CDZ IMMIGRATION: Not what it is but what it should be.

[Flopper]

we shouldn't let in people who are not MD's, dentists, engineers, physicists, math professors, and the like. We need to get rid of the 30 million lettuce-pickers.

So you're planning a career picking lettuce

 

[Flopper]

I think one helpful thing would be to tie the immigration rate to the unemployment rate.

When we have higher unemployment, allow fewer and fewer people in; forcing companies to either do without or hire people who are already here.
When unemployment is lower, you allow more people in since they will not be the equivalent of payday mercenaries.

The trick would be were to set the trigger that will close the door but whatever it is; the reporting rate doesn't really report the true unemployment number. People who have stopped looking for work are not reported. So whatever the trigger unemployment figure is, give it six more months before you start allowing people in.

Your suggestion is based on idea that immigrants displace US workers. Economists have found that immigration has only a minor influence on unemployment and may actually increase employment and wages. One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. For example, low-skilled immigrant laborers allow U.S.-born farmers, contractors, and craftsmen to expand agricultural production or to build more homes—thereby expanding employment possibilities and incomes for U.S. workers.

 

[candycorn]

I think one helpful thing would be to tie the immigration rate to the unemployment rate.

When we have higher unemployment, allow fewer and fewer people in; forcing companies to either do without or hire people who are already here.
When unemployment is lower, you allow more people in since they will not be the equivalent of payday mercenaries.

The trick would be were to set the trigger that will close the door but whatever it is; the reporting rate doesn't really report the true unemployment number. People who have stopped looking for work are not reported. So whatever the trigger unemployment figure is, give it six more months before you start allowing people in.

Your suggestion is based on idea that immigrants displace US workers. Economists have found that immigration has only a minor influence on unemployment and may actually increase employment and wages. One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. For example, low-skilled immigrant laborers allow U.S.-born farmers, contractors, and craftsmen to expand agricultural production or to build more homes—thereby expanding employment possibilities and incomes for U.S. workers.

I’ll take you at your word.

Economies are like human bodies; not every function and fidget can be easily explained. What I am endorsing is that we should give stuff like what I mentioned a try and see what happens. The basic formula seems to be a winner: You have X number of jobs and a greater number of applicants for those jobs, competition will be increased. Lower the number of applicants and you have less competition. And I wasn’t talking about Juan Doe from Mexico (hey, that rhymes!!!), I mean we stop allowing in Engineers from Estonia, Mechanics from Madagascar, Chefs from China….as well as low paying deck-ape labor.

 

[Picaro]

we shouldn't let in people who are not MD's, dentists, engineers, physicists, math professors, and the like. We need to get rid of the 30 million lettuce-pickers.

Well, less than 2% of them are 'picking crops' of any kind, that's a myth as well, invented to scare middle class Burb Brats into believing the grocery stores would be empty or something if we didn't have 30 + million criminal illegal aliens around. Growing season for the entire country is less than 20 weeks, anyway, so what are they allegedly doing here the other 32 weeks of the year? lol lol lol

 

[Picaro]

Without birthright citizenship a person born in the US whose parents are residents, either legal or illegal will not be citizens nor will their offspring or any of their descendants. It would create a permanent underclass in our nation who lack the right to vote and other rights reserved for citizens. This is exactly what our forefathers came to America to escape. We pride ourselves on being a classless society where all men are created equal and it should remain so.

I disagree. Jus sanguinis is the policy of most developed nations. And it would eliminate a lot of problems we are now having.

It would also cause a lot of problems as it does in Europe where Jus Sanguinis is common. Jus Sanguinis creates a permanent lower class who lack the right to vote and often other rights of citizens. Most of these country have a long tradition of rigid class structure and poor integration of immigrants where the lack of upward mobility is commonly accepted.

In the USA, we pride ourselves on being a classless society where every American has the same rights and responsibility. This is one of the things that makes our country great. Any American can run for public office or even become president. If you have what takes, it's doesn't matter where your parents came from, the sky is the limit.

There is certainly no bigger creator of a 'lower class' here than the anchor babies born to poor illegal mothers with little chance of moving into the middle class.

Jus sanguinis is the surest way to deal with that particular problem. We are a classless society here in America except for the artificial class created through the intolerance of progressivism and an entrenched permanent political class that deliberately sees to it that anybody not in their club won't have much chance to succeed.

Otherwise, a U.S. citizen, even one among some of the poorest of the poor, can aspire to the American dream. I know because I was one of those.

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

 

[Flopper]

I think one helpful thing would be to tie the immigration rate to the unemployment rate.

When we have higher unemployment, allow fewer and fewer people in; forcing companies to either do without or hire people who are already here.
When unemployment is lower, you allow more people in since they will not be the equivalent of payday mercenaries.

The trick would be were to set the trigger that will close the door but whatever it is; the reporting rate doesn't really report the true unemployment number. People who have stopped looking for work are not reported. So whatever the trigger unemployment figure is, give it six more months before you start allowing people in.

Your suggestion is based on idea that immigrants displace US workers. Economists have found that immigration has only a minor influence on unemployment and may actually increase employment and wages. One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. For example, low-skilled immigrant laborers allow U.S.-born farmers, contractors, and craftsmen to expand agricultural production or to build more homes—thereby expanding employment possibilities and incomes for U.S. workers.

I’ll take you at your word.

Economies are like human bodies; not every function and fidget can be easily explained. What I am endorsing is that we should give stuff like what I mentioned a try and see what happens. The basic formula seems to be a winner: You have X number of jobs and a greater number of applicants for those jobs, competition will be increased. Lower the number of applicants and you have less competition. And I wasn’t talking about Juan Doe from Mexico (hey, that rhymes!!!), I mean we stop allowing in Engineers from Estonia, Mechanics from Madagascar, Chefs from China….as well as low paying deck-ape labor.

I still think you're missing my point. Almost all our crops are picked by immigrants, legal and illegal and their children so they do not compete with native born Americans for jobs. High skilled jobs that we can't filled are being filled by H-1B workers. Again they are not competing with US workers. The remaining group of immigrants have little impact on employment.

 

[candycorn]

I think one helpful thing would be to tie the immigration rate to the unemployment rate.

When we have higher unemployment, allow fewer and fewer people in; forcing companies to either do without or hire people who are already here.
When unemployment is lower, you allow more people in since they will not be the equivalent of payday mercenaries.

The trick would be were to set the trigger that will close the door but whatever it is; the reporting rate doesn't really report the true unemployment number. People who have stopped looking for work are not reported. So whatever the trigger unemployment figure is, give it six more months before you start allowing people in.

Your suggestion is based on idea that immigrants displace US workers. Economists have found that immigration has only a minor influence on unemployment and may actually increase employment and wages. One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. For example, low-skilled immigrant laborers allow U.S.-born farmers, contractors, and craftsmen to expand agricultural production or to build more homes—thereby expanding employment possibilities and incomes for U.S. workers.

I’ll take you at your word.

Economies are like human bodies; not every function and fidget can be easily explained. What I am endorsing is that we should give stuff like what I mentioned a try and see what happens. The basic formula seems to be a winner: You have X number of jobs and a greater number of applicants for those jobs, competition will be increased. Lower the number of applicants and you have less competition. And I wasn’t talking about Juan Doe from Mexico (hey, that rhymes!!!), I mean we stop allowing in Engineers from Estonia, Mechanics from Madagascar, Chefs from China….as well as low paying deck-ape labor.

I still think you're missing my point. Almost all our crops are picked by immigrants, legal and illegal and their children so they do not compete with native born Americans for jobs.

I understand what you're saying. It's hard work for low wages and Americans are not accustomed to that. Perhaps that needs to change???

High skilled jobs that we can't filled are being filled by H-1B workers. Again they are not competing with US workers.

See, I'm not so sure that is the case. On one hand, you may find (don't know for sure or how to quantify it) that companies find it cheaper to hire the system analyst who is an immigrant than to hire the American. So there is competition. Just like if Bechtel bids on a job and is undercut by Halliburton. On the other hand, you may find that the immigrant is better qualified than the American. Again, that is competition.

My point is this...if unemployment goes above the trigger point you shut the door. Microsoft then has to either hire the American who is more expensive or not as qualified.
Now that is just one example. In the realm of computers, you can usually just offshore the labor. But for mechanics, chefs, surgeons, artisans, you can't send the work overseas.

The remaining group of immigrants have little impact on employment.

Correct. But they do tax our social services. Everything from university class sizes thus perhaps degrading the education students receive to traffic on the freeways.

Again, I think it would be instructive (if nothing else) to see what happens if we just stopped allowing so many people in--from everywhere--and focused more of our resources on those who are already here. Perhaps it would be a monumental flop....but I think we would find some benefit to forcing companies to hire natives first.

 

[Flopper]

I disagree. Jus sanguinis is the policy of most developed nations. And it would eliminate a lot of problems we are now having.

It would also cause a lot of problems as it does in Europe where Jus Sanguinis is common. Jus Sanguinis creates a permanent lower class who lack the right to vote and often other rights of citizens. Most of these country have a long tradition of rigid class structure and poor integration of immigrants where the lack of upward mobility is commonly accepted.

In the USA, we pride ourselves on being a classless society where every American has the same rights and responsibility. This is one of the things that makes our country great. Any American can run for public office or even become president. If you have what takes, it's doesn't matter where your parents came from, the sky is the limit.

There is certainly no bigger creator of a 'lower class' here than the anchor babies born to poor illegal mothers with little chance of moving into the middle class.

Jus sanguinis is the surest way to deal with that particular problem. We are a classless society here in America except for the artificial class created through the intolerance of progressivism and an entrenched permanent political class that deliberately sees to it that anybody not in their club won't have much chance to succeed.

Otherwise, a U.S. citizen, even one among some of the poorest of the poor, can aspire to the American dream. I know because I was one of those.

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

 

[Foxfyre]

I disagree. Jus sanguinis is the policy of most developed nations. And it would eliminate a lot of problems we are now having.

It would also cause a lot of problems as it does in Europe where Jus Sanguinis is common. Jus Sanguinis creates a permanent lower class who lack the right to vote and often other rights of citizens. Most of these country have a long tradition of rigid class structure and poor integration of immigrants where the lack of upward mobility is commonly accepted.

In the USA, we pride ourselves on being a classless society where every American has the same rights and responsibility. This is one of the things that makes our country great. Any American can run for public office or even become president. If you have what takes, it's doesn't matter where your parents came from, the sky is the limit.

There is certainly no bigger creator of a 'lower class' here than the anchor babies born to poor illegal mothers with little chance of moving into the middle class.

Jus sanguinis is the surest way to deal with that particular problem. We are a classless society here in America except for the artificial class created through the intolerance of progressivism and an entrenched permanent political class that deliberately sees to it that anybody not in their club won't have much chance to succeed.

Otherwise, a U.S. citizen, even one among some of the poorest of the poor, can aspire to the American dream. I know because I was one of those.

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

So what should the immigration law be?

 

[Foxfyre]

It would also cause a lot of problems as it does in Europe where Jus Sanguinis is common. Jus Sanguinis creates a permanent lower class who lack the right to vote and often other rights of citizens. Most of these country have a long tradition of rigid class structure and poor integration of immigrants where the lack of upward mobility is commonly accepted.

In the USA, we pride ourselves on being a classless society where every American has the same rights and responsibility. This is one of the things that makes our country great. Any American can run for public office or even become president. If you have what takes, it's doesn't matter where your parents came from, the sky is the limit.

There is certainly no bigger creator of a 'lower class' here than the anchor babies born to poor illegal mothers with little chance of moving into the middle class.

Jus sanguinis is the surest way to deal with that particular problem. We are a classless society here in America except for the artificial class created through the intolerance of progressivism and an entrenched permanent political class that deliberately sees to it that anybody not in their club won't have much chance to succeed.

Otherwise, a U.S. citizen, even one among some of the poorest of the poor, can aspire to the American dream. I know because I was one of those.

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

 

[Flopper]

There is certainly no bigger creator of a 'lower class' here than the anchor babies born to poor illegal mothers with little chance of moving into the middle class.

Jus sanguinis is the surest way to deal with that particular problem. We are a classless society here in America except for the artificial class created through the intolerance of progressivism and an entrenched permanent political class that deliberately sees to it that anybody not in their club won't have much chance to succeed.

Otherwise, a U.S. citizen, even one among some of the poorest of the poor, can aspire to the American dream. I know because I was one of those.

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

I answered your question in my reply #150 but once again,

The only thing that really makes sense is to start from scratch and forget about deporting 9 million people. Legalize those that are here now that is, make them permanent legal residents. Strengthen boarder security, with fences, electronic surveillance, and walls where appropriate. Create realistic immigration quotas, issue more work visas, develop a visa tracking system that works, enhance E-Verify, reduce the cost of legally entering the US and Clamp down hard of hiring illegals.

 

[william the wie]

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

I answered your question in my reply #150 but once again,

The only thing that really makes sense is to start from scratch and forget about deporting 9 million people. Legalize those that are here now that is, make them permanent legal residents. Strengthen boarder security, with fences, electronic surveillance, and walls where appropriate. Create realistic immigration quotas, issue more work visas, develop a visa tracking system that works, enhance E-Verify, reduce the cost of legally entering the US and Clamp down hard of hiring illegals.

With sanctuary cities and states this is a non-starter.

 

[Flopper]

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

I answered your question in my reply #150 but once again,

The only thing that really makes sense is to start from scratch and forget about deporting 9 million people. Legalize those that are here now that is, make them permanent legal residents. Strengthen boarder security, with fences, electronic surveillance, and walls where appropriate. Create realistic immigration quotas, issue more work visas, develop a visa tracking system that works, enhance E-Verify, reduce the cost of legally entering the US and Clamp down hard of hiring illegals.

With sanctuary cities and states this is a non-starter.

That does not make sense. Places friendly to undocumented immigrants would welcome legalization.

 

[william the wie]

Rescuing MS-13 from deportation is not real popular, in fact it is borderline insane.

 

[Flopper]

Rescuing MS-13 from deportation is not real popular, in fact it is borderline insane.

Legalizing of undocumented immigrants would not be universal. There would be stipulations and time limits.

 

[Foxfyre]

Claiming Jus sangunis would stop women from coming to the US to have babies is ridiculous because most women do not enter the US to have babies and second they don't plan to make the US their home. They come to the US to make money and return home.

You really think a significant number of women would risk their lives sneaking into the US, not to get a job but to have a baby that they would probably not be able to support and would keep them from working, all so that child just might be able to keep them in the US if they happen to be arrested. Even more fanciful is to think Jus sanguinis would change their mind about coming to the US.

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

I answered your question in my reply #150 but once again,

The only thing that really makes sense is to start from scratch and forget about deporting 9 million people. Legalize those that are here now that is, make them permanent legal residents. Strengthen boarder security, with fences, electronic surveillance, and walls where appropriate. Create realistic immigration quotas, issue more work visas, develop a visa tracking system that works, enhance E-Verify, reduce the cost of legally entering the US and Clamp down hard of hiring illegals.

Nine million people? Make that somewhere between 12 and 20 million and possibly more.

Blanket amnesty has not worked in the past and only served to encourage the numbers of those coming illegaly to triple and more.

And it is grossly unfair to the 4.4+ million who have been patiently waiting for their visas to be approved to immigrate here legally. And those include 1.4 million Mexicans who wish to immigrate to the USA but are doing that legally.

I can't get on board with that one.

Otherwise I could support most or all of the rest.

 

[Picaro]

Yes, a significant number of women do just that.

Number of babies born in U.S. to unauthorized immigrants declines

8% of U.S. births were anchor babies in 2013, down from 9% in 2007. So we aren't talking just a few but hundreds of thousands.

Now admittedly a lot of those were conceived after the women were already here illegally, but the number who cross while pregnant for the purpose of producing an 'anchor baby' is not insignificant:
Duncan on Mexican Women Who Cross U.S. Border to Give Birth: ‘These Are Our Kids’

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

I answered your question in my reply #150 but once again,

The only thing that really makes sense is to start from scratch and forget about deporting 9 million people. Legalize those that are here now that is, make them permanent legal residents. Strengthen boarder security, with fences, electronic surveillance, and walls where appropriate. Create realistic immigration quotas, issue more work visas, develop a visa tracking system that works, enhance E-Verify, reduce the cost of legally entering the US and Clamp down hard of hiring illegals.

Nine million people? Make that somewhere between 12 and 20 million and possibly more.

Blanket amnesty has not worked in the past and only served to encourage the numbers of those coming illegaly to triple and more.

And it is grossly unfair to the 4.4+ million who have been patiently waiting for their visas to be approved to immigrate here legally. And those include 1.4 million Mexicans who wish to immigrate to the USA but are doing that legally.

I can't get on board with that one.

Otherwise I could support most or all of the rest.

They've been citing the '11 million' number since the 1980's. it's more like 30 million +, conservative estimate, and of course they lie about illegal not using public health services and Federal aid of all kinds, and of course bankrupting local school districts as well, filling up prisons, etc. The racists will lie no end about the havoc created by 'open borders', and naturally they harass no other country in the world over their immigration policies, just the U.S., for some reason; that reason is they're racist Commies who hate this country for its imaginary 'sins', and for proving that minorities routinely fail no matter how much they're helped; they got the quotas from Nixon, and they can only keep blaming Whitey for their repetitive failures as a demographic, high school dropout rates, high crime, etc., and they hope they can swamp the country demographically and vote themselves Nirvana at everybody else's expense. 'Flopper' is all for that because he thinks it will not harm him personally, is all.

 

[Flopper]

We have been been changing immigration laws for over a hundred years and every time we change them it is unfair to some group. For hundreds of thousands of Europeans who waited for years to come to this country in the 50's, the 1965 immigration bill that opened the flood gates was certainly a slap in the face. Was it fair to thousands of refugees waiting in UN refugees camps for visas only to have the door slammed in their face at last minute because we changed our quotas? There is nothing fair about immigration. It's purpose is to control immigration for the good of the country not for immigrants.

 

[Flopper]

Sound like 'low percentages', but then what is ''8%' of 330 million, versus '8%' of the U.S. population in 1965, when the immigration laws were changed?

We aren't even producing enough adequate paying jobs for our current population growth, haven't for many years, much less continuing to compound the numbers annually, and adding fresh illegal immigration on top of that. Criminal illegal aliens have destroyed the social safety nets and many school systems in out most populous states. They no longer even need to assimilate, an even bigger problem.

I agree that illegal aliens are a huge problem. The crux of the problem is not the fact they are Hispanic, or even that they are illegally in the country or that they are low to semiskilled workers. The major problem is they are undocumented and subject to arrest at any time. This results in a permanent subculture in the country. Parents select neighborhoods that are safe which means it’s Hispanics, and lots of illegal immigrants, jobs are taken where employers aren’t concerned with citizenship which usually means dead-end, low paying jobs, gangs, and temp work. They tell their children to avoid Anglos, don’t attract attention to yourself in school. And at the first sign of real danger the family moves. The result is only 40% of the kids finish high schools and only 5% seek any higher education. They do not assimilate into the culture and become a social problem for the community that continues for generations.

I do not agree that illegal aliens are destroying our social safety net. They pay Social Security that they are ineligible to draw to the tune of 17 billion a year including employer contributions. They pay over 2.5 billion for Medicare that they are ineligible to receive. In addition they pay sales and income tax which help support our schools.

Despite all the propaganda claiming most of Medicaid and Welfare dollars go to illegal immigrants, it is simply not true. It is illegal to pay any federal dollars to illegal immigrants. Only those children of illegal immigrants born in the US receive any federal aid. For example the average family on SNAP with 5 members, 2 being children that are US citizens would receive $187/mo in food compared to $740 for the same family if all were US citizens. However, the facts are that most families containing a mix of illegals and US citizens don't apply for SNAP or other benefits because the citizenship of each member of the family must be verified which makes them prime targets for deportation.

So what should the immigration laws be?

I answered your question in my reply #150 but once again,

The only thing that really makes sense is to start from scratch and forget about deporting 9 million people. Legalize those that are here now that is, make them permanent legal residents. Strengthen boarder security, with fences, electronic surveillance, and walls where appropriate. Create realistic immigration quotas, issue more work visas, develop a visa tracking system that works, enhance E-Verify, reduce the cost of legally entering the US and Clamp down hard of hiring illegals.

Nine million people? Make that somewhere between 12 and 20 million and possibly more.

Blanket amnesty has not worked in the past and only served to encourage the numbers of those coming illegaly to triple and more.

And it is grossly unfair to the 4.4+ million who have been patiently waiting for their visas to be approved to immigrate here legally. And those include 1.4 million Mexicans who wish to immigrate to the USA but are doing that legally.

I can't get on board with that one.

Otherwise I could support most or all of the rest.

They've been citing the '11 million' number since the 1980's. it's more like 30 million +, conservative estimate, and of course they lie about illegal not using public health services and Federal aid of all kinds, and of course bankrupting local school districts as well, filling up prisons, etc. The racists will lie no end about the havoc created by 'open borders', and naturally they harass no other country in the world over their immigration policies, just the U.S., for some reason; that reason is they're racist Commies who hate this country for its imaginary 'sins', and for proving that minorities routinely fail no matter how much they're helped; they got the quotas from Nixon, and they can only keep blaming Whitey for their repetitive failures as a demographic, high school dropout rates, high crime, etc., and they hope they can swamp the country demographically and vote themselves Nirvana at everybody else's expense. 'Flopper' is all for that because he thinks it will not harm him personally, is all.

OK, 12 million. Since illegal immigrants are undocumented there is no way of know how many there really are. We can only estimated based on census questionnaires.

We should legalize undocumented immigrants because it is the only sure way to reduce the number of illegal immigrants. Deporting 270,000 in 2017 under Trump is not working any better than deporting 413,000 under Obama in 2013, or 319,000 under Bush. 80% of those deported are picked up crossing border, at boarder crossing or within 30 miles of the Boarder. That is not were most of your 12 million illegal immigrants are. Internal deportations, (greater than 30 miles from the boarder) are averaging only about 50,000 a year. These deportations are mostly for overstaying visas and are mostly voluntary. In other words, what we doing is keeping the number illegal immigrants from increasing. At the current rate of deportation it would take about 240 years to remove all the illegal immigrants.

The amnesty in 1986 didn't fail. What failed was the rest of the legislation. The promised increase in boarder security didn't happen. Although penalties were put on knowingly hiring illegal immigrants, there was no effective way for employers to determine if applicants were legal and there was no enforcement. As I'm sure you are aware, illegal immigrants continued to poured across the boarder and they had no problem finding employment.

In 1980, there were only 2,238 boarder patrol agents. Since then there have been 4 increases. The total under Obama was 21,730. In addition we have increased air surveillance by a factor of 10, we have added hundreds of miles of electronic surveillance, 650 miles of new fences. And Trump is promising to build a wall on the boarder. The increased boarder security and deportations are keeping illegal immigration in check. There is no reason to suspect that legalizing illegal immigrants today as a part of a comprehensive immigration bill would result in a repeat of disaster of the 1986 immigration bill.

BTW Immigration laws have never been fair. Ask the Europeans that waited years in 50's to enter the US only to see the floodgates open in 60's