If you cannot love an eternal torment god

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years of the Christian church, universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine of a large majority of the Christian church. To find the evidence that this is so, copy and paste into Google

These online books also explain why and how this changed.
Copy and paste into Google

History of opinions on the scriptural doctrine
or
The Church Fathers Testify To The Ultimate Triumph Of Jesus Christ
or
books prevailing
or
origin and history of the doctrine
or
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that all of the links referred to but not posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

You can Google up many similar testimonies by typing in
tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES (Google it up)

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism Google up
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinistic).

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved. Google up
lake of fire eby

You can also Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of TENTMAKER (Google it up), and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

You can Google up his answer by typing in
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,

Copy and paste into Google
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION

 

[rodgertutt]

My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page on my site.

Google up HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.

Also see the testimonies at TENTMAKER. Google up
TENTMAKER VISITOR COMMENTS

Also Google up tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.

Google up
universalism is not in the bible?

I'm 70, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) because of my inability to love an endless-hell god. I’m 70 now.

If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines.
Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.
I have exhaustively studied both sides myself.

This debate always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.
The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars quoted in
chapters three and twelve of his online book IMHO renders all other arguments irrelevant.

IMHO these findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold.
But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean.

Just Google up AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS and enjoy

If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.
But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

I am a Concordant Christian. I have read and recorded gleanings into my more than four thousand page personal journal from most of the back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES that has been published back to 1909. Every argument that I have ever heard against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been repeatedly dealt with in these magazines.
Largely, but not exclusively, because of the contents in these magazines, I am convinced that the evidence in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation is irrefutable. That is why the argument that we should teach endless suffering in hell just in case it might be true is unacceptable to me.

IMHO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in "eternal suffering" for anyone and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.

Why not check out the reasons why we believe the Bible teaches universal transformation by typing into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

I also would like to leave you with one more thing. I am going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.

You can Google up his testimony by typing in
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

It may begin to change your thinking.

God bless you in your study!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada

 

[KittenKoder]

What the frell?

 

[rodgertutt]

ANYONE IS WELCOME TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THEY WANT TO

I posted on this forum in case there was a member or surfer or lurker who might benefit from the same info that was such a help to me.

IMHO It is totally insane to think that anyone will PREFER to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
This was the thinking that caused my twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78
(I'm 70 now)
I was SO GLAD to learn about the following information.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE

Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
Or
WHAT ABOUT THE ANNIHILATION OF THE WICKED?

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible.
And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown 1966-78
I’m 70 years old now

I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
Copy and paste into Google any of the following titles.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle

1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)

2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin

3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson

4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer

5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley

6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby

7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore

8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods

9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes

10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford

11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching

12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault

13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson

14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson

15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA

16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb

17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram

18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew jukes

19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin

20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES - Eby

 

[KittenKoder]

Bah! Another Canadian ... great, like we need another one. Why is it all the cool Canadians never come online?

 

[rodgertutt]

Bah! Another Canadian ... great, like we need another one. Why is it all the cool Canadians never come online?

My wife thinks I'm cool, and she's American.
So cool that we've been happily married for 46 years.
Our kids think I'm cool too and they are both American too.

 

[KittenKoder]

Bah! Another Canadian ... great, like we need another one. Why is it all the cool Canadians never come online?

My wife thinks I'm cool, and she's American.
So cool that we've been happily married for 46 years.
Our kids think I'm cool too and they are both American too.

Just because we are part of the same continent doesn't mean they are US citizens ... hell ... Mexicans could post better than the Canadians on here have ... you included.

 

[rodgertutt]

Bah! Another Canadian ... great, like we need another one. Why is it all the cool Canadians never come online?

My wife thinks I'm cool, and she's American.
So cool that we've been happily married for 46 years.
Our kids think I'm cool too and they are both American too.

Just because we are part of the same continent doesn't mean they are US citizens ... hell ... Mexicans could post better than the Canadians on here have ... you included.

Yep, all three are US citizens.
As for what I posted, "one man's meat is another man's poison," as the saying goes.

 

[KittenKoder]

My wife thinks I'm cool, and she's American.
So cool that we've been happily married for 46 years.
Our kids think I'm cool too and they are both American too.

Just because we are part of the same continent doesn't mean they are US citizens ... hell ... Mexicans could post better than the Canadians on here have ... you included.

Yep, all three are US citizens.
As for what I posted, "one man's meat is another man's poison," as the saying goes.

I feel sorry for them ...

 

[Amanda]

Can you give us the Readers Digest version of all that? I'm not going on a Google hunt to try to figure out what your point is.

 

[rodgertutt]

Can you give us the Readers Digest version of all that? I'm not going on a Google hunt to try to figure out what your point is.

Glad to!

IMHO nothing condences what I am saying better that Dr. Leslie Weatherhead in his book THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

The best single expanded version would be this link;
especially the very last paragraph of it.
Copy and paste into Google
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS EBY

 

[Truthspeaker]

Hell is so different from what people think it is. Eternal Torment is very easily misunderstood. There IS a place that is prepared for the suffering of sinners who refuse repentance. It is not a literal lake of fire and brimstone but it is a place of suffering.

This PLACE is endless; but it was never said that that was the eternal dwelling place of an individual. It is a place of purging.

There is deliverance from this place but it requires untold amounts of suffering in order to be delivered.

 

[rodgertutt]

Hell is so different from what people think it is. Eternal Torment is very easily misunderstood. There IS a place that is prepared for the suffering of sinners who refuse repentance. It is not a literal lake of fire and brimstone but it is a place of suffering.
This PLACE is endless; but it was never said that that was the eternal dwelling place of an individual. It is a place of purging.
There is deliverance from this place but it requires untold amounts of suffering in order to be delivered.

SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement. It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.

According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood.

We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.

It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence.

The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.

You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"

There actually is much evidence.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.

Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:

Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

Type into Google
The lake of fire Eby

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it.

 

[dilloduck]

no one will escape it.

crap

 

[rodgertutt]

no one will escape it.

crap

That of course means no one will escape it if God sees they need it whether or not they claim to be a "Christian."
No one will experience the lake of fire which is the second death if God doesn't see they need to.

Because I haven't posted 15 messages I still can't post a url.
But there is an excellent article on the subject of "the lake of fire which is the second death" if you copy and paste into Google

THE LAKE OF FIRE EBY

 

[Truthspeaker]

Just because there is a place doesn't mean we should relax. That is why God tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is much better to keep God's commandments. There will be rewards that the obedient get that others will never get. There is a type of hell in that. Damnation is just like a damn. Stopped in progression, not burning in hell forever. Eternal Life is the ability to live with God in his domain and not some other place prepared for those delivered from eternal torment, however nice it may be.

 

[Burp]

Here he is:

Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt

 

[rodgertutt]

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
Copy and paste into Google
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS EBY
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in sin and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Regarding “the son of perdition”
copy and paste into Google
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
then scroll down and click
THE SON OF PERDITION

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

copy and paste into Google
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
an online scriptural expostion

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
copy and paste into Google
The eons of the Bible With Concordance

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan&#8221 necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

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reconcilation in the heavens eby

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
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tentmaker books chapter eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
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Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
or
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

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LAKE OF FIRE EBY

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

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CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
(an online scriptural exposition)
or
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

 

[Gunny]

no one will escape it.

crap

 

[rodgertutt]

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
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THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS EBY
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in sin and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Regarding “the son of perdition”
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BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
then scroll down and click
THE SON OF PERDITION

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

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THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
an online scriptural expostion

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
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The eons of the Bible With Concordance

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

copy and paste into Google
reconcilation in the heavens eby

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
copy and paste into Google
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
or
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

copy and paste into Google
LAKE OF FIRE EBY

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

copy and paste into Google
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
(an online scriptural exposition)
or
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

No one will escape the lake of fire which is the second death who needs the kolasis aionian (age-during corrective chastisement) that it will achieve. Not even people who call themselves Christian will escape it if God sees they need it.
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the lake of fire eby