes of course. But bad examples do not negate Christianity in any way.

No, bad examples don't negate Christianity. But neither do good examples relieve us of trying to improve our communities. While Church attendance has gone up, the church itself declares that morality is sinking like a stone. Now... if you consider that for a moment, that is the Church pointing the finger back at itself. If your direct contact with people is on the rise but you say that morality is slipping.... hmmmm... See? There is something wrong with this picture.

 

[Gagafritz]

No. Not at all. I said there is good and bad. You can find many good examples of churches and Christians. In my own community our local churches are full of good people trying to help the community, help with charities, food bank and on and on. But, of course the church needs to point out wrongdoings as well and they have become more lax in that. But, a few committed Christians are far better than a lot of luke warm Christians who only go to church because that is what they always did.

 

[Sweet Willy]

No. Not at all. I said there is good and bad. You can find many good examples of churches and Christians. In my own community our local churches are full of good people trying to help the community, help with charities, food bank and on and on. But, of course the church needs to point out wrongdoings as well and they have become more lax in that. But, a few committed Christians are far better than a lot of luke warm Christians who only go to church because that is what they always did.

Ok, maybe we have something here to flesh out.

We do see Churches active in communities and good people doing good things. My question though is why this does not translate to an overall influence in the country. If Johnny's mom bakes two pies in Appleton, Indiana for the Church bake sale and the next day Johnny tosses a grenade into a hut in Afghanistan, killing 6 people, including 4 children, what is the balance of Christian influence in Johnny's family?

 

[Gagafritz]

But, it does translate. More good is done by someone giving a cup of water in Jesus name to a thirsty person than do all the Mega Churches in the world.

 

[Gadawg73]

Having played a lot of football in my time I was called on to coach for numerous years in the rec league here. A local small church had a good piece of property and offered to allow teams to practice on their property which was flat and smooth as long as we mowed the grass down. The preacher was youth oriented. Like most churches the congregation was senior oriented. Accordingly, that preacher did bnot last very long there. He wanted to spend the $$ on the outside areas of the church and the AARP crowd wanted a 20 passenger bus for 85K to go to the mountains in the fall to see the leaves.
As in everything else these days the AARP crowd runs the show.
Young families see it and do not like it and either find a very small church that has their service in a vacant commercial strip shopping center building for low rent that caters to the children or they stay home.