In Defense of Torture

Adam's Apple

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Apr 25, 2004
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Had to print full article. It is restricted to paid subscribers only.

When Torture Is the Only Option ...
By David Gelernter, The Los Angeles Times
November 11, 2005

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) proposed legislation incorporating into U.S. law the Geneva Convention ban on mistreating prisoners. The bill, which bans cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, passed the Senate 90 to 9. To say it's got momentum is putting it mildly.

But President Bush says he will veto the bill unless the CIA is exempted. Vice President Cheney has led the administration's campaign for the exemption. It's a hard sell; pro-torture politicians are scarce around Washington.

But, of course, you don't have to be "pro-torture" to oppose the McCain amendment. That naive misunderstanding summarizes the threat posed by this good-hearted, wrong-headed legislation. Those who oppose the amendment don't think the CIA should be permitted to use torture or other rough interrogation techniques. What they think is that sometimes the CIA should be required to squeeze the truth out of prisoners. Not because the CIA wants to torture people, but because it may be the only option we've got.

McCain's amendment is a trap for the lazy minded. Whenever a position seems so obvious that you don't even have to stop and think — stop and think.

Americans will never be permitted to use torture as punishment or vengeance. A criminal might deserve to be tortured; we refuse to torture him nonetheless, because to do so degrades us. But if torturing a terrorist (or carrying out some other form of rough interrogation) is the only way to save innocent lives, we have no right to refuse.

Most human beings recoil from committing torture. But sometimes we have an obligation to do hard things for the good of the nation — as no man knows better than McCain, who fought for his country and suffered long years as a brutally mistreated POW. But his amendment lets the CIA do what he refused to do. It lets the CIA take an easy out.

In 1982, the philosopher Michael Levin published an article challenging the popular view that the U.S. must never engage in torture. "Someday soon," he concluded, "a terrorist will threaten tens of thousands of lives, and torture will be the only way to save them."

Suppose a nuclear bomb is primed to detonate somewhere in Manhattan, Levin wrote, and we've captured a terrorist who knows where the bomb is. But he won't talk. By forbidding torture, you inflict death on many thousands of innocents and endless suffering on the families of those who died at a terrorist's whim — and who might have lived had government done its ugly duty.

Those who defend McCain's amendment and attack Cheney and Bush feel a nice warm glow, as if they're basking in virtue, as in a hot tub, sipping Cabernet. But there is no virtue in joining a crowd, even if the crowd is right — and this one isn't.

McCain is a bona fide hero. But there's nothing courageous in standing firm with virtually the whole cultural leadership of this nation and the Western world, under any circumstances. It's too easy. To take a principled stand that you know will make people loathe and vilify you — that's what integrity, leadership and moral courage are all about. This time Cheney is the hero. McCain is taking the easy out.

Of course, saying "never" instead of "almost never" is a trap that well-meaning, lazy people have been falling into for a long time. In a celebrated passage in "The Brothers Karamazov," Dostoevsky tells a story designed to end that error forever — about a rich, powerful general and an 8-year-old boy serf who "hurt the paw of the general's favorite hound." The next morning, the child is stripped naked. The general looses his pack of wolfhounds on the boy, who is torn to pieces before his mother's eyes.

What should be done to the general? The gentle monk Alyosha, who can't stand the thought of bloodshed, answers, "Shoot him." He has decided that capital punishment should be "almost never," not "never."

In the end, this column is indeed about willful, cheerful torture — committed not by the CIA but by terrorists whose bombs leave bewildered innocents maimed, blinded or wracked with pain for the rest of their lives, or ripped to pieces. Why? The torturers (or their friends) only smirk and tell us that "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Great").

We do not torture such terrorists to punish them. God forbid we should do as they do. But if torture (used with repugnance) can stop even one such atrocity, our duty is hideously plain.
 
"Those who oppose the amendment don't think the CIA should be permitted to use torture or other rough interrogation techniques. What they think is that sometimes the CIA should be required to squeeze the truth out of prisoners."

Ok, so how is "squeeze" not just a friendlier word for "torture"?
 
nakedemperor said:
"Those who oppose the amendment don't think the CIA should be permitted to use torture or other rough interrogation techniques. What they think is that sometimes the CIA should be required to squeeze the truth out of prisoners."

Ok, so how is "squeeze" not just a friendlier word for "torture"?

It's like torture, but with puppies and chocolate, and perhaps a hug after.
 
Im surprised that comes from the LA Times.

When the marketers call or arrive at my door trying to sell the LA Times and I say I dont want, specifically, the LA Times, they ask, "you have a problem with the paper? Is it too liberal?" hahhaha

THEY ASK ME !

Anyways, its obvious what he is saying. We cant officially sanction torture, but we know it goes on, always has and always will, to bring up legislation against it is stupid and silly.

If the CIA or any other covert anti terrorist activity has a, without a doubt, terrorist on their hands, then as far as Im concerned, and many would agree, the terrorist has lost absolutely, 100%, ALL of any human rights he ever had. THAT MEANS ALL, even the right to not be tortured.
 
"We do not torture such terrorists to punish them. God forbid we should do as they do. But if torture (used with repugnance) can stop even one such atrocity, our duty is hideously plain."

Sounds good to me.
 
What about sodium pentathol (or whatever it is called) i was under the impression that it could make anybody talk. Most likely I was wrong it seems.
 
LuvRPgrl said:
Anyways, its obvious what he is saying. We cant officially sanction torture, but we know it goes on, always has and always will, to bring up legislation against it is stupid and silly.

We're already signed up: the Geneva Convention.

LuvRPgrl said:
If the CIA or any other covert anti terrorist activity has a, without a doubt, terrorist on their hands, then as far as Im concerned, and many would agree, the terrorist has lost absolutely, 100%, ALL of any human rights he ever had. THAT MEANS ALL, even the right to not be tortured.

What about murderers without "terror" goals as such? Rapists? Why does "terror" forfeit human rights when other illegal deplorable actions bring legal action against you, but does not "forfeit your human rights"? You're treading a very slippery slope; I, for one, wouldn't condone torture under any circumstances.
 
nakedemperor said:
We're already signed up: the Geneva Convention.

The Geneva Convention does not apply to people who don't subscribe it. Al Qaeda is not a member of the Geneva Convention, nor was the Taliban, so if you want something that bans torture all together, the Geneva Convention just won't cut it.

What about murderers without "terror" goals as such? Rapists? Why does "terror" forfeit human rights when other illegal deplorable actions bring legal action against you, but does not "forfeit your human rights"? You're treading a very slippery slope; I, for one, wouldn't condone torture under any circumstances.

Actually, domestic terrorists with U.S. citizenship do have legal action levied against them instead of being put in Gitmo. However, foreign terrorists or those in the country illegally are not entitled to the same rights afforded to a U.S. citizen, no matter what so many people try to say about illegal Mexicans. In addition to this proviso, even legal residents can have their visas revoked if they commit an act of war, such as an attack on U.S. government property or a militarily motivated mass murder. Personally, I do have a problem with torture, but I won't lose any sleep about it as long as I never have to see it.
 
deaddude said:
What about sodium pentathol (or whatever it is called) i was under the impression that it could make anybody talk. Most likely I was wrong it seems.



way too may James Bond movies dude...SP makes one giddy and talkative,not necessasarily coherent...and while we are discussing torture...hey! what is torture to one may not be torture to another....some say tickling ones feet with a feather is torture....some people are saddists and love to be tortured....so to generalize what one considers to be torture may in reality be anothers pleasure...who knows...who cares...let the military and intell do their jobs without all this second guessing! :terror: :D
 
nakedemperor said:
We're already signed up: the Geneva Convention.



What about murderers without "terror" goals as such? Rapists? Why does "terror" forfeit human rights when other illegal deplorable actions bring legal action against you, but does not "forfeit your human rights"? You're treading a very slippery slope; I, for one, wouldn't condone torture under any circumstances.

Yea, untill you have a family member murder by a terrorist.

Murderers or rapists to be tortured? What would be the purpose, unless there is a network of rapists all working together. And yea, if say, a person was kidnapped and held somewhere, and without the kidnapper telling us where that person is, if torture is needed to get the info, then Im all for it. But there are some like you who think the rights of criminals outweighs the rights of people who have commited no crime.

Orwellean.
 
nakedemperor said:
What about murderers without "terror" goals as such? Rapists? Why does "terror" forfeit human rights when other illegal deplorable actions bring legal action against you, but does not "forfeit your human rights"? You're treading a very slippery slope; I, for one, wouldn't condone torture under any circumstances.

You'll have to explain yourself better regarding the above. I'm not following. What do you mean "what about murderers without "terror" goals as such? Rapists?" Do you mean that, in your opinion, the acts committed by murderers and rapists don't fall into the category of "terror"? In my opinion, they do. How is what murderers and rapists do different from what terrorists do? Such people forefeit their human rights--through their own actions--when they commit such crimes and find themselves confined to prison or executed for their crimes, whether as a result of civil action or military action.

Regarding your last sentence in the quote above: let's say a band of terrorists kidnap a group of people of which you are one and threaten to kill one member of this group each day until terrorists who are confined in our prisons/jails have been released. Now let's say that the FBI is able to nab one of the people involved in this plot for questioning. You're telling me that you would not want torture to be applied to this person if that's what it took to disclose the place where you and the others were being held captive so that your life could be saved?
 
Adam's Apple said:
You'll have to explain yourself better regarding the above. I'm not following. What do you mean "what about murderers without "terror" goals as such? Rapists?" Do you mean that, in your opinion, the acts committed by murderers and rapists don't fall into the category of "terror"? In my opinion, they do. How is what murderers and rapists do different from what terrorists do? Such people forefeit their human rights--through their own actions--when they commit such crimes and find themselves confined to prison or executed for their crimes, whether as a result of civil action or military action.

Regarding your last sentence in the quote above: let's say a band of terrorists kidnap a group of people of which you are one and threaten to kill one member of this group each day until terrorists who are confined in our prisons/jails have been released. Now let's say that the FBI is able to nab one of the people involved in this plot for questioning. You're telling me that you would not want torture to be applied to this person if that's what it took to disclose the place where you and the others were being held captive so that your life could be saved?

I don't disagree with the premise that there may be times to use 'alternative means to gain information'.

I do think though that there are crimes, such as murder and rape, that have nothing to do with 'terrorism' in the broader sense, that of which involves the WOT. While a rapist may terrorize an individual or even a whole community, it's his own sick psyche that is the instigator, not a plan to terrorize to create chaos.

While a group may employ terror techniques as in your 2nd paragraph, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have a 'broader goal'. If they in fact would stop the killing if they 'got their demands met', I think that would negate the charge of 'terrorism.'

Real terrorism, such as al Queda type, will not stop no matter how much they were appeased. They must be killed.
 
I don't disagree with the premise that there may be times to use 'alternative means to gain information'.

Good, we both agree with the premise of Gelernter's article that the use of torture may be necessary sometimes in the WOT.

I do think though that there are crimes, such as murder and rape, that have nothing to do with 'terrorism' in the broader sense, that of which involves the WOT. While a rapist may terrorize an individual or even a whole community, it's his own sick psyche that is the instigator, not a plan to terrorize to create chaos.

How are crimes such as murder and rape any different from crimes committed in the WOT in “its broader sense”? Both murder and rape are crimes against humanity, whether these are civil or military by nature. And both are used by the terrorists. Are you telling me that those who commit murder and rape as “civil” crimes do not think their acts will create chaos or terrorize their victims/people in their community? If so, I beg to differ; they certainly have that effect in my community. We will never know to what extent some form of torture is used by law enforcement to stop serious crimes. Hey, if that’s what it takes to make my living space secure from the criminals, you will get no complaint from me. I find no fault with the use of torture to end serious crimes at the civil or military level. The objective is to end the crime—however and whatever it takes.

While a group may employ terror techniques, as in your 2nd paragraph, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have a 'broader goal'. If they in fact would stop the killing if they 'got their demands met', I think that would negate the charge of 'terrorism.'

Every group, whether civil or military, choosing to employ terror tactics has a “broader goal” in mind. Do you think crime families, MS-13, satanic cults, etc. have no goal in mind?

Do you honestly think if the demands of the terrorists in my hypothetical case would be met, they would stop the killing? Appeasement at any level is just issuing a license to the criminal element to continue on. After all, it got good results for them, didn’t it?

Real terrorism, such as al Queda type, will not stop no matter how much they were appeased. They must be killed.

Ageed. Crime does not stop no matter how much we may appease the criminals. Crime and criminals with ever be with us. In my opinion, hardened criminals—terrorist or civil--need to be killed to rid society of their continuing threat.
 
While I am not philosophically opposed to the use of torture
in the sole case of extracting information from known terrorists,
I doubt we will ever obtain much reliable information from it.

A person under torture is liable to say anything, accurate or not,
to escape the pain. Also, what is to prevent such a person
from fingering people who are innocent, or, worse, who are
actually on our side?
 
USViking said:
While I am not philosophically opposed to the use of torture
in the sole case of extracting information from known terrorists,
I doubt we will ever obtain much reliable information from it.

A person under torture is liable to say anything, accurate or not,
to escape the pain. Also, what is to prevent such a person
from fingering people who are innocent, or, worse, who are
actually on our side?

Thats for our guys to figure out :)

Regarding the murderers and rapists, as far as Im concerned, they have forfeited all rights, and should be executed. As for using torture on them, I guess I wasnt so clear in my first response, there wouldnt be any reason to use torture on them. SO its a strawman,,,
 
LuvRPgrl said:
Thats for our guys to figure out :)

Regarding the murderers and rapists, as far as Im concerned, they have forfeited all rights, and should be executed. As for using torture on them, I guess I wasnt so clear in my first response, there wouldnt be any reason to use torture on them. SO its a strawman,,,

I was not replying to your post, I was replying
to the thesis of the thread, and your post made
no impression on me, being off the subject, as far
as I could tell.
 
USViking said:
A person under torture is liable to say anything, accurate or not, to escape the pain. Also, what is to prevent such a person from fingering people who are innocent, or, worse, who are actually on our side?

I am sure all this happens. But I understand from what I have read that our tactics with the captured terrorists gave gotten good results, and we have been able to stop many planned attacks. Since all this politically correct flap about torture has started in the press, particularly in the Washington Post and the New York Times (those well-known political organs of the Democrat Party), I have noticed an increase in attacks by the terrorists. Has this outcry against the use of torture tactics from our mainstream press had an averse affect on our military's capability to fight the terrorists and stop them from succeeding? I am sure the DOD has had to take it into consideration when selecting measures to best fight and overcome the terrorists.

Since the military has far more experience conducting war than those in the MSM and the anti-war activists, I will leave it up to them to select what methods they think best to use. In war, all options should be on the table.
 

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