If your life is bad, who is most at fault: YOU, a corporation, the government?

[Contumacious]

So I must ask....if you are in the 99% AND you are pissed about it, who is more at fault for your circumstance?

- Yourself?
- A corporation?
- The government?
- A rich guy?
.

Since 1913 the government has been regulating the economy, Capitalism was abandoned in favor of fascism.

So US government interventionism has adversely affected individuals and corporations.

.

 

[rdean]

Define "bad".

 

[bucs90]

Protesting in order to change policy in order to improve your own life is a horribly inefficient way to improve one's life. But protesters aren't trying to change things just for themselves, they're trying to change things for everyone (though I'm not exactly sure what change they're trying to make).

Protesters could do more to help themselves if they worked for minimum wage instead of protesting. But they could do the same working for minimum wage instead of standing in line at a voting booth. They aren't protesting to line their own pockets, they're trying to change society.

Wow. I strongly disagree. They are demanding ridiculous things.

The society they live in allows them to become billionaires if they should take that path and succeed. It also allows them to live happy, middle class lives.

However, it requires responsible choices, like school, not committing crime, sexual responsibility, debt control, and the humble willingness to work low level jobs and work one's way up.

They seem unwilling to do one or more of the above.

With what part do you disagree? My two main points were that the protesters were largely trying to change society/public policy and that they would largely find working minimum wage jobs more personally enriching.

It's possible I don't understand the demands of OWS. Do you have a good source for them? The movement doesn't seem to have a centralized structure, so I'm not sure how to get a read on the movement as a whole. I'd also love to see some data backing up your suggestion that they are largely uneducated, criminal, sexually and fiscally irresponsible and lazy.

I seriously doubt the OWS folks would take a minimum wage job with the intent of "personal enrichment". I bet most refuse to work one. Dominoes Pizza and Target are known to be ALWAYS hiring, and currently are, and can't find anyone to do the jobs.

Honestly, I don't have a list. There are many out there, but in fairness, who knows what is legit and isn't.

I don't think they are all like the traits. I just said those traits will hamper success. I bet many of the OWS have college degrees. Probably in a useless topic like Diversity Studies, or Music, or anything non-science related.

But I'd also bet many can't get a good job due to 1 or more of those things listed.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Wow. I strongly disagree. They are demanding ridiculous things.

The society they live in allows them to become billionaires if they should take that path and succeed. It also allows them to live happy, middle class lives.

However, it requires responsible choices, like school, not committing crime, sexual responsibility, debt control, and the humble willingness to work low level jobs and work one's way up.

They seem unwilling to do one or more of the above.

You are wrong. Have you ever thought of that? That you could be wrong about what it is that prevents many from reaching middle class bliss?

Ok. Then WHAT stops someone from becoming middle class?

Other than no education, a rap sheet, lots of kids to feed, big time debt or laziness?

Other than self inflicted issues, what stops a person?

*sigh*...............again?

I'm bored of you....so this will be quick.

Stagnant wages.
Banks becoming gambling houses.
Manufacturing exodus.
Skyrocketing cost of living.

That should do it.

 

[ClosedCaption]

I'm in the "99%" I suppose. Earn about 60K a year. Very modest. Own a home and a car. Have no debt except 30K more on my home. I graduated high school and college. Avoided having kids out of wedlock. Never committed any felonies. Worked a lot of crappy, low pay jobs after college and kept working and applying, and eventually got better jobs. I workout and stay fit. I'm not in the richest 1%. Yet....I'm happy. I'm fed. I'm healthy. I have no gripes. No ill will towards any rich person or corporation.

So I must ask....if you are in the 99% AND you are pissed about it, who is more at fault for your circumstance?

- Yourself?
- A corporation?
- The government?
- A rich guy?
.

I think you are asking the question the wrong way.

I look at myself. I've done everything right. I served my country in the military, I used that to pay for college. I worked very hard in a number of jobs, a few of which went south because managers made idiotic decisions, not because I personally did anything wrong.

Yet I'm here, making only 80% of what I was making five years ago. I should be angry, and I am angry.

But I'm as angry at the Democrats as Republicans, because I think both parties have sold out to the people on Wall Street who created this mess.

In 2007, I could have written your opening paragraph. Everything seemed on top of the world then. Then I had medical bills. And oddly enough, I worked for a company that tends to fire people if they run up medical bills.

I never give up, and I never surrender, but I think I'm struggling a lot harder, and the people who caused this mess aren't.

The OWS has a point. the wealth has shifted, and nothing good has come of it. The rich buy politicians, who are oblivious to the problems of the people who elected them. Given how much money that both Obama and Romney are raising, I doubt that's going to change this election, they've both been bought.

^^ This

And the SCOTUS decision where corps can donate unlimited funds will do one of two things:

1. Take money and influence out of politics or
2. Add more money and influence into politics

You decide. When you do ask yourself, will this help or hurt the average citizen

 

[bucs90]

That there are bad lives at all, proves how flawed the system is. Blaming a single part of the system, won't solve anything. The entire system is stuffed, and that includes you, whether you are in the '1%' or the '99%'.

So you think it is possible to eliminate all "bad" lives, and not kill them, but I mean create a society that is void of pain, poverty, hunger, disease, etc, all together?

Where every person on Earth lives a healthy life, plenty of food, no hard labor, no health struggles?

I believe that place can exist. But as a Christian, I know it isn't on Earth, and never will be.

 

[bucs90]

You are wrong. Have you ever thought of that? That you could be wrong about what it is that prevents many from reaching middle class bliss?

Ok. Then WHAT stops someone from becoming middle class?

Other than no education, a rap sheet, lots of kids to feed, big time debt or laziness?

Other than self inflicted issues, what stops a person?

*sigh*...............again?

I'm bored of you....so this will be quick.

Stagnant wages.
Banks becoming gambling houses.
Manufacturing exodus.
Skyrocketing cost of living.

That should do it.

But somehow plenty of people obtain middle class status even with the above existing.

So I ask again............what stops a person from becoming middle class other than self inflicted problems?

 

[yidnar]

Protesting in order to change policy in order to improve your own life is a horribly inefficient way to improve one's life. But protesters aren't trying to change things just for themselves, they're trying to change things for everyone (though I'm not exactly sure what change they're trying to make).

Protesters could do more to help themselves if they worked for minimum wage instead of protesting. But they could do the same working for minimum wage instead of standing in line at a voting booth. They aren't protesting to line their own pockets, they're trying to change society.

Wow. I strongly disagree. They are demanding ridiculous things.

The society they live in allows them to become billionaires if they should take that path and succeed. It also allows them to live happy, middle class lives.

However, it requires responsible choices, like school, not committing crime, sexual responsibility, debt control, and the humble willingness to work low level jobs and work one's way up.

They seem unwilling to do one or more of the above.

sorry libbs !!! looks like you're out !!

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Wow. I strongly disagree. They are demanding ridiculous things.

In your opinion.

The First Amendment ‘right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances’ isn’t predicated on society’s prior approval.

Since 1913 the government has been regulating the economy, Capitalism was abandoned in favor of fascism.

So US government interventionism has adversely affected individuals and corporations.

And your ‘solution’ is what, go back to before 1913; the problem with reactionaries is they fail to understand is that progress is inevitable, regardless how much they may not like it.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Ok. Then WHAT stops someone from becoming middle class?

Other than no education, a rap sheet, lots of kids to feed, big time debt or laziness?

Other than self inflicted issues, what stops a person?

*sigh*...............again?

I'm bored of you....so this will be quick.

Stagnant wages.
Banks becoming gambling houses.
Manufacturing exodus.
Skyrocketing cost of living.

That should do it.

But somehow plenty of people obtain middle class status even with the above existing.

So I ask again............what stops a person from becoming middle class other than self inflicted problems?

Yeah......."plenty" is a vague term. The fucking number is dwindling. There are fewer reaching the middle class and more dropping from it. You are WRONG.

 

[bucs90]

Protesting in order to change policy in order to improve your own life is a horribly inefficient way to improve one's life. But protesters aren't trying to change things just for themselves, they're trying to change things for everyone (though I'm not exactly sure what change they're trying to make).

Protesters could do more to help themselves if they worked for minimum wage instead of protesting. But they could do the same working for minimum wage instead of standing in line at a voting booth. They aren't protesting to line their own pockets, they're trying to change society.

Wow. I strongly disagree. They are demanding ridiculous things.

The society they live in allows them to become billionaires if they should take that path and succeed. It also allows them to live happy, middle class lives.

However, it requires responsible choices, like school, not committing crime, sexual responsibility, debt control, and the humble willingness to work low level jobs and work one's way up.

They seem unwilling to do one or more of the above.

sorry libbs !!! looks like you're out !!

Thats just it. For most of the people who are under middle class, nothing is stopping them except themselves. Maybe I just believe in people too much, but I think almost anyone can make middle class if they make good choices.

And anyone that was there, and saw tough times, can claw their way back to it. I just don't think some dipshit politicians in DC or rich guys in NYC can prevent that.

 

[ladyliberal]

I seriously doubt the OWS folks would take a minimum wage job with the intent of "personal enrichment". I bet most refuse to work one. Dominoes Pizza and Target are known to be ALWAYS hiring, and currently are, and can't find anyone to do the jobs.

Honestly, I don't have a list. There are many out there, but in fairness, who knows what is legit and isn't.

I don't think they are all like the traits. I just said those traits will hamper success. I bet many of the OWS have college degrees. Probably in a useless topic like Diversity Studies, or Music, or anything non-science related.

But I'd also bet many can't get a good job due to 1 or more of those things listed.

I think I may have been unclear. I wasn't suggesting that the protesters couldn't get minimum wage jobs. I was saying that a protester who was looking to line his or her pockets would do better working minimum wage than protesting. This was part of an argument I was developing to try to rebut your suggestion that the protesters were motivated largely by a desire for personal enrichment.

I certainly agree with you that unemployed people, protesting or not, are on average less employable than employed people. And I appreciate your unwillingness to attribute to the entire movement the demands that some members have made (many of which are indeed ridiculous).

 

[techieny]

I made it on my own. Worked myself through college. Have a great career where I try and instill the values of had work, self respect, and encouraging employees to do the right thing. Nobody owes me a damn thing, but I owe othesr my knowledge share. Go hard people!

 

[Photonic]

If there is a significant amount of people experiencing the same problem, it's reasonable to assume there is a cause outside the individual.

To that end I highly doubt the individual is at blame here.

 

[WatertheTree]

I'm in the "99%" I suppose. Earn about 60K a year. Very modest. Own a home and a car. Have no debt except 30K more on my home. I graduated high school and college. Avoided having kids out of wedlock. Never committed any felonies. Worked a lot of crappy, low pay jobs after college and kept working and applying, and eventually got better jobs. I workout and stay fit. I'm not in the richest 1%. Yet....I'm happy. I'm fed. I'm healthy. I have no gripes. No ill will towards any rich person or corporation.

So I must ask....if you are in the 99% AND you are pissed about it, who is more at fault for your circumstance?

- Yourself?
- A corporation?
- The government?
- A rich guy?

I think some of you folks need to join "Occupy Myself" and realize your unhappiness is almost 99% your own fault. Stop blaming others. Work low level stuff until you earn your way up like the rest of us did.

Because I bet if you graduate, don't make kids out of wedlock, stay out of debt and out of jail, stay employed no matter how much you think you are "too good" for a job, and keep yourself fit........I bet if you do all that you'll be happily among the 99%. Like me.

Our money system ensures that there are losers. When there is more debt then all the money in circulation its like playing musical chairs on who gets bills paid.

Of course there is a certian degree of personel responsability there, but the deck is pretty stacked.

 

[bucs90]

I seriously doubt the OWS folks would take a minimum wage job with the intent of "personal enrichment". I bet most refuse to work one. Dominoes Pizza and Target are known to be ALWAYS hiring, and currently are, and can't find anyone to do the jobs.

Honestly, I don't have a list. There are many out there, but in fairness, who knows what is legit and isn't.

I don't think they are all like the traits. I just said those traits will hamper success. I bet many of the OWS have college degrees. Probably in a useless topic like Diversity Studies, or Music, or anything non-science related.

But I'd also bet many can't get a good job due to 1 or more of those things listed.

I think I may have been unclear. I wasn't suggesting that the protesters couldn't get minimum wage jobs. I was saying that a protester who was looking to line his or her pockets would do better working minimum wage than protesting. This was part of an argument I was developing to try to rebut your suggestion that the protesters were motivated largely by a desire for personal enrichment.

I certainly agree with you that unemployed people, protesting or not, are on average less employable than employed people. And I appreciate your unwillingness to attribute to the entire movement the demands that some members have made (many of which are indeed ridiculous).

Oh, yes, I misunderstood you. You're right, and I agree, working min wage would be better than protesting. However, I just think most of them aren't willing to take those jobs. They either just are lazy, think they're too good for those jobs, or have some idea that holding out will result in that great 60K job right away.

Yeah, I know some wild groups have been attracted to the movement. And I pick on them in good fun. But there is so much crap out there, just like the Tea Party, and plants also, it's hard to really know whats for real and whats a scam, a plant or a twist of the truth. I appreciate your logical debate, even if we disagree a bit. Too many people wont do that, on both sides and the middle.

 

[Contumacious]

Wow. I strongly disagree. They are demanding ridiculous things.

In your opinion.

The First Amendment ‘right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances’ isn’t predicated on society’s prior approval.

Since 1913 the government has been regulating the economy, Capitalism was abandoned in favor of fascism.

So US government interventionism has adversely affected individuals and corporations.

And your ‘solution’ is what, go back to before 1913; the problem with reactionaries is they fail to understand is that progress is inevitable, regardless how much they may not like it.

Well, if you want the US to be a prosperous country with a thriving economy then the welfare/warfare state must be abolished, pronto.

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Holy shit! Can we have another thread where insecure nutters have a chance to pat themselves on the fucking back?!!

You people are gonna strain your imaginary back from pulling up on those imaginary bootsraps all fucking day.

 

[bucs90]

If there is a significant amount of people experiencing the same problem, it's reasonable to assume there is a cause outside the individual.

To that end I highly doubt the individual is at blame here.

A significant number of people suffer from doing crack, meth and heroine.
A signifitcant number of people have too many kids out of wedlock.

Both are problems. Neither are anyone's fault but their own.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm in the "99%" I suppose. Earn about 60K a year. Very modest. Own a home and a car. Have no debt except 30K more on my home. I graduated high school and college. Avoided having kids out of wedlock. Never committed any felonies. Worked a lot of crappy, low pay jobs after college and kept working and applying, and eventually got better jobs. I workout and stay fit. I'm not in the richest 1%. Yet....I'm happy. I'm fed. I'm healthy. I have no gripes. No ill will towards any rich person or corporation.

So I must ask....if you are in the 99% AND you are pissed about it, who is more at fault for your circumstance?

- Yourself?
- A corporation?
- The government?
- A rich guy?

I think some of you folks need to join "Occupy Myself" and realize your unhappiness is almost 99% your own fault. Stop blaming others. Work low level stuff until you earn your way up like the rest of us did.

Because I bet if you graduate, don't make kids out of wedlock, stay out of debt and out of jail, stay employed no matter how much you think you are "too good" for a job, and keep yourself fit........I bet if you do all that you'll be happily among the 99%. Like me.

Our money system ensures that there are losers. When there is more debt then all the money in circulation its like playing musical chairs on who gets bills paid.

Of course there is a certian degree of personel responsability there, but the deck is pretty stacked.

Debt has always exceeded money in circulation.