If you cannot love an eternal torment god

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by rodgertutt, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. rodgertutt
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    rodgertutt Member

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    If you cannot love an eternal torment god

    For the first 500 years of the Christian church, universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine of a large majority of the Christian church. To find the evidence that this is so, copy and paste into Google

    These online books also explain why and how this changed.
    Copy and paste into Google

    History of opinions on the scriptural doctrine
    or
    The Church Fathers Testify To The Ultimate Triumph Of Jesus Christ
    or
    books prevailing
    or
    origin and history of the doctrine
    or
    Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

    The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

    The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

    Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that all of the links referred to but not posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

    I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

    This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

    You can Google up many similar testimonies by typing in
    tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

    If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

    THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES (Google it up)

    THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

    The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

    The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

    “Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

    The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

    The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

    "I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

    And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

    To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism Google up
    ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

    Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

    What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinistic).

    Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

    Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

    Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved. Google up
    lake of fire eby

    You can also Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
    kolasis aionian

    Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of TENTMAKER (Google it up), and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

    This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70

    I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

    You can Google up his answer by typing in
    ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

    POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,

    Copy and paste into Google
    ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  2. rodgertutt
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    rodgertutt Member

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    My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page on my site.

    Google up HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
    My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.

    Also see the testimonies at TENTMAKER. Google up
    TENTMAKER VISITOR COMMENTS

    Also Google up tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

    SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

    We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.

    Google up
    universalism is not in the bible?

    I'm 70, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

    I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) because of my inability to love an endless-hell god. I’m 70 now.

    If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines.
    Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

    Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.
    I have exhaustively studied both sides myself.

    This debate always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.
    The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars quoted in
    chapters three and twelve of his online book IMHO renders all other arguments irrelevant.

    IMHO these findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold.
    But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean.

    Just Google up AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS and enjoy

    If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.
    But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

    I am a Concordant Christian. I have read and recorded gleanings into my more than four thousand page personal journal from most of the back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES that has been published back to 1909. Every argument that I have ever heard against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been repeatedly dealt with in these magazines.
    Largely, but not exclusively, because of the contents in these magazines, I am convinced that the evidence in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation is irrefutable. That is why the argument that we should teach endless suffering in hell just in case it might be true is unacceptable to me.

    IMHO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in "eternal suffering" for anyone and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.

    Why not check out the reasons why we believe the Bible teaches universal transformation by typing into Google
    THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
    or
    UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
    or
    ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

    I also would like to leave you with one more thing. I am going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.

    You can Google up his testimony by typing in
    ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

    It may begin to change your thinking.

    God bless you in your study!
    From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
     
  3. KittenKoder
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    KittenKoder Senior Member

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    What the frell?
     
  4. rodgertutt
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    rodgertutt Member

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    ANYONE IS WELCOME TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THEY WANT TO

    I posted on this forum in case there was a member or surfer or lurker who might benefit from the same info that was such a help to me.

    IMHO It is totally insane to think that anyone will PREFER to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
    This was the thinking that caused my twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78
    (I'm 70 now)
    I was SO GLAD to learn about the following information.

    THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

    The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
    My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
    AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS

    If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

    But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

    ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE

    Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
    Or
    Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
    Or
    Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
    Copy and paste into Google
    THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
    Or
    ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
    Or
    UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
    Or
    ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
    Or
    WHAT ABOUT THE ANNIHILATION OF THE WICKED?

    I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

    But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible.
    And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

    How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown 1966-78
    I’m 70 years old now


    I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

    BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION
    THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
    Copy and paste into Google any of the following titles.

    0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle

    1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)

    2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin

    3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson

    4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer

    5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley

    6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby

    7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore

    8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods

    9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes

    10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford

    11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching

    12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault

    13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson

    14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson

    15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA

    16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
    AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb

    17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram

    18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew jukes

    19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin

    20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES - Eby
     
  5. KittenKoder
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    KittenKoder Senior Member

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    Bah! Another Canadian ... great, like we need another one. Why is it all the cool Canadians never come online?
     
  6. rodgertutt
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    rodgertutt Member

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    My wife thinks I'm cool, and she's American.
    So cool that we've been happily married for 46 years.
    Our kids think I'm cool too and they are both American too. :cool:
     
  7. KittenKoder
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    KittenKoder Senior Member

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    Just because we are part of the same continent doesn't mean they are US citizens ... hell ... Mexicans could post better than the Canadians on here have ... you included.
     
  8. rodgertutt
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    rodgertutt Member

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    Yep, all three are US citizens.
    As for what I posted, "one man's meat is another man's poison," as the saying goes.
     
  9. KittenKoder
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    KittenKoder Senior Member

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    I feel sorry for them ...
     
  10. Amanda
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    Amanda Calm as a Hindu cow

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    Can you give us the Readers Digest version of all that? I'm not going on a Google hunt to try to figure out what your point is.
     

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