In a Perfect World...

[Gunny]

alucard... i think you might be a little too quick on your answers and defense of the issues i brought up...

they are all legitimate criticisms. imo

care

Y'think?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So many misconceptions and outright misinformation.

The 650 thousand dead figure is absolute fantasy, so even dividing it by half is a joke. Try dividing it by about 10? Unless you believe someone has a bottomless hole in the desert where the bodies are being dumped the numbers are ridiculous. Do the math, even assuming your 350 thousand were correct , in 4 years thats 1460 or so days. Thats 239 or so dead a day, every day.

If that many were dieing why would the press only be reporting about miniscule strikes that kill 20 people?

Also you would have to believe that the Iraq Government was only issueing death certificates for about 1/10th the dead.

Now on to the Troop numbers. One, the Turkish Government refused to allow the 4th Division through preventing that force from participating in the invasion. Kuwait was busting at the seems with the troops we had there to begin with. Where exactly would another several hundred thousand troops have invaded from? This of course assuming we had another several hundred thousand troops AND could then have sustained them for 4 years at that level.

We have reports and screams from the left that the "occupation" force NOW is to big to maintain, that we are damaging the military and destroying its ability to fight. How would we have found 200000 more troops for 4 years?

There is a way to shut down the borders nearly effectively. Lets recall though all the "peaceful "wedding parties" that were slaughtered by the evil US military machine. Wedding parties in the middle of no where, desert landscape with no reason to have a "wedding" to begin with.

We could declare the borders of Iraq a free fire zone and use aircraft to destroy most anything above a couple guys and a camel crossing it. I wonder what your complaints would be then?

Finally this type of conflict takes YEARS to resolve. There is no quick fix, no fast way to "victory" and Bush told EVERYONE it would take years.

The infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed. Except those locations where Saddam and buddies had a need, running water and electricity were nearly non existant. We could no more have gotten the grids up instantly than have wished the tooth fairy would arrive and fix everyones teeth. Currently the Iraq civilians have more running water, more electricity then they did under Saddam Hussein. It is hard to maintain and harder to expand when random terrorists and "freedom" fighters blow up the stations and rip apart the infrastructure. Add in people ransacking stations so they can sell stuff from them and you have a very interesting time "improving" their lot.

Saddam Hussein didn't even know where all his munitions were. he had dumps with years and years of stored ammunition. he had stuff dating back 40 years. The military WAS unprepared for the occupation but even with more troops it would have STILL been unprepared. The plans were NOT made to do that. Doesn't matter how many troops you have if you don't plan to do something it wont get done.

As for the Baathists, you are aware one of the nefarious complaints leveled by the Liberals is that we should NOT have disbanded the old Iraq Army? A real complaint would be the fact that we didn't actively seek out and utterly destroy by combat the Republican Guard units.

Mistakes were made. Happens in EVERY war and will continue to happen in the future. The question becomes should we tuck our tails between our legs and run or should we do the right thing and ensure Iraq can protect itself?

 

[Gunny]

So many misconceptions and outright misinformation.

The 650 thousand dead figure is absolute fantasy, so even dividing it by half is a joke. Try dividing it by about 10? Unless you believe someone has a bottomless hole in the desert where the bodies are being dumped the numbers are ridiculous. Do the math, even assuming your 350 thousand were correct , in 4 years thats 1460 or so days. Thats 239 or so dead a day, every day.

If that many were dieing why would the press only be reporting about miniscule strikes that kill 20 people?

Also you would have to believe that the Iraq Government was only issueing death certificates for about 1/10th the dead.

Now on to the Troop numbers. One, the Turkish Government refused to allow the 4th Division through preventing that force from participating in the invasion. Kuwait was busting at the seems with the troops we had there to begin with. Where exactly would another several hundred thousand troops have invaded from? This of course assuming we had another several hundred thousand troops AND could then have sustained them for 4 years at that level.

We have reports and screams from the left that the "occupation" force NOW is to big to maintain, that we are damaging the military and destroying its ability to fight. How would we have found 200000 more troops for 4 years?

There is a way to shut down the borders nearly effectively. Lets recall though all the "peaceful "wedding parties" that were slaughtered by the evil US military machine. Wedding parties in the middle of no where, desert landscape with no reason to have a "wedding" to begin with.

We could declare the borders of Iraq a free fire zone and use aircraft to destroy most anything above a couple guys and a camel crossing it. I wonder what your complaints would be then?

Finally this type of conflict takes YEARS to resolve. There is no quick fix, no fast way to "victory" and Bush told EVERYONE it would take years.

The infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed. Except those locations where Saddam and buddies had a need, running water and electricity were nearly non existant. We could no more have gotten the grids up instantly than have wished the tooth fairy would arrive and fix everyones teeth. Currently the Iraq civilians have more running water, more electricity then they did under Saddam Hussein. It is hard to maintain and harder to expand when random terrorists and "freedom" fighters blow up the stations and rip apart the infrastructure. Add in people ransacking stations so they can sell stuff from them and you have a very interesting time "improving" their lot.

Saddam Hussein didn't even know where all his munitions were. he had dumps with years and years of stored ammunition. he had stuff dating back 40 years. The military WAS unprepared for the occupation but even with more troops it would have STILL been unprepared. The plans were NOT made to do that. Doesn't matter how many troops you have if you don't plan to do something it wont get done.

As for the Baathists, you are aware one of the nefarious complaints leveled by the Liberals is that we should NOT have disbanded the old Iraq Army? A real complaint would be the fact that we didn't actively seek out and utterly destroy by combat the Republican Guard units.

Mistakes were made. Happens in EVERY war and will continue to happen in the future. The question becomes should we tuck our tails between our legs and run or should we do the right thing and ensure Iraq can protect itself?

Well said. I'm tired of the defeatists, and the blame artists who are STILL trying to point a finger at Bush for invading. We did. Period.

We need to do what is best for Iraq, and the Middle East. That is NOT leaving Iraq to the fundies.

 

[Care4all]

Wow. Got those talking points down, huh?

I read alot...and surprisingly and probably to your dismay, not one thing I read is from going to media matters, move on. org and the democratic underground!

WOW....that must shatter you!

Oh, and btw.....let's see you honestly critique the Iraq war.... or is that a no, no?

Do you need talking points to do such as a REPUBLICAN (that you say you are not)?


Ohhhh, they are only talking points when they come from those UNAMERICAN DEMOCRATS, huh? Shame on you!

Care

 

[Care4all]

So many misconceptions and outright misinformation.

The 650 thousand dead figure is absolute fantasy, so even dividing it by half is a joke. Try dividing it by about 10? Unless you believe someone has a bottomless hole in the desert where the bodies are being dumped the numbers are ridiculous. Do the math, even assuming your 350 thousand were correct , in 4 years thats 1460 or so days. Thats 239 or so dead a day, every day.

If that many were dieing why would the press only be reporting about miniscule strikes that kill 20 people?

Also you would have to believe that the Iraq Government was only issueing death certificates for about 1/10th the dead.

Now on to the Troop numbers. One, the Turkish Government refused to allow the 4th Division through preventing that force from participating in the invasion. Kuwait was busting at the seems with the troops we had there to begin with. Where exactly would another several hundred thousand troops have invaded from? This of course assuming we had another several hundred thousand troops AND could then have sustained them for 4 years at that level.

We have reports and screams from the left that the "occupation" force NOW is to big to maintain, that we are damaging the military and destroying its ability to fight. How would we have found 200000 more troops for 4 years?

There is a way to shut down the borders nearly effectively. Lets recall though all the "peaceful "wedding parties" that were slaughtered by the evil US military machine. Wedding parties in the middle of no where, desert landscape with no reason to have a "wedding" to begin with.

We could declare the borders of Iraq a free fire zone and use aircraft to destroy most anything above a couple guys and a camel crossing it. I wonder what your complaints would be then?

Finally this type of conflict takes YEARS to resolve. There is no quick fix, no fast way to "victory" and Bush told EVERYONE it would take years.

The infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed. Except those locations where Saddam and buddies had a need, running water and electricity were nearly non existant. We could no more have gotten the grids up instantly than have wished the tooth fairy would arrive and fix everyones teeth. Currently the Iraq civilians have more running water, more electricity then they did under Saddam Hussein. It is hard to maintain and harder to expand when random terrorists and "freedom" fighters blow up the stations and rip apart the infrastructure. Add in people ransacking stations so they can sell stuff from them and you have a very interesting time "improving" their lot.

Saddam Hussein didn't even know where all his munitions were. he had dumps with years and years of stored ammunition. he had stuff dating back 40 years. The military WAS unprepared for the occupation but even with more troops it would have STILL been unprepared. The plans were NOT made to do that. Doesn't matter how many troops you have if you don't plan to do something it wont get done.

As for the Baathists, you are aware one of the nefarious complaints leveled by the Liberals is that we should NOT have disbanded the old Iraq Army? A real complaint would be the fact that we didn't actively seek out and utterly destroy by combat the Republican Guard units.

Mistakes were made. Happens in EVERY war and will continue to happen in the future. The question becomes should we tuck our tails between our legs and run or should we do the right thing and ensure Iraq can protect itself?

YOu need to read the Powell Doctrine.

If we had put the overwhelming FORCE there from the beginning we WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED the extra 200k in forces for the next 4 years because we would have had the control that was NEEDED and required IN THE BEGINNING TO SECURE THE COUNTRY.....70 K would have probably been sufficient after that....?

Care

 

[Shattered]

YOu need to read the Powell Doctrine.

If we had put the overwhelming FORCE there from the beginning we WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED the extra 200k in forces for the next 4 years because we would have had the control that was NEEDED and required IN THE BEGINNING TO SECURE THE COUNTRY.....70 K would have probably been sufficient after that....?

Care

It's a wonder you're not standing right up there with the best of them while you're telling them what should have been done.. Why is that again?

 

[Care4all]

It's a wonder you're not standing right up there with the best of them while you're telling them what should have been done.. Why is that again?

Because it is my first amendment right, WHY do you ask?

And surely YOU have never given YOUR opinion of the war....are you standing with the best of them too?

Care

 

[Psychoblues]

Killing is a sign of strength, C4a.

Well... In an Almost Perfect World...

Wouldn't it be great if the EU and all of their countries, the UN whole heartedly, and the surrounding middle east countries around Iraq would decide that for their own personal benefit, it would be in their very best interest, to send peace keepers, and forces, and humanitarians, and electritians, and plumbers, and teachers, and doctors and nurses in to Iraq so that it could stand as a country in peace?

I know it is a dream, but man oh man, we really could use some help with our "mess ups"....

Why isn't groveling permitted? Is it a "male hormone" thing or what? I would have been on my knees already if I were President, begging for forgiveness in flubbing it and asking for help from our allies....groveling, so to say, for the help!

care

With about 3400 US dead and a half million Iraqi dead I'd say that is absolutely STRONG!!!!!!!! Wouldn't you?

Why grovel until the worst settles the argument at hand? Have you got it yet?

 

[Shattered]

Because it is my first amendment right, WHY do you ask?

And surely YOU have never given YOUR opinion of the war....are you standing with the best of them too?

Care

Actually, no I haven't. I don't bother telling people what they can do better if I haven't done that same job myself. Because until you're standing right there, you don't know WTF you're talking about.

 

[Care4all]

Actually, no I haven't. I don't bother telling people what they can do better if I haven't done that same job myself. Because until you're standing right there, you don't know WTF you're talking about.

Then why bother coming to these message boards on politics to DEBATE and give opinions?

Are you saying that unless you have done the job yourself you never discuss such jobs regardless of what they are....not even to learn about them?

Get off your high horse shattered and get real....

you are NOT ABOVE IT ALL....as you seem to believe about yourself... or are trying to portray to me and the board....

And if you are, then more power to ya....

(you had a clear point on how you felt about abortion....HAVE YOU HAD ONE? have you performed one as a gyno? So where do you get the right to discuss it if you haven't?)

Care

 

[Shattered]

Then why bother coming to these message boards on politics to DEBATE and give opinions?

Are you saying that unless you have done the job yourself you never discuss such jobs regardless of what they are....not even to learn about them?

Get off your high horse shattered and get real....

you are NOT ABOVE IT ALL....as you seem to believe about yourself... or are trying to portray to me and the board....

And if you are, then more power to ya....

(you had a clear point on how you felt about abortion....HAVE YOU HAD ONE? have you performed one as a gyno? So where do you get the right to discuss it if you haven't?)

Care

LOL! There goes that charmschool cuteness - she's actually got a temper..

As for abortions, I've been about as close to more than one as you can get without actually having one.. I'm also a firm believer in personal responsibility, as you should have already figured out, and yes that comes from personal experience.

Unlike you, however, I do not claim to be a knowitall, and drop my instructions in every thread, telling everyone ELSE what they're doing wrong, while failing to make any corrections in my own character flaws.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback when someone else is protecting you thus allowing you to sit on your ass and make judgement calls against the very people that are protecting you, isn't it?

 

[Shattered]

Incidently, Care.. There's a difference between telling someone what they're doing WRONG in a job you've never done vs. talking about something to learn about it. When you're talking to learn, your own mouth is actually CLOSED from time to time.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Killing is a sign of strength, C4a.




With about 3400 US dead and a half million Iraqi dead I'd say that is absolutely STRONG!!!!!!!! Wouldn't you?

Why grovel until the worst settles the argument at hand? Have you got it yet?

Again for the truly slow do the math... 500k dead in 4 years is well over 300 dead a day for 4 years. Simply hasn't happened.

 

[Care4all]

LOL! There goes that charmschool cuteness - she's actually got a temper..

As for abortions, I've been about as close to more than one as you can get without actually having one.. I'm also a firm believer in personal responsibility, as you should have already figured out, and yes that comes from personal experience.

Unlike you, however, I do not claim to be a knowitall, and drop my opinion in every thread, telling everyone ELSE what they're doing wrong, while failing to make any corrections in my own character flaws.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback when someone else is protecting you thus allowing you to sit on your ass and make judgement calls against the very people that are protecting you, isn't it?

Get off your high horse....wasn't cute?

Sorry, can't oblidge your demand or request....this is a debate board on politics....the WAR falls right in there!

And I have NEVER said it was MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.... I am up for deiscussion, debate and I do listen to the differing opinions.

THERE IS NO ONE on this board that has the "right" to discuss Iraq according to YOUR standards, yet others are chiming in all the time regarding it...

I haven't seen you try to SHUT THEM UP on it.... hmmmm, wonder why?

and good morning to ya Shattered!

Care

 

[Shattered]

Get off your high horse....wasn't cute?

Sorry, can't oblidge your demand or request....this is a debate board on politics....the WAR falls right in there!

And I have NEVER said it was MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.... I am up for deiscussion, debate and I do listen to the differing opinions.

THERE IS NO ONE on this board that has the "right" to discuss Iraq according to YOUR standards, yet others are chiming in all the time regarding it...

I haven't seen you try to SHUT THEM UP on it.... hmmmm, wonder why?

and good morning to ya Shattered!

Care

Nobody else has covered the entire worlds problems in one fell swoop as you have.. You've posted what needs to be done differently by the people fighting this war, and you've told everyone on this board what they should be reading, since obviously they're too stupid to agree with you right off the bat.

 

[Psychoblues]

Denial will not win you friends or improve your image, RGS.

Again for the truly slow do the math... 500k dead in 4 years is well over 300 dead a day for 4 years. Simply hasn't happened.

But, maybe I am wrong. There may be a few here that will befriend you. Godd luck with them.

 

[Care4all]

Nobody else has covered the entire worlds problems in one fell swoop as you have.. You've posted what needs to be done differently by the people fighting this war, and you've told everyone on this board what they should be reading, since obviously they're too stupid to agree with you right off the bat.

ok.

put your money where your mouth is and show me where I have done what you IMAGINED on this thread....

I can "learn" from it....

so let's have your critic of my Thread/Posts regarding where I did this....

I'll be waiting for examples or your apology.

Care

 

[Shattered]

ok.

put your money where your mouth is and show me where I have done what you IMAGINED on this thread....

I can "learn" from it....

so let's have your critic of my Thread/Posts regarding where I did this....

I'll be waiting for examples or your apology.

Care

Not that it's so far back that you can't find, or remember it, but here you go.. This is the post of yours that I responded to.

YOu need to read the Powell Doctrine.

If we had put the overwhelming FORCE there from the beginning we WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED the extra 200k in forces for the next 4 years because we would have had the control that was NEEDED and required IN THE BEGINNING TO SECURE THE COUNTRY.....70 K would have probably been sufficient after that....?

Care

It's a wonder you're not standing right up there with the best of them while you're telling them what should have been done.. Why is that again?

 

[Care4all]

Not that it's so far back that you can't find, or remember it, but here you go.. This is the post of yours that I responded to.

And IF YOU HAD LOOKED a little further, I was RESPONDING to a STATEMENT of someone elses....

i did NOT bring this up out of the clear blue....

NOW, please tell me again WHY you did not "question" the person that brought this up, that I responded to?

A little "one sided"?

hmmmmmmmmmmmm....

I started this thread and it was a "positive" thread and a wish and a dream...

Shakes head....

Care

 

[Shattered]

And IF YOU HAD LOOKED a little further, I was RESPONDING to a STATEMENT of someone elses....

i did NOT bring this up out of the clear blue....

NOW, please tell me again WHY you did not "question" the person that brought this up, that I responded to?

A little "one sided"?

hmmmmmmmmmmmm....

I started this thread and it was a "positive" thread and a wish and a dream...

Shakes head....

Care

Simple. He didn't presume to tell others how to do their job - you did. He's been there, in some fashion. You haven't.

You can put your claws away now - I just wanted to see if you really had a temper, or if you're actually as demure and polite as you try to make yourself seem.