I'm here and I don't give a dam

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself' started by publicprotector, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. Bootneck
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    Bootneck Diamond Member

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    No worries pal. You're an OK geezer.

    BTW that 'hang dog' look is as a result of those mistresses they have stashed away.

    :cool:
     
  2. probus
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    probus Member

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    "sigh"-- i guess every board has their own little pea brained projects who just glance at a headline or two and never internalize anything to try to understand what's going on in the real world-- i think this guy bfng has spent too much time trying to gain points with one of his professors-- ok, i'll bite... i can find quotes on the 'Net to show u how wrong u are by multiple sources-- here are two-- one of them from Clinton himself-- what now bright-boy?-- can u give us any arguements of ur own without throwing out "quotes" from suspect sources?-- roll over and ask ur professor... we'll wait-- Regards, probus

    Clinton Let Bin Laden Slip Away and Sudan offered up the terrorist and data on his network. The then-president and his advisors didn't respond.

















    By MANSOOR IJAZ
    President Clinton and his national security team ignored several opportunities to capture Osama bin Laden and his terrorist associates, including one as late as last year.

    I know because I negotiated more than one of the opportunities.

    From 1996 to 1998, I opened unofficial channels between Sudan and the Clinton administration. I met with officials in both countries, including Clinton, U.S. National Security Advisor Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger and Sudan's president and intelligence chief. President Omar Hassan Ahmed Bashir, who wanted terrorism sanctions against Sudan lifted, offered the arrest and extradition of Bin Laden and detailed intelligence data about the global networks constructed by Egypt's Islamic Jihad, Iran's Hezbollah and the Palestinian Hamas.

    Among those in the networks were the two hijackers who piloted commercial airliners into the World Trade Center.

    The silence of the Clinton administration in responding to these offers was deafening.

    As an American Muslim and a political supporter of Clinton, I feel now, as I argued with Clinton and Berger then, that their counter-terrorism policies fueled the rise of Bin Laden from an ordinary man to a Hydra-like monster.

    Realizing the growing problem with Bin Laden, Bashir sent key intelligence officials to the U.S. in February 1996.

    The Sudanese offered to arrest Bin Laden and extradite him to Saudi Arabia or, barring that, to "baby-sit" him--monitoring all his activities and associates.

    But Saudi officials didn't want their home-grown terrorist back where he might plot to overthrow them.

    In May 1996, the Sudanese capitulated to U.S. pressure and asked Bin Laden to leave, despite their feeling that he could be monitored better in Sudan than elsewhere.

    Bin Laden left for Afghanistan, taking with him Ayman Zawahiri, considered by the U.S. to be the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks; Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, who traveled frequently to Germany to obtain electronic equipment for Al Qaeda; Wadih El-Hage, Bin Laden's personal secretary and roving emissary, now serving a life sentence in the U.S. for his role in the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya; and Fazul Abdullah Mohammed and Saif Adel, also accused of carrying out the embassy attacks.

    Some of these men are now among the FBI's 22 most-wanted terrorists.

    The two men who allegedly piloted the planes into the twin towers, Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi, prayed in the same Hamburg mosque as did Salim and Mamoun Darkazanli, a Syrian trader who managed Salim's bank accounts and whose assets are frozen.

    Important data on each had been compiled by the Sudanese.

    But U.S. authorities repeatedly turned the data away, first in February 1996; then again that August, when at my suggestion Sudan's religious ideologue, Hassan Turabi, wrote directly to Clinton; then again in April 1997, when I persuaded Bashir to invite the FBI to come to Sudan and view the data; and finally in February 1998, when Sudan's intelligence chief, Gutbi al-Mahdi, wrote directly to the FBI.

    Gutbi had shown me some of Sudan's data during a three-hour meeting in Khartoum in October 1996. When I returned to Washington, I told Berger and his specialist for East Africa, Susan Rice, about the data available. They said they'd get back to me. They never did. Neither did they respond when Bashir made the offer directly. I believe they never had any intention to engage Muslim countries--ally or not. Radical Islam, for the administration, was a convenient national security threat.

    And that was not the end of it. In July 2000--three months before the deadly attack on the destroyer Cole in Yemen--I brought the White House another plausible offer to deal with Bin Laden, by then known to be involved in the embassy bombings. A senior counter-terrorism official from one of the United States' closest Arab allies--an ally whose name I am not free to divulge--approached me with the proposal after telling me he was fed up with the antics and arrogance of U.S. counter-terrorism officials.

    The offer, which would have brought Bin Laden to the Arab country as the first step of an extradition process that would eventually deliver him to the U.S., required only that Clinton make a state visit there to personally request Bin Laden's extradition. But senior Clinton officials sabotaged the offer, letting it get caught up in internal politics within the ruling family--Clintonian diplomacy at its best.

    Clinton's failure to grasp the opportunity to unravel increasingly organized extremists, coupled with Berger's assessments of their potential to directly threaten the U.S., represents one of the most serious foreign policy failures in American history.

    *

    Mansoor Ijaz, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, is chairman of a New York-based investment company.

    From the NewsMax.com Staff
    For the story behind the story...


    Sunday, Sept. 10, 2006 6:13 p.m. EDT
    On Tape, Clinton Admits Passing Up bin Laden Capture; Lewinsky Played Role






    Bill Clinton denies it now, but he once admitted he passed up an opportunity to extradite Osama bin Laden.

    And NewsMax has the former President making the claim on audiotape. [You can listen to the tape yourself] -- Click Here

    Clinton's comments and his actions relating to American efforts to capture bin Laden have taken on renewed interest because of claims made in a new ABC movie, the "Path to 9/11," that suggests Clinton dropped the ball during his presidency. Clinton has also angrily denied claims the Monica Lewinsky scandal drew his attention away from dealing with national security matters like capturing bin Laden.


    Story Continues Below


    During a February 2002 speech, Clinton explained that he turned down an offer from Sudan for bin Laden's extradition to the U.S., saying, "At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him."

    But that wasn't exactly true. By 1996, the 9/11 mastermind had already been named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing by prosecutors in New York.

    9/11 Commissioner former Sen. Bob Kerrey said that Clinton told the Commission during his private interview that reports of his comments to the LIA were based on "a misquote."


    During his interview with the 9/11 Commission, Clinton was accompanied by longtime aide and former White House counsel Bruce Lindsey, along with former national security advisor Sandy Berger, who insisted in sworn testimony before Congress in Sept. 2002 that there was never any offer from Sudanese officials to turn over bin Laden to the U.S.

    But other evidence suggests the Clinton administration did not take advantage of offers to get bin Laden -- and that the Monica Lewinsky scandal was exploding during this time period.

    At least two offers from the government of Sudan to arrest Osama bin Laden and turn him over to the U.S. were rebuffed by the Clinton administration in February and March of 1996, a period of time when the former president's attention was distracted by his intensifying relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

    One of the offers took place during a secret meeting in Washington, the same day Clinton was meeting with Lewinsky in the White House just miles away.

    On Feb. 6, 1996, then-U.S. Ambassador to the Sudan Tim Carney met with Sudanese Foreign Minister Ali Osman Mohammed Taha at Taha's home in the capital city of Khartoum. The meeting took place just a half mile from bin Laden's residence at the time, according to Richard Miniter's book "Losing bin Laden."

    During the meeting, Carney reminded the Sudanese official that Washington was increasingly nervous about the presence of bin Laden in Sudan, reports Miniter.

    Foreign Minister Taha countered by saying that Sudan was very concerned about its poor relationship with the U.S.

    Then came the bombshell offer:

    "If you want bin Laden, we will give you bin Laden," Foreign Minister Taha told Ambassador Carney.

    Still, with the extraordinarily fortuitous offer on the table, back in Washington President Clinton had other things on his mind.

    A timeline of events chronicled in the Starr Report shows that during the period of late January through March 1996, Mr. Clinton's relationship with Monica Lewinsky was then at its most intense.

    On Feb. 4, 1996, for instance - two days before Ambassador Carney's key meeting with the Sudanese Foreign Minister, the president was focused not on Osama bin Laden, but instead on the 23-year-old White House intern.

    Their rendezvous that day included a sexual encounter followed by a leisurely chat between Clinton and Lewinsky, as the two "sat and talked [afterward] for about 45 minutes," according to the Starr Report.

    Later in the afternoon that same day, as Sudanese officials weighed their decision to offer bin Laden to the U.S., Clinton found time to call Lewinsky "[to say] he had enjoyed their time together." If there were any calls from Clinton to the State Department or Khartoum that day, the records have yet to surface in published reports.

    The Feb. 4 encounter with Lewinsky followed a period of intense contact detailed in the Starr report in interviews with the former White House intern, including a sexual encounter on Jan. 6, 1996, several sessions of phone sex during the week of Jan. 14 - 21, and another sexual encounter on Jan. 21.

    Sudan's offer to the U.S. for bin Laden's extradition remained on the table for at least a month, and was reiterated by Sudanese officials who traveled to Washington as late as March 10, 1996.

    On March 3, Sudan's Minister of State for Defense Elfatih Erwa met secretly with Ambassador Carney, another State Department official and the CIA's Africa bureau Director of Operations at an Arlington, Va., hotel, according to Miniter's book.

    Erwa was handed a list of issues the U.S. wanted taken care of if relations were to improve. The list included a demand for information on bin Laden's terrorist network inside Sudan.

    Erwa replied that he would have to consult with Sudan's President Omar Hassan al-Bashir about the list. When he returned for a March 10, 1996 meeting with the CIA's Africa bureau chief, "Erwa would be empowered to make an extraordinary offer," writes Miniter.

    On instructions from its president, the government of Sudan agreed to arrest bin Laden and hand him over to U.S law enforcement at a time and place of the Clinton administration's choosing. "Where should we send him?" Erwa asked the CIA representative.

    In his 2002 speech President Clinton has acknowledged being fully briefed on the Sudanese efforts to turn over the 9/11 mastermind, admitting that he made the final decision to turn the offer down.

    As chronicled in the Starr report, however, Clinton's relationship with Lewinsky proved to be a growing distraction around this time.

    Two weeks before the secret meeting between Erwa, Carney and the CIA bureau chief, the president summoned Lewinsky to the White House to inform her that he "no longer felt right" about their relationship and it would have to be suspended until after the election.

    Lewinsky explained, however, that Clinton's decision to put their relationship on hold did little to change its basic character, telling Starr's investigators, "There'd continue to be this flirtation when we'd see each other."

    The Starr report noted, "In late February or March [1996], the president telephoned her at home and said he was disappointed that, because she had already left the White House for the evening, they could not get together."

    The call, Lewinsky said, "sort of implied to me that he was interested in starting up again."

    On March 10, 1996, as Sudanese Defense Minister Erwa was making his extraordinary offer for bin Laden's arrest to the CIA's Africa bureau chief, Clinton met with Lewinsky in the White House.

    The Starr report:

    "On March 10, 1996, Ms. Lewinsky took a visiting friend, Natalie Ungvari, to the White House. They bumped into the president, who said when Ms. Lewinsky introduced them, 'You must be her friend from California.' Ms. Ungvari was 'shocked' that the president knew where she was from."

    Though there was no physical contact that day, three weeks later, on March 31, 1996, Clinton resumed his sexual relationship with Lewinsky.

    It was around this time, the president later admitted, that he was involved in delicate negotiations to try to persuade Riyadh to take bin Laden, after refusing to accept his extradition to the U.S.

    "I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have," Clinton admitted in the 2002 speech. "But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan."

    On April 7, 1996, Monica Lewinsky was transferred to the Pentagon. Around the same time, the administration's hunt for bin Laden finally seemed to begin in earnest. Just weeks after Clinton spurned Sudan's bin Laden offer, for instance, the CIA created a separate operational unit dedicated to tracking down bin Laden in Sudan.

    But it happened too late to capture the 9/11 mastermind. On May 18, 1996, bin Laden boarded a chartered plane in Khartoum with his wives, children, some 150 al-Qaida jihadists and a cache of arms - and flew off to Jalalabad, Afghanistan.


    TRANSCRIPT: Ex-President Clinton's Remarks on Osama bin Laden Delivered to the Long Island Association's Annual Luncheon Crest Hollow Country Club, Woodbury, NY Feb. 15, 2002

    To hear NewsMax.com's exclusive audio recording of ex-President Clinton explaining why he turned the Sudanese offer down, Click Here.

    Question from LIA President Matthew Crosson:

    CROSSON: In hindsight, would you have handled the issue of terrorism, and al-Qaeda specifically, in a different way during your administration?

    CLINTON: Well, it's interesting now, you know, that I would be asked that question because, at the time, a lot of people thought I was too obsessed with Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

    And when I bombed his training camp and tried to kill him and his high command in 1998 after the African embassy bombings, some people criticized me for doing it. We just barely missed him by a couple of hours.

    I think whoever told us he was going to be there told somebody who told him that our missiles might be there. I think we were ratted out.

    We also bombed a chemical facility in Sudan where we were criticized, even in this country, for overreaching. But in the trial in New York City of the al-Qaeda people who bombed the African embassy, they testified in the trial that the Sudanese facility was, in fact, a part of their attempt to stockpile chemical weapons.

    So we tried to be quite aggressive with them. We got - uh - well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan.

    And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again.

    They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America.

    So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan.

    We then put a lot of sanctions on the Afghan government and - but they inter-married, Mullah Omar and bin Laden. So that essentially the Taliban didn't care what we did to them.

    Now, if you look back - in the hindsight of history, everybody's got 20/20 vision - the real issue is should we have attacked the al-Qaeda network in 1999 or in 2000 in Afghanistan.

    Here's the problem. Before September 11 we would have had no support for it - no allied support and no basing rights. So we actually trained to do this. I actually trained people to do this. We trained people.

    But in order to do it, we would have had to take them in on attack helicopters 900 miles from the nearest boat - maybe illegally violating the airspace of people if they wouldn't give us approval. And we would have had to do a refueling stop.

    And we would have had to make the decision in advance that's the reverse of what President Bush made - and I agreed with what he did. They basically decided - this may be frustrating to you now that we don't have bin Laden. But the president had to decide after Sept. 11, which am I going to do first? Just go after bin Laden or get rid of the Taliban?

    He decided to get rid of the Taliban. I personally agree with that decision, even though it may or may not have delayed the capture of bin Laden. Why?

    Because, first of all the Taliban was the most reactionary government on earth and there was an inherent value in getting rid of them.

    Secondly, they supported terrorism and we'd send a good signal to governments that if you support terrorism and they attack us in America, we will hold you responsible.

    Thirdly, it enabled our soldiers and Marines and others to operate more safely in-country as they look for bin Laden and the other senior leadership, because if we'd have had to have gone in there to just sort of clean out one area, try to establish a base camp and operate.

    So for all those reasons the military recommended against it. There was a high probability that it wouldn't succeed.

    Now I had one other option. I could have bombed or sent more missiles in. As far as we knew he never went back to his training camp. So the only place bin Laden ever went that we knew was occasionally he went to Khandahar where he always spent the night in a compound that had 200 women and children.

    So I could have, on any given night, ordered an attack that I knew would kill 200 women and children that had less than a 50 percent chance of getting him.

    Now, after he murdered 3,100 of our people and others who came to our country seeking their livelihood you may say, "Well, Mr. President, you should have killed those 200 women and children."

    But at the time we didn't think he had the capacity to do that. And no one thought that I should do that. Although I take full responsibility for it. You need to know that those are the two options I had. And there was less than a 50/50 chance that the intelligence was right that on this particular night he was in Afghanistan.

    Now, we did do a lot of things. We tried to get the Pakistanis to go get him. They could have done it and they wouldn't. They changed governments at the time from Mr. Sharif to President Musharraf. And we tried to get others to do it. We had a standing contract between the CIA and some groups in Afghanistan authorizing them and paying them if they should be successful in arresting and/or killing him.

    So I tried hard to - I always thought this guy was a big problem. And apparently the options I had were the options that the President and Vice President Cheney and Secretary Powell and all the people that were involved in the Gulf War thought that they had, too, during the first eight months that they were there - until Sept. 11 changed everything.

    But I did the best I could with it and I do not believe, based on what options were available to me, that I could have done much more than I did. Obviously, I wish I'd been successful. I tried a lot of different ways to get bin Laden 'cause I always thought he was a very dangerous man. He's smart, he's bold and committed.

    But I think it's very important that the Bush administration do what they're doing to keep the soldiers over there to keep chasing him. But I know - like I said - I know it might be frustrating to you. But it's still better for bin Laden to worry every day more about whether he's going to see the sun come up in the morning than whether he's going to drop a bomb, another bomb somewhere in the U.S. or in Europe or on some other innocent civilians. (END OF TRANSCRIPT)
     
  3. probus
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    probus Member

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    thanks boot-- what the hell is up with that Camilla gal though?-- "bow frikkin' wow"-- at least the Prince of Windsor's kids know how to wake up next to something that isn't "coyote ugly"-- it's an American joke, unsure if u Brits have heard of it: guy wakes up in the morning after a bender and finds a truly monsterous looking woman, who looked great the night before, laying dead asleep across his arm-- worrying that he might wake her, he quietly gnaws his arm off to get away-- heh,heh-- have a cuppa on me!-- Regards, probus
     
  4. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    And no doubt you can do mind melds and show us the Vulcan grip, too, right?

    You really do think you are a rational thinker, don't you? That's amusing.

    Look at the next thing you just wrote immediately after telling US not to be emotional:

    You spew venom every post while telling the rest of us not to be emotional

    Physician, heal thyself.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  5. Bfgrn
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    Bfgrn Gold Member

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    sigh... it seems you just can't absorb the meaning of: "I am impressed with your 20/20 hindsight."

    Mansoor Ijaz
    In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon Ijaz and others accused the Clinton administration of having bungled an opportunity to catch bin Laden. The accusations have been rejected by Clinton administration officials including Sandy Berger and Susan Rice.

    The following year, others, such as the conservative website NewsMax and Fox News's Sean Hannity, went further than Ijaz and claimed that Sudan had offered to extradite bin Laden direct to the United States. The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also known as the 9/11 Commission), stated that "former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States. Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim."
    Sourcewatch

    NOW...if Billy boy is the buffoon oblivious to bin Laden's danger and Bush is the wise one, WHY did Bush IGNORE numerous warnings of an imminent attack on the US, EVEN one that NAMED bin Laden in a Presidential Daily Briefing?


    "I always believed as a speechwriter that if you could persuade the president to commit himself to certain words, he would feel himself committed to the ideas that underlay those words. And the big shock to me has been that although the president said the words, he just did not absorb the ideas. And that is the root of, maybe, everything."
    David Frum - Speechwriter for George W. Bush
     
  6. probus
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    probus Member

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    Sandy Berger and Susan Rice?!-- was that the Sandy Berger who was caught stuffing top secret documents from the Clinton Admin. down his pants and socks that he stole at the request of Hillary and Bill?-- was that the Susan Rice who is still pissed that she risked getting caught by Michelle sneaking Barry those cigarettes all those years and wasn't rewarded with NSA or Sec'y of State and was relegated to a nothing position like the United frikkin' Nations?-- if that's the best u can do, i'll send u a signed copy of Susan Rices' new expose: "How I fed Barry's Nicotine Habit or Pardon me Michelle but ur Klingon bat'leth is in my Neck"-- anyway, i guess Clinton's own words don't matter a wit when it comes to the All-Seeing and All-Knowing 9/11 Commission-- enlighten me but weren't they kinda like that Commission that told President Bush that we ought to 'cut and run' from Iraq?-- hindsight is 20/20 especially from where i'm sitting-- Regards, probus
     
  7. Bfgrn
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    Bfgrn Gold Member

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    Now that you've reduced yourself to whining and name calling, maybe you can answer this:

    WHY did Bush IGNORE numerous warnings of an imminent attack on the US, EVEN one that NAMED bin Laden in a Presidential Daily Briefing?
     
  8. probus
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    probus Member

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    if the American president went after every fruit-cake that was mentioned to him in a Daily Briefing he'd be playing "wack-a-mole" that's why-- besides, if Brother Bill didn't think bin Laden was worth more than lobbing a couple of cruise missles at a training camp or two, AFTER 8 YEARS IN OFFICE, to distract us from the Lewinsky sploog scandal of the time, even after it was shown he was behind our African Embassy bombings, i don't see why Bush who was within his FIRST 8 MONTHS IN OFFICE should have paid him the slightest heed-- whining?-- do u deny what Berger did?-- and don't u think Susan may be just a tad upset?-- Regards, probus
     
  9. Bfgrn
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    Bfgrn Gold Member

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    Oh, I didn't realize it was THAT simple... Clinton is guilty and Bush is innocent and he even has an excuse from his mother...

    WHY didn't you just say so???
     
  10. probus
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    probus Member

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    didn't expect u'd have the cujones to answer my questions-- let's see: 8 years versus 8 months-- hmmmm-- that's a tough one-- bombing the US embassies in Africa in '98 and having years to get the guy versus having 8 months to anticipate the (up until that time in history) unthinkable-- hmmmm-- gimme a minute to check google again and i'll get back to u-- pack some more peat moss into ur ears plant-man, u'r starting to wilt-- Regards, probus
     

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