Income taxes the real numbers !!

[truthsaga]

Does congress have the ability to produce a pencil?

We have already seen that the marketplace can out perform the government when it comes to providing this service. The only reason they are still in business because they have a monopoly on certain services by law.

 

[truthsaga]

I understand your argument, but your suggesting that it is impossible for the marketplace or even the state to produce a highway. My argument all the coordination that goes into producing a pencil from the cutting of the wood, processing, transportation, manufacturing, marketing, and so on. How can the federal government stream line or make that process more efficient by taking our money? An income tax was not always around and it should be done away with if we are looking seriously at putting people back to work and caring for the most possible people.

We can argue if the highway was developed by the market place it would be more efficient and less costly to maintain.

 

[eflatminor]

...do you have the funds to build a highway? run a post office?

The Post Office is of course a Constitutional requirement. We wouldn't need an income tax if the feds stuck to that silly old document. It ain't even roads and bridges. It's hundreds of thousands of laws with tens of thousands more added each year at every level of government all support by millions of bureaucrats with taxpayer backed pensions. It's endless occupations and wars. It's a giant stack of IOUs where once stood Social Security deposits. It's bureaucratic socialism and crony fascism. And it's all resulted in $14.7 trillion of debt...and growing.

This isn't about the Post Office.

 

[FA_Q2]

When did it become okay for the government to take any portion of your money. I would like to opt out of this entire warfare / welfare system, I never voted for any of this.

Then how do you propose government receive the wealth that is necessary for its operation? Do you disagree with police, fire, PO, military, roads ect. If you think some of those can be handled by the private sector, which ones and how?

An income tax is almost a necessity and far better than any other form of funding that I can think of at the moment. Unless you think that government can run with a zero budget, outline where those funds will come from and how far should the government go in reduction. I believe in small government but small does not mean non-existent.

 

[truthsaga]

...do you have the funds to build a highway? run a post office?

The Post Office is of course a Constitutional requirement. We wouldn't need an income tax if the feds stuck to that silly old document. It ain't even roads and bridges. It's hundreds of thousands of laws with tens of thousands more added each year at every level of government all support by millions of bureaucrats with taxpayer backed pensions. It's endless occupations and wars. It's a giant stack of IOUs where once stood Social Security deposits. It's bureaucratic socialism and crony fascism. And it's all resulted in $14.7 trillion of debt...and growing.

This isn't about the Post Office.

I could of not said it any better. A true concerned American addresses chrony capitalism as well as the monsters of the welfare and warfare states. I can see the brush fires of human liberty are burning bright here on these message boards.

 

[auditor0007]

If you earn 250,000 dollars a year in income you pay the feds $64,018 .....and thats just the damn feds!! if you include state income taxes,property taxes,sales taxes,and the death tax the local,state, and federal gubment gets most of your damn money !! And guess what !! libbs want more because to them you keeping only half of what you work for is greedy as hell !!

If you make $250,000 and pay $64,000 in federal income taxes, then you are a fucking moron. Seriously, if you can't find a way to write off some of that income, then you honestly deserve to pay that much in taxes. Even a single person should be able to drop that tax payment by at least $10,000. Someone who is married with kids should be able to drop that tax payment by at least $20,000.

 

[truthsaga]

When did it become okay for the government to take any portion of your money. I would like to opt out of this entire warfare / welfare system, I never voted for any of this.

Then how do you propose government receive the wealth that is necessary for its operation? Do you disagree with police, fire, PO, military, roads ect. If you think some of those can be handled by the private sector, which ones and how?

An income tax is almost a necessity and far better than any other form of funding that I can think of at the moment. Unless you think that government can run with a zero budget, outline where those funds will come from and how far should the government go in reduction. I believe in small government but small does not mean non-existent.

Excellent argument and thank you for having a debate, not a copy and paste fest.

First, I want to say that it is involuntary servitude and was supposedly outlawed by the 13th amendment. When you look at the 16th Amendment and how it was passed it should raise eyebrows.

Income tax is intrusive with all the information you disclose.
Income tax wastes resources with all the record keeping, in fact there is a whole industry of accountants, lawyers, and tax professionals that file and deal with taxes. This is a waste of labor resources that can be used more efficiently in the economy.
The income tax was introduced with The Federal Reserve aka central bank and was introduced to the average Americans in 1942 with the 5% victory tax.

You get less of what you tax and more of what you subsidize; it taxes hardwork, savings, investments, and subsidizes debt and borrowing with all the tax write offs that encourage more debt.

We would be much better off with a consumption tax with an exemption on food (no food taxes). Lets tax people when they spend their money.

 

[DaGoose]

When did it become okay for the government to take any portion of your money. I would like to opt out of this entire warfare / welfare system, I never voted for any of this.

Then how do you propose government receive the wealth that is necessary for its operation? Do you disagree with police, fire, PO, military, roads ect. If you think some of those can be handled by the private sector, which ones and how?

An income tax is almost a necessity and far better than any other form of funding that I can think of at the moment. Unless you think that government can run with a zero budget, outline where those funds will come from and how far should the government go in reduction. I believe in small government but small does not mean non-existent.

Excellent argument and thank you for having a debate, not a copy and paste fest.

First, I want to say that it is involuntary servitude and was supposedly outlawed by the 13th amendment. When you look at the 16th Amendment and how it was passed it should raise eyebrows.

Income tax is intrusive with all the information you disclose.
Income tax wastes resources with all the record keeping, in fact there is a whole industry of accountants, lawyers, and tax professionals that file and deal with taxes. This is a waste of labor resources that can be used more efficiently in the economy.
The income tax was introduced with The Federal Reserve aka central bank and was introduced to the average Americans in 1942 with the 5% victory tax.

You get less of what you tax and more of what you subsidize; it taxes hardwork, savings, investments, and subsidizes debt and borrowing with all the tax write offs that encourage more debt.

We would be much better off with a consumption tax with an exemption on food (no food taxes). Lets tax people when they spend their money.

Have you ever considered that there are many ways to reduce your income taxes? I'm not only talking about shelters (a large chunk of my income goes into my 401k on a pre-tax basis) though God knows there are many for the upper income people.

The point I'm making is that I know of a guy who got his whole house redone, including a new a/c and furnace at little cost to him. How? He's a hell of a mechanic and he simply traded his job skills for other peoples job skills. And the businessman who installed his a/c and furnace for him got to write it off at a loss since his business had an outlay with no income on that particular transaction.

I know another guy who helps a farmer out on an occasional basis in exchange for a cow every year. He doesn't spend a dime on beef yet eats lots of steaks and roasts all year long.

So instead of working for pay these folks worked for goods and services. It's called bartering.

So the bottom line is that in some circumstances paying income tax can be voluntary by limiting the amount of income.

One drawback, however, is that the amount of SS you collect is based on income so they may take a bit of a hit in the long term.

http://www.u-exchange.com/businessbarter

http://www.barterexchange.com/

.

 

[yidnar]

Then how do you propose government receive the wealth that is necessary for its operation? Do you disagree with police, fire, PO, military, roads ect. If you think some of those can be handled by the private sector, which ones and how?

An income tax is almost a necessity and far better than any other form of funding that I can think of at the moment. Unless you think that government can run with a zero budget, outline where those funds will come from and how far should the government go in reduction. I believe in small government but small does not mean non-existent.

Excellent argument and thank you for having a debate, not a copy and paste fest.

First, I want to say that it is involuntary servitude and was supposedly outlawed by the 13th amendment. When you look at the 16th Amendment and how it was passed it should raise eyebrows.

Income tax is intrusive with all the information you disclose.
Income tax wastes resources with all the record keeping, in fact there is a whole industry of accountants, lawyers, and tax professionals that file and deal with taxes. This is a waste of labor resources that can be used more efficiently in the economy.
The income tax was introduced with The Federal Reserve aka central bank and was introduced to the average Americans in 1942 with the 5% victory tax.

You get less of what you tax and more of what you subsidize; it taxes hardwork, savings, investments, and subsidizes debt and borrowing with all the tax write offs that encourage more debt.

We would be much better off with a consumption tax with an exemption on food (no food taxes). Lets tax people when they spend their money.

Have you ever considered that there are many ways to reduce your income taxes? I'm not only talking about shelters (a large chunk of my income goes into my 401k on a pre-tax basis) though God knows there are many for the upper income people.

The point I'm making is that I know of a guy who got his whole house redone, including a new a/c and furnace at little cost to him. How? He's a hell of a mechanic and he simply traded his job skills for other peoples job skills. And the businessman who installed his a/c and furnace for him got to write it off at a loss since his business had an outlay with no income on that particular transaction.

I know another guy who helps a farmer out on an occasional basis in exchange for a cow every year. He doesn't spend a dime on beef yet eats lots of steaks and roasts all year long.

So instead of working for pay these folks worked for goods and services. It's called bartering.

So the bottom line is that in some circumstances paying income tax can be voluntary by limiting the amount of income.

One drawback, however, is that the amount of SS you collect is based on income so they may take a bit of a hit in the long term.

Business Barter for Goods and Services

BarterExchange.com - A Place for You to Trade Goods and Services

.

I may be mistaken but I think it is called the barter system ......if this form of trade were reenacted natural selection would once again visit the human race and non productive sectors of society would die off ......ie .libbs would become extinct !!

 

[yidnar]

25% is 25% of your TAXABLE income, after you've exempted and deducted thousands off the top of your gross income.

thousands which can include many of the taxes paid in yidnar's list.

It's a shame I have no confidence in yidnar's ability to be honest or I'd ask him

1. his gross income last year

2. his taxable income

3. his federal income tax paid.

so... how does your dislike for me effect the facts ?? what does my income have to do with the tax rate ?? and if someone says we have been to the moon but is not an astronaut does that make the moon landing false ??

 

[DaGoose]

Excellent argument and thank you for having a debate, not a copy and paste fest.

First, I want to say that it is involuntary servitude and was supposedly outlawed by the 13th amendment. When you look at the 16th Amendment and how it was passed it should raise eyebrows.

Income tax is intrusive with all the information you disclose.
Income tax wastes resources with all the record keeping, in fact there is a whole industry of accountants, lawyers, and tax professionals that file and deal with taxes. This is a waste of labor resources that can be used more efficiently in the economy.
The income tax was introduced with The Federal Reserve aka central bank and was introduced to the average Americans in 1942 with the 5% victory tax.

You get less of what you tax and more of what you subsidize; it taxes hardwork, savings, investments, and subsidizes debt and borrowing with all the tax write offs that encourage more debt.

We would be much better off with a consumption tax with an exemption on food (no food taxes). Lets tax people when they spend their money.

Have you ever considered that there are many ways to reduce your income taxes? I'm not only talking about shelters (a large chunk of my income goes into my 401k on a pre-tax basis) though God knows there are many for the upper income people.

The point I'm making is that I know of a guy who got his whole house redone, including a new a/c and furnace at little cost to him. How? He's a hell of a mechanic and he simply traded his job skills for other peoples job skills. And the businessman who installed his a/c and furnace for him got to write it off at a loss since his business had an outlay with no income on that particular transaction.

I know another guy who helps a farmer out on an occasional basis in exchange for a cow every year. He doesn't spend a dime on beef yet eats lots of steaks and roasts all year long.

So instead of working for pay these folks worked for goods and services. It's called bartering.

So the bottom line is that in some circumstances paying income tax can be voluntary by limiting the amount of income.

One drawback, however, is that the amount of SS you collect is based on income so they may take a bit of a hit in the long term.

Business Barter for Goods and Services

BarterExchange.com - A Place for You to Trade Goods and Services

.

I may be mistaken but I think it is called the barter system ......if this form of trade were reenacted natural selection would once again visit the human race and non productive sectors of society would die off ......ie .libbs would become extinct !!

You're right. You are mistaken. You assume that I am talking about replacing the income tax system. I did not. Only how you can lessen its impact.

.

 

[FA_Q2]

When did it become okay for the government to take any portion of your money. I would like to opt out of this entire warfare / welfare system, I never voted for any of this.

Then how do you propose government receive the wealth that is necessary for its operation? Do you disagree with police, fire, PO, military, roads ect. If you think some of those can be handled by the private sector, which ones and how?

An income tax is almost a necessity and far better than any other form of funding that I can think of at the moment. Unless you think that government can run with a zero budget, outline where those funds will come from and how far should the government go in reduction. I believe in small government but small does not mean non-existent.

Excellent argument and thank you for having a debate, not a copy and paste fest.

First, I want to say that it is involuntary servitude and was supposedly outlawed by the 13th amendment. When you look at the 16th Amendment and how it was passed it should raise eyebrows.

Income tax is intrusive with all the information you disclose.
Income tax wastes resources with all the record keeping, in fact there is a whole industry of accountants, lawyers, and tax professionals that file and deal with taxes. This is a waste of labor resources that can be used more efficiently in the economy.
The income tax was introduced with The Federal Reserve aka central bank and was introduced to the average Americans in 1942 with the 5% victory tax.

You get less of what you tax and more of what you subsidize; it taxes hardwork, savings, investments, and subsidizes debt and borrowing with all the tax write offs that encourage more debt.

We would be much better off with a consumption tax with an exemption on food (no food taxes). Lets tax people when they spend their money.

That is a possibility but I don't see the difference in when the government takes my money. Your point on the write-offs is correct and I would seek to eliminate all write-offs. I do not believe in governmental social engineering but I don't see the benefit of taxing just purchases or, as a matter of fact, taxing them at all. I think there should be an income tax and that is all that is taxed. A sales tax is far more wasteful and paperwork intensive as an income tax would be if the income tax were changed to a simple percent rather than the complex trash it is now.

 

[DaGoose]

Excellent argument and thank you for having a debate, not a copy and paste fest.

First, I want to say that it is involuntary servitude and was supposedly outlawed by the 13th amendment. When you look at the 16th Amendment and how it was passed it should raise eyebrows.

Income tax is intrusive with all the information you disclose.
Income tax wastes resources with all the record keeping, in fact there is a whole industry of accountants, lawyers, and tax professionals that file and deal with taxes. This is a waste of labor resources that can be used more efficiently in the economy.
The income tax was introduced with The Federal Reserve aka central bank and was introduced to the average Americans in 1942 with the 5% victory tax.

You get less of what you tax and more of what you subsidize; it taxes hardwork, savings, investments, and subsidizes debt and borrowing with all the tax write offs that encourage more debt.

We would be much better off with a consumption tax with an exemption on food (no food taxes). Lets tax people when they spend their money.

Have you ever considered that there are many ways to reduce your income taxes? I'm not only talking about shelters (a large chunk of my income goes into my 401k on a pre-tax basis) though God knows there are many for the upper income people.

The point I'm making is that I know of a guy who got his whole house redone, including a new a/c and furnace at little cost to him. How? He's a hell of a mechanic and he simply traded his job skills for other peoples job skills. And the businessman who installed his a/c and furnace for him got to write it off at a loss since his business had an outlay with no income on that particular transaction.

I know another guy who helps a farmer out on an occasional basis in exchange for a cow every year. He doesn't spend a dime on beef yet eats lots of steaks and roasts all year long.

So instead of working for pay these folks worked for goods and services. It's called bartering.

So the bottom line is that in some circumstances paying income tax can be voluntary by limiting the amount of income.

One drawback, however, is that the amount of SS you collect is based on income so they may take a bit of a hit in the long term.

Business Barter for Goods and Services

BarterExchange.com - A Place for You to Trade Goods and Services

.

I may be mistaken but I think it is called the barter system ......if this form of trade were reenacted natural selection would once again visit the human race and non productive sectors of society would die off ......ie .libbs would become extinct !!

You also make it sound like it's a good thing?

IMHO caring for the less fortunate is one of the things that separate us from being nothing more than animals.

.

 

[yidnar]

Have you ever considered that there are many ways to reduce your income taxes? I'm not only talking about shelters (a large chunk of my income goes into my 401k on a pre-tax basis) though God knows there are many for the upper income people.

The point I'm making is that I know of a guy who got his whole house redone, including a new a/c and furnace at little cost to him. How? He's a hell of a mechanic and he simply traded his job skills for other peoples job skills. And the businessman who installed his a/c and furnace for him got to write it off at a loss since his business had an outlay with no income on that particular transaction.

I know another guy who helps a farmer out on an occasional basis in exchange for a cow every year. He doesn't spend a dime on beef yet eats lots of steaks and roasts all year long.

So instead of working for pay these folks worked for goods and services. It's called bartering.

So the bottom line is that in some circumstances paying income tax can be voluntary by limiting the amount of income.

One drawback, however, is that the amount of SS you collect is based on income so they may take a bit of a hit in the long term.

Business Barter for Goods and Services

BarterExchange.com - A Place for You to Trade Goods and Services

.

I may be mistaken but I think it is called the barter system ......if this form of trade were reenacted natural selection would once again visit the human race and non productive sectors of society would die off ......ie .libbs would become extinct !!

You also make it sound like it's a good thing?

IMHO caring for the less fortunate is one of the things that separate us from being nothing more than animals.

.

caring for the sick and infirm and others who are not able to care for themselves separate's us from animals..... wasting our time, wealth,and resources on the lazy connects us with fools !!

 

[truthsaga]

I may be mistaken but I think it is called the barter system ......if this form of trade were reenacted natural selection would once again visit the human race and non productive sectors of society would die off ......ie .libbs would become extinct !!

You also make it sound like it's a good thing?

IMHO caring for the less fortunate is one of the things that separate us from being nothing more than animals.

.

caring for the sick and infirm and others who are not able to care for themselves separate's us from animals..... wasting our time, wealth,and resources on the lazy connects us with fools !!

Your assuming that the government can take better care of our poor and needy, but that is wrong. Everything government has done in the name of social equality has failed and left the poor worse off. Look at The community reinvestment act, the adjustable rate mortgages, and pressure they put on the banks to lend. Without these policies the housing bubble would of never inflated and look at what happened to the poor and middle class, they lost their houses and the businesses that should of went bankrupt were bailed out and left the taxpayers with the bill. This is fair?

The federal government distorts and destroys everything it touches. We need to look at history before ObamaCare and GWB, government is the reason we have increases in cost of healthcare.

 

[yidnar]

You also make it sound like it's a good thing?

IMHO caring for the less fortunate is one of the things that separate us from being nothing more than animals.

.

caring for the sick and infirm and others who are not able to care for themselves separate's us from animals..... wasting our time, wealth,and resources on the lazy connects us with fools !!

Your assuming that the government can take better care of our poor and needy, but that is wrong. Everything government has done in the name of social equality has failed and left the poor worse off. Look at The community reinvestment act, the adjustable rate mortgages, and pressure they put on the banks to lend. Without these policies the housing bubble would of never inflated and look at what happened to the poor and middle class, they lost their houses and the businesses that should of went bankrupt were bailed out and left the taxpayers with the bill. This is fair?

The federal government distorts and destroys everything it touches. We need to look at history before ObamaCare and GWB, government is the reason we have increases in cost of healthcare.

the left wants everybody to pay but statistics show that conservatives donate more money,time,blood ,and food than libbs in the same income brackets do !!

 

[truthsaga]

caring for the sick and infirm and others who are not able to care for themselves separate's us from animals..... wasting our time, wealth,and resources on the lazy connects us with fools !!

Your assuming that the government can take better care of our poor and needy, but that is wrong. Everything government has done in the name of social equality has failed and left the poor worse off. Look at The community reinvestment act, the adjustable rate mortgages, and pressure they put on the banks to lend. Without these policies the housing bubble would of never inflated and look at what happened to the poor and middle class, they lost their houses and the businesses that should of went bankrupt were bailed out and left the taxpayers with the bill. This is fair?

The federal government distorts and destroys everything it touches. We need to look at history before ObamaCare and GWB, government is the reason we have increases in cost of healthcare.

the left wants everybody to pay but statistics show that conservatives donate more money,time,blood ,and food than libbs in the same income brackets do !!

In fairness, this problem comes from both sides of the aisle. If you do not think Mitt Romney and Rick Perry are hand picked by big pharma and big business candidates, think again! At the end of the day, we need to be electing statesman and true representatives of the people who show wisdom to the history of true human freedom and liberty. It is with our freedom that unleashes human creativity, not government mandates on the people.

Freedom is popular, it unites us. It is the establishment Republicans and Democrats that divides us over ridiculous arguments over the problems they originally created.

 

[yidnar]

Your assuming that the government can take better care of our poor and needy, but that is wrong. Everything government has done in the name of social equality has failed and left the poor worse off. Look at The community reinvestment act, the adjustable rate mortgages, and pressure they put on the banks to lend. Without these policies the housing bubble would of never inflated and look at what happened to the poor and middle class, they lost their houses and the businesses that should of went bankrupt were bailed out and left the taxpayers with the bill. This is fair?

The federal government distorts and destroys everything it touches. We need to look at history before ObamaCare and GWB, government is the reason we have increases in cost of healthcare.

the left wants everybody to pay but statistics show that conservatives donate more money,time,blood ,and food than libbs in the same income brackets do !!

In fairness, this problem comes from both sides of the aisle. If you do not think Mitt Romney and Rick Perry are hand picked by big pharma and big business candidates, think again! At the end of the day, we need to be electing statesman and true representatives of the people who show wisdom to the history of true human freedom and liberty. It is with our freedom that unleashes human creativity, not government mandates on the people.

Freedom is popular, it unites us. It is the establishment Republicans and Democrats that divides us over ridiculous arguments over the problems they originally created.

you are correct !! but freedom and personal responsibility is hard work !! and more and more people [even on the right]are looking for government to make things easier and better .....

 

[truthsaga]

Very True. Education is a powerful tool in this revolution.

 

[yidnar]

Very True. Education is a powerful tool in this revolution.

the left has infiltrated the schools and media so much that the only thing that will help America is a major crash caused by left wing ideology and regulations !! maybe then America will finally wake up !!