In This Day and Age...

[fyrenza]

your idea would be great if it wasn't for that stupid fucking constitution, dammit.

Oh, wow.

Only LimpTards can change it?

Yeah...

NEXT!

 

[fyrenza]

You don't understand UNIQUE names, do you?

Our computers ALL have unique names, in the form of NUMBERS.

Hack away.

IT WOULD BE COST INEFFECTIVE for anyone to try to hack ALL of our personal computers.

Do any of y'all know how business works in the U.S.?

It's PROFIT oriented.

If there's NOT a Good Return for the bux spent?

FOR FUCKING GET IT.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

tyranny of the majority is fail.

Tyranny of the minority works for you though?

 

[Madeline]

fryenza, are you suggesting that we directly vote on all bills, local state and federal? When would we even have the time?

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.

Ummm....

What was the question, again?

I care about Clean Air, about safe drugs, and about safe food, fyrenza. But I am not a scientist. I cannot master the raw data or the analysis of it and make an informed choice about such matters. It helps me (though it is not an efficient system) to elect representatives I have some confidence in who have a staff and can cope with such matters for me. If I don't like how they do their jobs, I fire them (elect someone else).

The direct "town meeting" style of government you are proposing is not even theorectically possible.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A committee of 300 million might be unwieldly.

Why?

With a program set to Count Votes, Pro and Con,

it would be MUCH simpler than what we go through, right now.

fryenza, are you suggesting that we directly vote on all bills, local state and federal? When would we even have the time?

How much time would it take? Most people can get through a ballot with multiple initiatives and vote on local, state, and federal candidates in just a few minutes every couple of years. Fyrenza is not proposing that everyone be involved in writing all the bills that come out of the government, only that we have a say in the approval process. Why does everyone think voters are so stupid they cannot make decisions for themselves?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

fryenza, are you suggesting that we directly vote on all bills, local state and federal? When would we even have the time?

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.

Ummm....

What was the question, again?

I care about Clean Air, about safe drugs, and about safe food, fyrenza. But I am not a scientist. I cannot master the raw data or the analysis of it and make an informed choice about such matters. It helps me (though it is not an efficient system) to elect representatives I have some confidence in who have a staff and can cope with such matters for me. If I don't like how they do their jobs, I fire them (elect someone else).

The direct "town meeting" style of government you are proposing is not even theorectically possible.

Yet you think that the idiot that is representing you in Congress understands these things?

This is not a call for you to write the laws, just vote on them. Imagine what would happen if Congress couldn't just tell us we need to let them pass a law so we would know what is in it?

 

[hipeter924]

This thread just reinforces my beliefs about democracy, have to follow Mark Twain on this one:

“Only a government that is rich and safe can afford to be a democracy, for democracy is the most expensive and nefarious kind of government ever heard of on earth.”

Mark Twain quotes (American Humorist, Writer and Lecturer. 1835-1910)


Mark Twain quotes

 

[Greenbeard]

Fyrenza is not proposing that everyone be involved in writing all the bills that come out of the government, only that we have a say in the approval process. Why does everyone think voters are so stupid they cannot make decisions for themselves?

Because when it comes to analyzing legislation, most of them can't. Even when people take an active interest in legislation, it's somewhat rare that they watch the mark-ups on C-Span, read or watch the testimony of experts on the proposed legislation or the subject area, read background materials from CRS or other research organizations, go over CBO scores related to the legislation, discuss the relevant issue with subject matter experts, or even, for that matter, read the text of the legislation. Making, debating, and evaluating policy is a great deal of work--it's a full time job for a great many people, in fact.

 

[Madeline]

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.

Ummm....

What was the question, again?

I care about Clean Air, about safe drugs, and about safe food, fyrenza. But I am not a scientist. I cannot master the raw data or the analysis of it and make an informed choice about such matters. It helps me (though it is not an efficient system) to elect representatives I have some confidence in who have a staff and can cope with such matters for me. If I don't like how they do their jobs, I fire them (elect someone else).

The direct "town meeting" style of government you are proposing is not even theorectically possible.

Yet you think that the idiot that is representing you in Congress understands these things?

This is not a call for you to write the laws, just vote on them. Imagine what would happen if Congress couldn't just tell us we need to let them pass a law so we would know what is in it?

That was an appalling comment by Pelosi, and should not have happened. But Quantum Windbag, even at the state level with a legislative session that only lasts 60 days, the amount of work involved in tracking just one bill is mind-blowing. fryernza seems to envision some sort of Ye Olde Towne Meeting style of government, but we are just too complex a society to be operated in that fashion.

How would we ever pass a budget, when even 90% of CPAs cannot understand government accounting? How would we pass tax legislation, or defense bills?

I'm not being elitist here. But the average American....even the average college educated American...is hardly competent to delve into such areas unaccompanied by experts. I know I'm not.

 

[Flopper]

fryenza, are you suggesting that we directly vote on all bills, local state and federal? When would we even have the time?

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.







Ummm....

What was the question, again?

I have looked at a lot bills. Most of them are quite complex. Some running hundreds and even thousands of pages. Congressman dedicate staff members to analyzing the bills and hire consultants. There is no way the general public could understand what they are voting on. This would be a disaster.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have looked at a lot bills. Most of them are quite complex. Some running hundreds and even thousands of pages. Congressman dedicate staff members to analyzing the bills and hire consultants. There is no way the general public could understand what they are voting on. This would be a disaster.

We are all to stupid.

Got it.

My response is rather simple, why do those bills need to be so complicated? Most of the complication in laws comes from buying off special interest groups and other unnecessary things that have no impact on the actual law. If you need an army of CPAs and lawyers to explain something it should be scrapped and made simpler.

 

[MaggieMae]

Nearly every home contains a personal computer, and each of those computers are "named" via a number, eh?

So why can't WE vote for what WE want,

or don't want?

Why are we STUCK LIKE CHUCK in this "representative" / proxy type of system?

The "representatives" have shown that they will straight-up LIE about how they will represent us, and we're STUCK with their Big Idea of what's going to be Good For Us.

This must end.

WE have voices,

and we have the means to make them heard.

Thoughts?

A representative form of government is what the Constitution calls for.

 

[MaggieMae]

tyranny of the majority is fail.

Tyranny of the majority?!?

In a democratic republic,

the majority RULES, eh?

If you're too stupid to figure out a computer?

You don't need to be voting, imho.

Your analogy is totally lost on me. I guess I shouldn't have been voting these past 40 years.

 

[MaggieMae]

Do you know how easy it is to hack such a system?

Not very, actually.

One would have to enslave ever how many computers you could hack in order to do it.

It wouldn't be worth anything to anyone, actually, 'cuz the costs of doing it would be EXORBITANT, and the return wouldn't be worth it.

All it would take is one.

The Enemy Within
When the Conficker computer “worm” was unleashed on the world in November 2008, cyber-security experts didn’t know what to make of it. It infiltrated millions of computers around the globe. It constantly checks in with its unknown creators. It uses an encryption code so sophisticated that only a very few people could have deployed it. For the first time ever, the cyber-security elites of the world have joined forces in a high-tech game of cops and robbers, trying to find Conficker’s creators and defeat them. The cops are failing. And now the worm lies there, waiting …

Full story:
The Enemy Within - Magazine - The Atlantic

 

[bodecea]

False premise. Not everyone has a computer. Not every computer is connected to the internet. Computers can be hacked into. Computers can be given viruses. Computer voting is NOT private, therefore not secret.

 

[MaggieMae]

What do you want?

Mainly, the things the politicos PROMISE me ~

how THEY are going to represent me.

But they LIE to me, and I'm tired of it.

If I vote for someone to SAY this, and VOTE this way on the issues,

I certainly Do Not expect them to backpedal and mealy mouth their way around VOTING in the manner that they have TOLD me they will vote.

I'm sick of being lied to.

I'm tired of voting for someone that doesn't mean MOST of what they say,

folks that can be coerced into stabbing ME in the back.

I want to vote for the things I find important,

and I don't want folks that haven't the vaguest idea of what's going on to have a say in MY, and the rest of our, futures.

If they can't READ, understand the implications, and vote from a standpoint of Knowledge, I don't want them to have a say in anyone's life.

We've seen what that brings us, eh?

This may come as a shock, but the way elected representatives vote may not be all about YOU, and YOUR personal desires. They act on what they believe to be the best interests of their constituents overall. You vote for the one who comes closest to your ideals. This isn't rocket science.

 

[MaggieMae]

fryenza, are you suggesting that we directly vote on all bills, local state and federal? When would we even have the time?

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.






Ummm....

What was the question, again?

You're supposed to have some knowledge of what you're voting on anyway. I still fail to see your point, unless it's just easier for you to get your information selectively fed to you, and that way you don't need to go looking for answers on your own.

 

[MaggieMae]

You don't understand UNIQUE names, do you?

Our computers ALL have unique names, in the form of NUMBERS.

Hack away.

IT WOULD BE COST INEFFECTIVE for anyone to try to hack ALL of our personal computers.

Do any of y'all know how business works in the U.S.?

It's PROFIT oriented.

If there's NOT a Good Return for the bux spent?

FOR FUCKING GET IT.

Are you drinking today?

 

[MaggieMae]

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.

Ummm....

What was the question, again?

I care about Clean Air, about safe drugs, and about safe food, fyrenza. But I am not a scientist. I cannot master the raw data or the analysis of it and make an informed choice about such matters. It helps me (though it is not an efficient system) to elect representatives I have some confidence in who have a staff and can cope with such matters for me. If I don't like how they do their jobs, I fire them (elect someone else).

The direct "town meeting" style of government you are proposing is not even theorectically possible.

Yet you think that the idiot that is representing you in Congress understands these things?

This is not a call for you to write the laws, just vote on them. Imagine what would happen if Congress couldn't just tell us we need to let them pass a law so we would know what is in it?

Thanks to the Internet, the public HAS had more access to the process of passage of a bill than ever before. Take just health care reform. It went through five drafts between the House and the Senate BEFORE it even made it to the Senate Finance Committee charged with preparing the final draft for a final vote on the floor. Every single DRAFT of the bill was posted online, in total, and in literally hundreds of places that highlighted the major points. And with each draft, the public DID weigh in, heavily, throughout every single media outlet, both print and online. Maybe if you asked, your own lawmakers might consider sending you a hard copy via snailmail for you to place at your bedside and read portions at your leisure. Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to what it is you want.

 

[MaggieMae]

fryenza, are you suggesting that we directly vote on all bills, local state and federal? When would we even have the time?

THAT's the BEAUTY of it!!!

We'd vote about what WE care about,

what we take the time to read about and understand!

If we don't care?

We wouldn't vote.

But let me ask you THIS:

If it's IMPORTANT? Wouldn't you sort of research it and get a good feel for the entire ambience of it?

We ALL would.

We spend hours here, arguing and disCUSSing with each other, eh?

Why wouldn't we READ and THINK for those hours?

About our future? About our children's futures? About how It IS?

WE CARE. We wouldn't be HERE if we didn't, eh?

So I say to Big Gov, and to lying Representatives: Get Lost.

I"LL Speak for ME.







Ummm....

What was the question, again?

I have looked at a lot bills. Most of them are quite complex. Some running hundreds and even thousands of pages. Congressman dedicate staff members to analyzing the bills and hire consultants. There is no way the general public could understand what they are voting on. This would be a disaster.

The language in new bills, especially major policy changes, also need to be extremely carefully written so that the new law doesn't cross boundaries into another agency's territory. Each clause must also be scrutinized to make sure it's constitutionally allowable. Legalese is found throughout, to assure as much as possible that loopholes are closed. And even with all that (and more), there still has never been a "perfect" bill that's satisfactory to everyone and that doesn't need to be amended down the line.