I'm the Mormon guy

[Truthspeaker]

I don't think people misunderstand mormons so much as they just see them as an awfully successful cult. Especially when the majority of those who scoff are christians who are not about to hear of some north american testement of jebus by some dude that seems to strike the same chord as the jim jones's and david koresh's of our time. It really doesn't take much to claim divinity and then collect believers. From, again, jonestown to the hale bob suicide nutters it's pretty clear that humans are gullible as hell. Now, that being said, I thought it was a damn shame that the sole factor in Mitt Romney's primary loss was his mormon faith. Lord knows that evangelicals shot themselves in the foot with that one. However, and this is the question I'll toss out here, WHY do think a non-believer of mormonism (christian or otherwise) should differentiate the origin of your church from any other y pluribus unum claim of holy insight? Sure, sure. YOU believe that the bug giy actually found golden disks and had interaction with an angel named moroni but why do you think non-mormons should make a distinction without the evidence of those golden disks? In fact, isn't it true that he was something of a sheister before locking down the dogma angle?

I am impressed at your restraint of the usual mudslinging. You even managed to ask a decent question. I really appreciate that. If I translate correctly you are asking what makes our claim of divinity different from other churches. It's only fair to answer.
The biggest difference is that our founder actually claimed to have gotten the authority face to face from God to have started a church, rather than somebody reading the scriptures, interpreting them, and starting their own church. Every teaching we have is claimed to have come through the prophet, just like Moses who dealt with God directly and told the people what to do. This eliminates interpretations and confusion. No other religion even claims that the heavens are open. In fact they say that these visions don't happen anymore for the most part. I am sure there may be a few, but I don't know of any that have our same claim be it true or false.
A lot of people have claimed Joseph Smith to be a liar without legitimate proof. Much the same way ABikerSailor has called me a liar, without bringing up specifics. That actually fulfills a prophecy that God told to Joseph in which he said, "Thy name shall be had for good and for evil among all nations kindreds toungues and peoples." If there are any people who haven't heard about Joseph Smith in one capacity or another, they will shortly.
What other questions might you have?

 

[Shogun]

You'll have to bare with me because i'm of the mind that Moses was a bit of a charlatan too. I think it is one thing to claim to have spoken with god and a whole other beast to actually prove as much. In regards to mormonism, I think the missing golden disks are somewhat important to produce as evidence of such a conversation. It doesn't take much to CLAIM to have spoken with god. Many, many people have claimed as much. If I wandered back from a solitary venture into the woods and claimed to have spoken with god would you believe me?

 

[Truthspeaker]

You'll have to bare with me because i'm of the mind that Moses was a bit of a charlatan too. I think it is one thing to claim to have spoken with god and a whole other beast to actually prove as much. In regards to mormonism, I think the missing golden disks are somewhat important to produce as evidence of such a conversation. It doesn't take much to CLAIM to have spoken with god. Many, many people have claimed as much. If I wandered back from a solitary venture into the woods and claimed to have spoken with god would you believe me?

I know it is a far fetched sounding story. But people can always be exposed by putting the teachings they say they received to the test. With issues pertaining to God, it has always been about faith until you receive knowledge, and not prove it to me first then I will believe.
The proof of our faith does not lie in holding the gold plates with our hands. The reason we believe it is true is because how the teachings benefit our lives. There are numerous archaelogical evidences in favor of the authenticity of the book but there are also claims against it. There is nothing short of having God come down from heaven and proclaim it to be true, that will convince people of the truth of anything. Even if the plates were to be held in someones hand, it could still be argued away. Just like there are no original copies of the Biblical scrolls. If the teachings help people to live good lives and treat others kindly, then at worst, the Book of Mormon contains helpful guidelines for a person to live by. The way spiritual things are proved is by spiritual means and not physical.
We believe it, some don't. Does it mean we deserve the insults and the lies?

 

[Shogun]

Your answer touches on pascals wager but i've never been one to believe that a beneficial situation necessarily makes truth. Sure, a lot of cultural norms and mores of mormons, and of religion in general, help a person avoid certain negative circumstances; jews and their kosher food, christians with their body is the temple schtick. But, for me, thats not a testament of the truth of deity but rather a statement about lifestyle. If you don't drink alcohol then you have a lower risk of cirrhosis of the liver; not really a validation of dogma so much as a product of life choices. Granted, there are no original copies of the books of the bible but i've never been naieve enough to imagine that a man named jesus matches our understanding of the bible any more than george washington was a bane of cherry trees. Still, and I apply the same test to the jesus junkies, where is the evidence beyond assumed interpretation of "evidence"? Where is the validation beyond taking some dudes word on this conversation with god? I understand your answer but I can't put that much stock in an answer of faith. Again, would you have faith in me if I claimed to have spoken with god and I say he told me to create a new church with slight variations of your denomination? As an agnostic (on my best days, raging atheist on the others) I have no dog in your race. This is why I thought it a head shaking moment when Romney lost because of his religion. I understand that every denomination that has branched off from original traditions and beliefs all go through the same "cult to accepted denomination" process. The Jahovas Witness share the same spotlight that mormonism does with many who would describe themselves as christian. Pentecostalism, the particular flavor I was raised in, faced the same thing at one time and look at them these days. Lutherans. etc. To me, your faith boils down to the same plot as the rest of em.


I won't begrudge you for your mormonism but i'll probably pounce like a roman lion when I perceive a subjugation that is the product of religious belief. Prop 8 and the like. ahh well. enjoy. welcome to the forum and all that jazz. I'm going to flip my maniac with a shotgun switch back on now.

Have a great evening!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Your answer touches on pascals wager but i've never been one to believe that a beneficial situation necessarily makes truth. Sure, a lot of cultural norms and mores of mormons, and of religion in general, help a person avoid certain negative circumstances; jews and their kosher food, christians with their body is the temple schtick. But, for me, thats not a testament of the truth of deity but rather a statement about lifestyle. If you don't drink alcohol then you have a lower risk of cirrhosis of the liver; not really a validation of dogma so much as a product of life choices. Granted, there are no original copies of the books of the bible but i've never been naieve enough to imagine that a man named jesus matches our understanding of the bible any more than george washington was a bane of cherry trees. Still, and I apply the same test to the jesus junkies, where is the evidence beyond assumed interpretation of "evidence"? Where is the validation beyond taking some dudes word on this conversation with god? I understand your answer but I can't put that much stock in an answer of faith. Again, would you have faith in me if I claimed to have spoken with god and I say he told me to create a new church with slight variations of your denomination? As an agnostic (on my best days, raging atheist on the others) I have no dog in your race. This is why I thought it a head shaking moment when Romney lost because of his religion. I understand that every denomination that has branched off from original traditions and beliefs all go through the same "cult to accepted denomination" process. The Jahovas Witness share the same spotlight that mormonism does with many who would describe themselves as christian. Pentecostalism, the particular flavor I was raised in, faced the same thing at one time and look at them these days. Lutherans. etc. To me, your faith boils down to the same plot as the rest of em.


I won't begrudge you for your mormonism but i'll probably pounce like a roman lion when I perceive a subjugation that is the product of religious belief. Prop 8 and the like. ahh well. enjoy. welcome to the forum and all that jazz. I'm going to flip my maniac with a shotgun switch back on now.

Have a great evening!

I figure myself to be an intellectual as well. I have thought these things through as well. I'll tell you that if this religion wasn't around, I wouldn't join any of them which is the same statement Joseph Smith made when he was confused about religion. He wasn't commanded to build a church until many years later. He did what I and most people would do. Not join any church. the kid was 14 years old.
I have seen lots of little physical evidences here and there, like the discovery of Ishmaels grave in Yemen, spoken of in the Book of Mormon, the discovery of ores and big game on the Arabian peninsula, which no one in the entire US knew about until the 20th century. Joseph smith couldn't have known any of those things with his 2nd grade education. His scribe had a 9th grade education and couldn't spell for beans. How was he going to know about customs and traditions of Bedouin Arabs. How was he going to know about the historical times and political atmosphere of Jerusalem in 600BC as described in the recently found Lachish letters in the destroyed fortress of Lachish.
These things are strong evidences of the Book's authenticity, but all can somehow be argued against. Evidence is not proof and for god to give proof all the time wouldn't teach his children anything about faith and thus they couldn't grow. I am not trying to convert anybody here, but only to help people understand where we are coming from and I appreciate your civility of late. You don't have to go back into maniac mode.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I know it is a far fetched sounding story. But people can always be exposed by putting the teachings they say they received to the test. With issues pertaining to God, it has always been about faith until you receive knowledge, and not prove it to me first then I will believe.
The proof of our faith does not lie in holding the gold plates with our hands. The reason we believe it is true is because how the teachings benefit our lives. There are numerous archaelogical evidences in favor of the authenticity of the book but there are also claims against it. There is nothing short of having God come down from heaven and proclaim it to be true, that will convince people of the truth of anything. Even if the plates were to be held in someones hand, it could still be argued away. Just like there are no original copies of the Biblical scrolls. If the teachings help people to live good lives and treat others kindly, then at worst, the Book of Mormon contains helpful guidelines for a person to live by. The way spiritual things are proved is by spiritual means and not physical.
We believe it, some don't. Does it mean we deserve the insults and the lies?

There are numerous archaelogical evidences in favor of the authenticity of the book...

could you maybe list these evidences?

 

[catzmeow]

I'd settle for being able to see the golden plates, or maybe the urim and thummim.

 

[no1tovote4]

Have you been a Mormon long enough to have heard about the "Burning Salamander" scandal?

There was a guy, a Mormon dude, who falsified a bunch of "old" documents that had some seriously controversial "statements" from Joseph Smith.

I remember hearing about it in the pentecostal Christian church that I grew up in, they never talked about it when the documents were found out to be fraudulent, I'll bet there are still people in that church that think that Moroni was a amphibian...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I'd settle for being able to see the golden plates, or maybe the urim and thummim.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious on a few levels. ignorance is indeed bliss for some.




what am I doin' now? listening to:
(by the MTC)

here are the lyrics: www.carols.org.uk

O come, O come, Emmanuel
And ransom captive Israel
That mourns in lonely exile here
Until the Son of God appear
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.

O come, Thou Rod of Jesse, free
Thine own from Satan's tyranny
From depths of Hell Thy people save
And give them victory o'er the grave
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.

O come, Thou Day-Spring, come and cheer
Our spirits by Thine advent here
Disperse the gloomy clouds of night
And death's dark shadows put to flight.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.

O come, Thou Key of David, come,
And open wide our heavenly home;
Make safe the way that leads on high,
And close the path to misery.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.

O come, O come, Thou Lord of might,
Who to Thy tribes, on Sinai's height,
In ancient times did'st give the Law,
In cloud, and majesty and awe.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.

 

[Gunny]

Actually, you are the "other", newbie Mormon guy. RetiredGySgt is also Mormon.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

pardon. even funnier...

the mormon tab choir song is "the little drummer boy"

the tune of emmanuel is by Robert Shaw and the Robert Shaw Chamber Singers

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Actually, you are the "other", newbie Mormon guy. RetiredGySgt is also Mormon.

some of my friends are mormons. their beliefs are secondary to their character as far as I am concerned, but their beliefs are indeed strange to me as are the beliefs of almost all people.

 

[Gunny]

some of my friends are mormons. their beliefs are secondary to their character as far as I am concerned, but their beliefs are indeed strange to me as are the beliefs of almost all people.

I've had friends who were Mormons in the past. Never really discussed religion with them. They seemed like normal people to me.

 

[Truthspeaker]

could you maybe list these evidences?

Here is a sample of a few.
Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility

 

[Truthspeaker]

Character is far more important than religion.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I've had friends who were Mormons in the past. Never really discussed religion with them. They seemed like normal people to me.

normal? yes. but superstitious as other religionists.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Character is far more important than religion.

truer words were never spoken

 

[Truthspeaker]

That's why I chose my name