Indiana blows up the Education 'Oblast'; massive vouchers, teacher tenure kaput, asse

[Trajan]

Indiana's Great Education Leap
The Hoosier State passes vouchers and dissolves teacher tenure.
* MAY 6, 2011

School choice is gaining new momentum, and one of the biggest political breakthroughs came this week in Indiana. Governor Mitch Daniels signed legislation Thursday that includes far-reaching reforms in teacher assessment and tenure, as well the most ambitious voucher program in memory.

Under the new law, the state will provide 7,500 publicly financed scholarships of up to $4,500 a year to Hoosier elementary school kids who have been in public schools for the last two semesters and then want to attend another school, public or private. That scholarship number rises to 15,000 in the second year, with no cap in the third year and beyond. High school students can also qualify for a voucher of up to 90% of the state public school support, which varies by school district.

snip-
There's also a major expansion of charter school opportunities. The law allows a state commission and the state's universities to authorize new charters, which now number only 63 statewide. It also reduces one of the main disadvantages that charters have compared to traditional schools by giving them access to unused school buildings, and it gives parents new rights to petition to turn a persistently failing school into a charter.

The reform also makes major gains on teacher accountability, ending the last-in, first-out layoff policy that caused the firing of the state's teacher of the year. School districts will be able to introduce pay for performance, using a new evaluation system based on student progress, not teacher tenure. The angel will have to come in the details of these evaluations, which the union will try to game, but this at least gives reformers a fighting chance to break up a status quo that now makes it nearly impossible to fire bad teachers.

more at-
Review & Outlook: Indiana's Great Education Leap - WSJ.com

 

[Baruch Menachem]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

 

[Trajan]

And you know what? In 5 to 8 years they will have the ability to parse all the data, if its a winner it is, if its not,we'll know. Good for everyone.

 

[DaGoose]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

....


And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

I would expect scores to improve simply because the parents who are already involved will certainly take advantage of this to upgrade their kid’s educational opportunities.

 

[Annie]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

There is no way to 'force' parental involvement. There is no way for schools to correct kids damaged at home through abuse or neglect, other than referring to child services, as mandated.

Now if you wish to come up with a plan to force parents to care, please write it up.

 

[editec]

Indiana's Great Education Leap
The Hoosier State passes vouchers and dissolves teacher tenure.
* MAY 6, 2011

School choice is gaining new momentum, and one of the biggest political breakthroughs came this week in Indiana. Governor Mitch Daniels signed legislation Thursday that includes far-reaching reforms in teacher assessment and tenure, as well the most ambitious voucher program in memory.

Under the new law, the state will provide 7,500 publicly financed scholarships of up to $4,500 a year to Hoosier elementary school kids who have been in public schools for the last two semesters and then want to attend another school, public or private. That scholarship number rises to 15,000 in the second year, with no cap in the third year and beyond. High school students can also qualify for a voucher of up to 90% of the state public school support, which varies by school district.

snip-
There's also a major expansion of charter school opportunities. The law allows a state commission and the state's universities to authorize new charters, which now number only 63 statewide. It also reduces one of the main disadvantages that charters have compared to traditional schools by giving them access to unused school buildings, and it gives parents new rights to petition to turn a persistently failing school into a charter.

The reform also makes major gains on teacher accountability, ending the last-in, first-out layoff policy that caused the firing of the state's teacher of the year. School districts will be able to introduce pay for performance, using a new evaluation system based on student progress, not teacher tenure. The angel will have to come in the details of these evaluations, which the union will try to game, but this at least gives reformers a fighting chance to break up a status quo that now makes it nearly impossible to fire bad teachers.

more at-
Review & Outlook: Indiana's Great Education Leap - WSJ.com

Well...I look forward to seeing the outcome of these changes over the next generation or so.

 

[Toro]

I used to be a supporter of this. Now I'm not so sure. My group invested in a private education company that went into public school systems and took over the running of the schools. It was one of the few investments were we felt good about making a profit and doing good socially. But after years of watching it, I'm not sure if it did any better than the public schools.

Interesting debate for and against.
Fresh Air from WHYY : NPR

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

You do realize that you are indicting the teaching profession as no more than baby-sitters.

And, if so, you'd be incorrect.

 

[Samson]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

There is no way to 'force' parental involvement. There is no way for schools to correct kids damaged at home through abuse or neglect, other than referring to child services, as mandated.

Now if you wish to come up with a plan to force parents to care, please write it up.

"it gives parents new rights to petition to turn a persistently failing school into a charter"

At least the horses have been lead to the water.

It's up to them to drink.

 

[editec]

Speaking as an educator of course charter schools and vouchers are probably to my benefit.

Not sure that the Republican plan will really be beneficial to this nation as a whole.

So it will be interesting to see how this plays out in states that adopt this edcuation strategy.

 

[Trajan]

I used to be a supporter of this. Now I'm not so sure. My group invested in a private education company that went into public school systems and took over the running of the schools. It was one of the few investments were we felt good about making a profit and doing good socially. But after years of watching it, I'm not sure if it did any better than the public schools.

Interesting debate for and against.
Fresh Air from WHYY : NPR

*shrugs*


snip-

When Mr. Obama first moved to phase out the D.C. voucher program in 2009, his Education Department was in possession of a federal study showing that voucher recipients, who number more than 3,300, made gains in reading scores and didn't decline in math. The administration claims that the reading gains were not large enough to be significant. Yet even smaller positive effects were championed by the administration as justification for expanding Head Start.

In any case, the program's merits don't rest on reading scores alone. In a study published last year, Patrick Wolf of the University of Arkansas found that voucher recipients had graduation rates of 91%. That's significantly higher than the D.C. public school average (56%) and the graduation rate for students who applied for a D.C. voucher but didn't win the lottery (70%). In testimony before a Senate subcommittee in February, Mr. Wolf said that "we can be more than 99% confident that access to school choice through the Opportunity Scholarship Program, and not mere statistical noise, was the reason why OSP students graduated at these higher rates."

snip-

The positive effects of the D.C. voucher program are not unique. A recent study of Milwaukee's older and larger voucher program found that 94% of students who stayed in the program throughout high school graduated, versus just 75% of students in Milwaukee's traditional public schools. And contrary to the claim that vouchers hurt public schools, the report found that students at Milwaukee public schools "are performing at somewhat higher levels as a result of competitive pressure from the school voucher program." Thus can vouchers benefit even the children that don't receive them.

Research gathered by Greg Forster of the Foundation for Educational Choice also calls into question the White House assertion that vouchers are ineffective. In a paper released in March, he says that "every empirical study ever conducted in Milwaukee, Florida, Ohio, Texas, Maine and Vermont finds that voucher programs in those places improved public schools." Mr. Forster surveyed 10 empirical studies that use "random assignment, the gold standard of social science," to assure that the groups being compared are as similar as possible. "Nine [of the 10] studies find that vouchers improve student outcomes, six that all students benefit and three that some benefit and some are not affected," he writes. "One study finds no visible impact. None of these studies finds a negative impact."

more at-

Jason Riley: The Evidence Is In—School Vouchers Work - WSJ.com

 

[Trajan]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

uh huh, thats the old saw alright, its not the institution its the parents, so really? How bad was parental involvement say 40 years ago? And all that come in between is what exactly? the admin. bloat, mission creep in the form of social engineering and unionization that took place in our schools.


maybe schools should just stick to educating, and thats not just the teachers I am referring to, I am referring to the administration of the districts.

Newark spends $25,000 , thats twenty five thousand a year to graduate 56% their pupils........I can get those kids 3 rooms and a bath and half for them for a year even in san jose $25k......please.

 

[DaGoose]

This is very good news. This is what should have been done in Wisconsin, but that circus was way more entertaining.

And what is going to really light some fires is if all the sudden Indiana schools start topping out the SATs.

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

You do realize that you are indicting the teaching profession as no more than baby-sitters.

And, if so, you'd be incorrect.

The ONLY reason that private schools do better is because since the parents are paying for it directly out of their pockets they take a more active interest in what goes on there.

So don't try and cry that it's the teacher unions or that teachers don't care or work hard enough blah, blah, blah. That's pure bullshit.

The key was, is and always will be getting parents off their dead asses and taking the needed time with their childrens schools and school work.

.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

There is absolutely no reason for high school and elementary school teachers to have tenure. None whatsoever. College I can understand, but not primary education.

 

[Annie]

Why? Will this force more parental invovement? Because without that their just pissing in the wind.

.

You do realize that you are indicting the teaching profession as no more than baby-sitters.

And, if so, you'd be incorrect.

The ONLY reason that private schools do better is because since the parents are paying for it directly out of their pockets they take a more active interest in what goes on there.

So don't try and cry that it's the teacher unions or that teachers don't care or work hard enough blah, blah, blah. That's pure bullshit.

The key was, is and always will be getting parents off their dead asses and taking the needed time with their childrens schools and school work.

.

I taught in private school for more than a decade, there are plenty of parents that can pay tuition that neglect and yes, abuse their children.

 

[Samson]

You do realize that you are indicting the teaching profession as no more than baby-sitters.

And, if so, you'd be incorrect.

The ONLY reason that private schools do better is because since the parents are paying for it directly out of their pockets they take a more active interest in what goes on there.

So don't try and cry that it's the teacher unions or that teachers don't care or work hard enough blah, blah, blah. That's pure bullshit.

The key was, is and always will be getting parents off their dead asses and taking the needed time with their childrens schools and school work.

.

I taught in private school for more than a decade, there are plenty of parents that can pay tuition that neglect and yes, abuse their children.

The broad-brushing statements about anything, but private schools in particular, make a poster look ignorant.

Some Private schools do better than Some public schools.

Back to the topic: giving parents vouchers gives them choices. Still up to them to make good choices.

 

[Annie]

The ONLY reason that private schools do better is because since the parents are paying for it directly out of their pockets they take a more active interest in what goes on there.

So don't try and cry that it's the teacher unions or that teachers don't care or work hard enough blah, blah, blah. That's pure bullshit.

The key was, is and always will be getting parents off their dead asses and taking the needed time with their childrens schools and school work.

.

I taught in private school for more than a decade, there are plenty of parents that can pay tuition that neglect and yes, abuse their children.

The broad-brushing statements about anything, but private schools in particular, make a poster look ignorant.

Some Private schools do better than Some public schools.

Back to the topic: giving parents vouchers gives them choices. Still up to them to make good choices.

and when parents have a choice, the school is under pressure to perform or lose students.

Now would be a good time to look at what the country expects from the public school teachers.

They want them to overcome parents that don't care much, some that can't care for themselves, much less children.

They want them to teach them to be all accepting of all lifestyles, regardless of parents that care, but might have different ideas.

They want them to teach safe-sex, but not be judgmental in their approach.

They want them to teach that 'Character Counts, but must cope with parents and administrators that have no intention of taking responsibility, much less being trustworthy.



What the federal government expects from school districts:

They expect all students to pass standardize tests, even those that aren't able because of severe mental/physical defects. Cheating is fine, as long as not caught. Now about 'Character Counts?'

They want every child to have the 'most appropriate, but least restrictive environment in which to learn,' but give little funding. If the school fails to meet this test, (basically if a parent complains), the district can lose the little funding they do get for all the kids in this very expensive sub-grouping.

They expect the schools to pretend to teach students that can only pretend to know materials they are incapable of knowing. NCLB brought this to the forefront of the ridiculous. The public schools are responsible for at least 6 hours a day to care for students that aren't students, but rather patients. They cannot learn due to brain damage; physical illness-often terminal in the long run, that leaves them exhausted. They often sleep most of the day. Some might be educable, especially Downs Syndrome students, but they are in class rooms with limited stimulation from other children and more adults than students in the room. Many of these are nurses and physical therapists, not teachers. Very expensive, very.

If the majority of us agree that as a nation we should provide aid/respite care for parents of these kids, there are several less expensive and more comfortable ways to do so. It would free up millions for the educable and other students and make life much easier for the extreme special needs kids. Also it should not be coming out of the public school coffers, but federal coffers.

All kids should be reading and performing math at grade level. Problem is, the schools are also to provide education for students that can't do so, see above, as well as those that do not speak English. This is one area that at least my local schools have tackled head on, I'm not sure how or why they decided on the plans they did, but I know it's going on in both districts I sub in. They have gone immersion rather than ESL classes. For a 90 minute block all ESL students are brought into a classroom and for 45 minutes taught English 'culture' words-holidays, symbols, money, etc. The other 45 minutes are used as a 'help' study hall, for homework or lessons they don't understand. They miss 2 days of PE and 1 of either art or music. This 'support' class is for 1 semester for most, but in some cases, (Bangladeshi student that I know of), expandable to a year. With that said, even with the limited English, most of these kids are at "B" or "A" level with grades. The classroom teachers help, as is the wont, but the extra time helps the kids while the classroom teacher tries to keep on level.

It may be past time to acknowledge that the schools are stretched to the breaking point. The vast majority of their students enter school eager, ready, and willing to learn. The stressors are creating problems for the teachers trying to teach to 'all.' We have broken children, abused children, children that can't understand the language. In order to 'reach' the anomalies, the majority are drifting. Note, I've not even spoken to the issues of BD or gifted? Another set of problems altogether.

As I've said many times, I think the private schools get clobbered for an idealized version of what they cope with. Many of their students are not average or from privileged families. Many are below avg. IQ, many have LD. They have their share of BD kids too. They have no support services. Their teachers do not have the training for differentiating to the degree that many of these students need. The principals accept them for tuition or a misguided belief they are 'serving all God's children.'

Indeed, with few exceptions, most special needs kids should be refused by schools without the support staff and trained staff to deal with the problems. Too many special needs kids have parents that will not deal with their problems. The private schools may take them for the tuition, but cannot address their deficits. The parents are happy just to avoid a label, until it becomes clear, usually by 5th/6th grade, that this 'child' is not going to be ready for high school. That's when the pressure falls upon the teacher to 'make sure the child qualifies for a certificate of completion.' It's at this point that parents often agree that 'modification' may be indicated on records, but the teachers really aren't for the main, trained in how to modify or help the child meet the goals involved. Hell, most regular ed teachers don't even know how to write modified goals. NOTE: If you have a child with special needs, head for the public schools!

 

[Modbert]

There is absolutely no reason for high school and elementary school teachers to have tenure. None whatsoever. College I can understand, but not primary education.

I would be surprised if the same people who wish to eliminate tenure for high school and elementary school teachers don't try to do so for college professors.

 

[Toro]

I used to be a supporter of this. Now I'm not so sure. My group invested in a private education company that went into public school systems and took over the running of the schools. It was one of the few investments were we felt good about making a profit and doing good socially. But after years of watching it, I'm not sure if it did any better than the public schools.

Interesting debate for and against.
Fresh Air from WHYY : NPR

*shrugs*


snip-

When Mr. Obama first moved to phase out the D.C. voucher program in 2009, his Education Department was in possession of a federal study showing that voucher recipients, who number more than 3,300, made gains in reading scores and didn't decline in math. The administration claims that the reading gains were not large enough to be significant. Yet even smaller positive effects were championed by the administration as justification for expanding Head Start.

In any case, the program's merits don't rest on reading scores alone. In a study published last year, Patrick Wolf of the University of Arkansas found that voucher recipients had graduation rates of 91%. That's significantly higher than the D.C. public school average (56%) and the graduation rate for students who applied for a D.C. voucher but didn't win the lottery (70%). In testimony before a Senate subcommittee in February, Mr. Wolf said that "we can be more than 99% confident that access to school choice through the Opportunity Scholarship Program, and not mere statistical noise, was the reason why OSP students graduated at these higher rates."

snip-

The positive effects of the D.C. voucher program are not unique. A recent study of Milwaukee's older and larger voucher program found that 94% of students who stayed in the program throughout high school graduated, versus just 75% of students in Milwaukee's traditional public schools. And contrary to the claim that vouchers hurt public schools, the report found that students at Milwaukee public schools "are performing at somewhat higher levels as a result of competitive pressure from the school voucher program." Thus can vouchers benefit even the children that don't receive them.

Research gathered by Greg Forster of the Foundation for Educational Choice also calls into question the White House assertion that vouchers are ineffective. In a paper released in March, he says that "every empirical study ever conducted in Milwaukee, Florida, Ohio, Texas, Maine and Vermont finds that voucher programs in those places improved public schools." Mr. Forster surveyed 10 empirical studies that use "random assignment, the gold standard of social science," to assure that the groups being compared are as similar as possible. "Nine [of the 10] studies find that vouchers improve student outcomes, six that all students benefit and three that some benefit and some are not affected," he writes. "One study finds no visible impact. None of these studies finds a negative impact."

more at-

Jason Riley: The Evidence Is In—School Vouchers Work - WSJ.com

I've gone from being a supporter of this stuff to being agnostic.

My first guest, Diane Ravitch, had been an advocate of choice, testing, accountability and market-based education reform. Now she has profound doubts about these same ideas. She says she was persuaded by accumulating evidence that these reforms were not likely to live up to their promise.

Diane Ravitch's latest book is called "The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Undermine Education." She served as assistant secretary of education in the George W. Bush administration. President Clinton appointed her to the National Assessment Governing Board, which oversees federal testing of student progress in different subject areas. She served on that board for seven years. Diane Ravitch is a professor of education at NYU and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. ...

Well, here's why I think it's a problem, and it's because I step back and I'm a historian and I look at the data from studies across the world, and what I see is that the best-performing nations in the world have strong public education systems.

I don't see any of the high-performing nations handing over control of children in the public sector and handing over public funding to entrepreneurs. I see them instead building a public school system, building and strengthening their education profession so that their teachers are the best, so that they're well-supported, so that they feel passionate and energetic about the work they're doing.

And we seem to be doing the opposite. We're privatizing many of our public schools. We're demoralizing the people who work in the regular public schools. We're doing, as a nation, at this moment in time, doing nothing to improve our public school system and everything to undermine it. ...

So what's your assessment of the pros and cons of teachers unions today?

Prof. RAVITCH: Well, the first thing you have to understand about teachers unions is they're not the problem. The state with the highest scores on the national tests, the ones given by the federal government, the state - that state is Massachusetts, which is 100 percent union.

The nation with the highest scores in the world is Finland, which is 100 percent union. Management and labor can always work together around the needs of children if they're willing to. ...

handing the schools in low-income neighborhoods over to private entrepreneurs does not, in itself, improve them.

There's plenty of evidence by now that the kids in those schools do no better,

Diane Ravitch: Standardized Testing Undermines Teaching : NPR

That last sentence has been my experience.