If You're Not A Liberal, SHUT THE HELL UP!

[Lonestar_logic]

Hey....I Googled the guy. I can't find any verifiable resouces that place him into the "anti-American communist, racist" that you seem to think he is. And I'm sorry, but based on some of your past BS posts, I refuse to believe he is just because YOU SAID SO. Give me something to go on, that does NOT come from some Right Wing website and we'll talk.

Really? I googled and found this

Van Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And what is STORM?

Well it's

STORM initially included anarchists, communists and revolutionary nationalists, but after some internal, personal struggles the anarchists left, and STORM become more communist-oriented

Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps google is too complicated for you.

You got your info from the same place I did. Did you find anything in Wikipedia to substantiate Jester's claims that Jones was a Communist and/or a racist? I sure didn't.

Then you're stupid. Jones was a member of STORM, during the 1990’s Jones co-founded the group STORM (Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement). STORM grew out of a group called RAW (Roots Against War) a radical black organization that was located in the San Francisco bay area.

 

[Zoom-boing]

And another Van Jones discussion bites the dust when proof is provided.

 

[Modbert]

And another Van Jones discussion bites the dust when proof is provided.

As the person before you quoted from wikipedia:

Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The internal crisis had reduced the group to just six members. STORM considered Mao Zedong as their ideological leader and as an atheist organization expressed deep dislike of religion. STORM was also different than its predecessor group RAW because it had some white members, whereas RAW had been comprised only of people of color; STORM also held a stated commitment to women in leadership. While STORM had some white members, its membership was always more than 60 percent women and 75 percent people of color. Most of STORM's membership had never previously been in other revolutionary organizations.

So I guess one billion people across the ocean are just radical nutjobs too?

What exactly did they do? I don't see any blowing up of any buildings or anything of the sort. I see peaceful protesting. Is there something wrong with that?

 

[Zoom-boing]

And another Van Jones discussion bites the dust when proof is provided.

As the person before you quoted from wikipedia:

Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The internal crisis had reduced the group to just six members. STORM considered Mao Zedong as their ideological leader and as an atheist organization expressed deep dislike of religion. STORM was also different than its predecessor group RAW because it had some white members, whereas RAW had been comprised only of people of color; STORM also held a stated commitment to women in leadership. While STORM had some white members, its membership was always more than 60 percent women and 75 percent people of color. Most of STORM's membership had never previously been in other revolutionary organizations.

So I guess one billion people across the ocean are just radical nutjobs too?

What exactly did they do? I don't see any blowing up of any buildings or anything of the sort. I see peaceful protesting. Is there something wrong with that?

Go read some more on Van Jones, Bob.

Go to page 4 and check out Van Jones, in his own words and his past.

 

[Modbert]

Go read some more on Van Jones, Bob.

Go to page 4 and check out Van Jones, in his own words and his past.

I noticed you dodged my question. So Zoom, are everyone who look at Mao as their leader in China nutjobs, YES OR NO?

I looked at the first video, I noticed it was Glenn Beck, I turned it off right after that. Get someone who isn't a hypocrite and then get back to me on that one.

As for the article itself:

I was a rowdy nationalist on April 28th [1992], and then the verdicts came down on April 29th. By August, I was a communist. (...)

Keyword: WAS

It's not like he's hiding it or anything. He's not hiding his past.

In 2008, he was the Time Magazine Environmental Hero. I know you're smarter than this Zoom. Beck obviously went after Van Jones because of Color of Change. Beck did not give a fuck about Bush's czars, as I previously pointed out to you.

As for the video, give me the full context. 30 second soundbytes that don't cover the entire answer it seems or even the question is troubling.

 

[lawbuff]

That will be the next thing they do after they take our guns away...

Although the Heller case only applied to DC, the "practical effect" is, if a state rules that it is not a private right (non militia) under the 2nd AM to possess a weapon for protective purposes, the SC is surely to rule against that state if appealed and granted, thus entirely incorporating the 2nd as an individual right.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

And another Van Jones discussion bites the dust when proof is provided.

As the person before you quoted from wikipedia:

Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The internal crisis had reduced the group to just six members. STORM considered Mao Zedong as their ideological leader and as an atheist organization expressed deep dislike of religion. STORM was also different than its predecessor group RAW because it had some white members, whereas RAW had been comprised only of people of color; STORM also held a stated commitment to women in leadership. While STORM had some white members, its membership was always more than 60 percent women and 75 percent people of color. Most of STORM's membership had never previously been in other revolutionary organizations.

So I guess one billion people across the ocean are just radical nutjobs too?

What exactly did they do? I don't see any blowing up of any buildings or anything of the sort. I see peaceful protesting. Is there something wrong with that?

Mao was a communist was he not? The billion people you're referring to didn't have much choice, now did they? Besides the citizens of China are irrelevant to the discussion, Mao however is relevant.

No he may not have blownup any buildings but he is responsible for the following:

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:

1. Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
2. Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
3. Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
4. Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
5. Labor Camps: 20M
6. Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
7. TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M

Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)

1. Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
2. Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
3. Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
4. Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
5. Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths

Brzezinski:

1. Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
2. Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
3. TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao

Daniel Chirot:

1. Land reform, 1949-56
2. According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
3. According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
4. Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
5. Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million

Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)

1. Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
2. Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
3. Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
4. Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
5. Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
6. TOTAL under Mao: 70M

Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
Eckhardt:

1. Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
2. Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000

Gilbert:

1. 1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.

Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):

1. They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
2. Cited by G & P:
3. Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
4. The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
5. A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
6. (NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)

Guinness Book of World Records:

1. Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
2. On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
3. In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
4. The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.

Harff and Gurr:

1. KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
2. Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000

John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:

1. Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
2. Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
3. Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France

Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:

1. Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
2. Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
3. Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.

R. J. Rummel:
Estimate:

1. Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
2. The principle episodes being...
3. All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
4. incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
5. Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
6. Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
7. Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
8. War: 3,399,000
9. Famine: 34,500,000
10. Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
11. TOTAL: 72,260,000

Cited in Rummel:

1. Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
2. World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
3. Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
4. Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
5. Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
6. Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To

Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):

1. 1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
2. Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
3. 2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
4. Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
5. Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
6. Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
7. Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
8. Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
9. Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
10. Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
11. TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
12. TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M

July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)

1. Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
2. Cong Jin: 40 million
3. Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.

Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:

1. Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000

died (citing Harry Wu)
WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:

1. Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
2. Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
3. Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
4. Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
5. Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
6. This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.

Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
"If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
"Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)

 

[elvis]

I question this BS source.

Time to put your toys away now and get ready for your nap.

 

[Immanuel]

That will be the next thing they do after they take our guns away...

I'm not so sure that this won't come first. It will be easier to take our guns away, if we can't communicate our dissent of their actions.

Immie