If we Socialize Medicine, can we get rid of Insurance Companies?

[boedicca]

Japan is a dying society due to its incredibly low birth rate, massive debt, and resistance to immigration.

Emulating it is suicide pact.

 

[lynn63]

Healthmyths,
Please don't start with your personal insults and screaching rhetoric. First of all, you are going to give yourself a coronary. Second, you have zero credentials in health insurance compared to me. My 50 year career was spent in health insurance, including over 25 years in senior managment at the VP level. Go to the library, and read the March 3 issue of Time Magazine, which is dedicated totally to health care costs, then get back to me. It is the first time I have ever seen the whole convaluted system exposed in a way that people can understand.

Right... And I started a company (NOT work for..STARTED!!) that every day 24 hours thousands of requests to advise medicare providers whether they will be paid!
So I have better obviously credentials then YOU!

And more importantly REFUTE with your credentials the FACT THERE NEVER were 46 million truly uninsured that want insurance??

10 million of the 46 per the CENSUS are illegal citizens i.e. NOT ELIGIBLE!
14 million counted as uninsured because they said so don't know THEY are eligible all they need to do is ENROLL in Medicaid!
18 million people who can afford at $50k a year and don't want because under age 34 they pay all their health services out of their pocket are counted.. falsely!
And for those 42 million reasons there are less then 4 million truly need and there is NO need to destroy health care system that is the best in the world!

NOW are you telling me with all your 25 years experience that the entire problem is the insurance companies fault.. even an idiot knows the companies and
Medicare SIMPLY pay the claims submitted!!

And among those claims are $850 billion a year in defensive medicine... PLEASE WITH YOUR VAST knowledge refute this:
NOW if you want to solve the problem of these 4 million "uninsured"
TAX lawyers 10% like Obamacare did tanning salons!
After all the experts i.e. doctors all contend they spend 34% of the national $2.5 trillion in duplicate tests,specialists. ALL out of fear of lawsuits!
That's $850 billion!
Findings from this survey include the following:

• Physicians estimate the cost of defensive medicine in US at $650 to $850 billion per year. This is 26 to 34% of all US healthcare costs.
• Up to 92% of US physicians practice defensive medicine.
• 76% of physicians report that defensive medicine decreases patient access to healthcare.
• 53% of physicians report delaying new techniques, procedures, and treatments due to fear of lawsuits.
• Patients most affected by defensive medicine include those visiting emergency rooms and those requiring surgery.
• Women are most affected by defensive medicine.
• Emergency medicine, primary care, and OB/GYN physicians are most likely to practice defensive medicine.
• 79 to 83% of surgeons and OB/GYNs have been named in lawsuits.
• Physicians contracted by the federal government practice significantly less defensive medicine as they are protected against lawsuits by the Federal Tort Claims Act. Only 48% practice defensive medicine compared to 92% of non-government physicians.
• Physicians in New Zealand, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Sweden (much lower risk of lawsuits) claim to order no tests, treatments, or consultations in an effort to prevent a lawsuit.
• 89% of physicians support a patient’s right to be compensated fairly for true negligence.

Source:Health News Observer ? Physicians Estimate The Cost Of Defensive Medicine In Us At 650 To 850 Bill Articles

I will insult ignorance regardless of credentials all day because YOU provided NO facts countering the facts I've supplied!
Counter them and I'll apologize!

You know nothing about insurance and how they pay claims. They never pay in full of the total charges that is submitted. They allow maybe half of all costs in healthcare except lab. They pay next to nothing for them.

It is 45 million who are uninsured and it does not include illegal immigrants. 10% of the 45 million people are considered not poor that do not have insurance. Most minimum wage jobs don't have health coverage. Why do think McDonalds, Wendy's and all those other franchises are scrambling to reduce hours for? Most of the 45 million make under 35,000 a year. It will target many of the self-employed and anyone receiving a paycheck for employment to be audited for the IRS to keep track of.

Anyone that does not file taxes or earn any income will fall through the cracks of being noticed that they are not insured.

 

[healthmyths]

Health Savings Accounts?

It seems that you have rethought your OP......

By the way, Carson does suggest that insurance companies be reigned in to a point of "adequate profit". Which might run him into a little trouble with the "conservatives" who claim to want government out of health care.

What the hell is "adequate Profit"??? Look at this list..
Accident & Health Insurance 8.6% comes in at 75th out of 218 industries.
Why don't you blast broadcast - radio at 62%
How about the net profit margin this past year for legal services firms was 19.6% (158% higher than the average private company).
Fuse / GETTY IMAGES/FUSE
Industry Browser - Yahoo! Finance - Full Industry List
Industry summary As of 28-Mar-2013

Industry Net Profit Margin (mrq)
Broadcasting - Radio 62.8%
Publishing - Periodicals 60.1
Closed-End Fund - Foreign 38.3
REIT - Diversified 37.6
REIT - Residential 35.3
Silver 31.7
REIT - Healthcare Facilities 24.3
Mortgage Investment 22.7
Internet Information Providers 21.8
Personal Computers 20.7
Copper 20.4
Gold 20.3
Regional - Southwest Banks 20
Regional - Midwest Banks 19.8
Application Software 19.4
Asset Management 18.6
Drug Manufacturers - Major 18.4
REIT - Retail 18
Regional - Pacific Banks 17.6
Agricultural Chemicals 17.6
General Entertainment 16.6
Beverages - Brewers 16.6
Regional - Northeast Banks 16.4
Railroads 16
Credit Services 15.3
Security Software & Services 14.7
Synthetics 14.5
Networking & Communication Devices 14.3
REIT - Office 14.2
Medical Instruments & Supplies 13.9
Savings & Loans 13.5
Regional - Mid-Atlantic Banks 13.3
Cigarettes 13.3
Water Utilities 13.2
Foreign Regional Banks 13
Publishing - Books 12.9
Property Management 12.9
CATV Systems 12.8
Foreign Utilities 12.7
Drug Manufacturers - Other 12.6
Beverages - Wineries & Distillers 12.6
Technical & System Software 12.5
Data Storage Devices 12.3
Industrial Metals & Minerals 12
Beverages - Soft Drinks 11.9
Oil & Gas Drilling & Exploration 11.8
Research Services 11.7
Drug Related Products 11.7
Semiconductor - Integrated Circuits 11.6
Regional - Southeast Banks 11.4
Personal Products 11
Biotechnology 10.9
Multimedia & Graphics Software 10.6
Broadcasting - TV 10.6
Air Services, Other 10.6
Diversified Investments 10.5
Real Estate Development 10.4
Conglomerates 10.3
Wireless Communications 10.2
Restaurants 10.2
Specialty Eateries 10.1
Nonmetallic Mineral Mining 10.1
Long Distance Carriers 10.1
Business Software & Services 10.1
Medical Appliances & Equipment 10
Money Center Banks 9.9
Textile - Apparel Footwear & Accessories 9.6
Gas Utilities 9.4
Foreign Money Center Banks 9.4
Toys & Games 9.2
Small Tools & Accessories 9.2
Semiconductor Equipment & Materials 9
Scientific & Technical Instruments 8.7
Home Furnishing Stores 8.6
Accident & Health Insurance 8.6
Recreational Vehicles 8.5
Property & Casualty Insurance 8.2
Oil & Gas Equipment & Services 8.2
Auto Parts Stores 8.2
Medical Laboratories & Research 8.1
Gaming Activities 8.1
Business Services 8.1
Processed & Packaged Goods 8
Specialized Health Services 7.9
Independent Oil & Gas 7.9
Entertainment - Diversified 7.9
Telecom Services - Foreign 7.8
Residential Construction 7.8
Diversified Machinery 7.8
Confectioners 7.8
Major Integrated Oil & Gas 7.7
Diagnostic Substances 7.7
Machine Tools & Accessories 7.5
Jewelry Stores 7.4
Aerospace/Defense - Major Diversified 7.3
Telecom Services - Domestic 7.2
Specialty Chemicals 7.2
Insurance Brokers 7.2
Pollution & Treatment Controls 7.1
Photographic Equipment & Supplies 7.1
Lodging 7
Industrial Electrical Equipment 7
Farm & Construction Machinery 7
Advertising Agencies 6.9
Oil & Gas Pipelines 6.8
Industrial Equipment & Components 6.7
Food - Major Diversified 6.7
Cleaning Products 6.7
Textile - Apparel Clothing 6.5
Housewares & Accessories 6.5
Lumber, Wood Production 6.4
Semiconductor - Broad Line 6.3
Recreational Goods, Other 6.2
Sporting Activities 5.9
Personal Services 5.9
Semiconductor - Specialized 5.8
Aerospace/Defense Products & Services 5.7
Industrial Equipment Wholesale 5.5
Electric Utilities 5.5
Drugs - Generic 5.4
Auto Parts 5.4
Healthcare Information Services 5.3
Processing Systems & Products 5.2
Business Equipment 5.1
Surety & Title Insurance 5
Apparel Stores 4.9
Management Services 4.8
Sporting Goods Stores 4.6
Rental & Leasing Services 4.6
Home Improvement Stores 4.6
Diversified Electronics 4.6
Computer Peripherals 4.6
Catalog & Mail Order Houses 4.6
Investment Brokerage - National 4.5
Hospitals 4.5
Chemicals - Major Diversified 4.5
Security & Protection Services 4.4
Medical Practitioners 4.4
Communication Equipment 4.3
Home Furnishings & Fixtures 4.2
Metal Fabrication 4.1
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Auto Parts Wholesale 3.9
Manufactured Housing 3.8
Packaging & Containers 3.7
Meat Products 3.7
Publishing - Newspapers 3.6
Textile Industrial 3.5
Health Care Plans 3.5
Discount, Variety Stores 3.5
Regional Airlines 3.4
Medical Equipment Wholesale 3.3
Life Insurance 3.3
Air Delivery & Freight Services 3.2
Movie Production, Theaters 3.1
Auto Manufacturers - Major 3.1
Oil & Gas Refining & Marketing 2.9
Wholesale, Other 2.7
Staffing & Outsourcing Services 2.7
Rubber & Plastics 2.7
Trucking 2.6
Tobacco Products, Other 2.6
Drug Stores 2.6
Diversified Utilities 2.6
Consumer Services 2.6
Appliances 2.6
Technical Services 2.5
Internet Service Providers 2.5
Computer Based Systems 2.5
Resorts & Casinos 2.4
Internet Software & Services 2.4
Auto Dealerships 2.4
Waste Management 2.3
Electronics Wholesale 2.3
Major Airlines 2.1
Heavy Construction 2.1
Specialty Retail, Other 2
Office Supplies 2
Food Wholesale 2
Diversified Computer Systems 2
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Paper & Paper Products 1.8
Information Technology Services 1.7
Building Materials Wholesale 1.7
Printed Circuit Boards 1.6
Dairy Products 1.5
Drugs Wholesale 1.3
Marketing Services 1.1
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General Building Materials 1.1
Farm Products 1
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Department Stores 0.8
Grocery Stores 0.7
Computers Wholesale 0.7
Information & Delivery Services 0.6
Electronics Stores 0.4
Basic Materials Wholesale 0.3
Music & Video Stores 0
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REIT - Hotel/Motel -0.2
Sporting Goods -0.7
Cement -0.9
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Diversified Communication Services -3.2
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Home Health Care -6.6
Electronic Equipment -7.7
Semiconductor- Memory Chips -12.1
Shipping -12.8
REIT - Industrial -15.6

 

[JakeStarkey]

ACA is the health insurance's industry to get it right. If it can't make the 80% requirement of dollars spent on care and delivery while trying to maintain the outlandish profit and dividend margins (making profit through denying coverage to the ill), then single payer for all (Medicare) will be the next step.

There's nothing "outlandish" about insurance industry profits. 6% is hardly a reason for outrage. The cost of healthcare is so high precisely because of government meddling. Laws that limit the number of hospitals that can be built are a classic example. When you restrict the supply of hospital beds, you drive up the price. It's simple economics.

When insurance corps make it 7% in every division of the business at the expense of denying insurance to the ill. And do you have evidence for links limiting hospitals, etc?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Japan is a dying society due to its incredibly low birth rate, massive debt, and resistance to immigration.

Emulating it is suicide pact.

especially their gun control.....we'd have no guns to commit suicide with......

 

[JakeStarkey]

Guess what Japan's debt to GDP ratio is. Go ahead.

Doesn't mean a thing if you can't show the debt to GDP ratio is caused by government health care.

Coincidence is not causation.

 

[healthmyths]

I was thinking about it this morning.

If the government is in the process of socializing medicine and making it available to everybody, wouldn't that eliminate the need for insurance companies?

I mean, why would there even be any? They don't provide any medical service. If anything they would only slow things down. And I'd also assume they'd artificially drive the cost of healthcare up, as they would essentially be making profits without offering any real value. And they do make quite a bit of profit.

Wouldn't this also make the cost of healthcare much cheaper?

I understand this idea is a bit radical, especially for a conservative like myself. But as a fiscal conservative I'm also against waste and inefficiency. Hence, medical insurance companies came to mind.

What are your thoughts?

Why that's what Obama Prefers!!! Obama has said: "I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program."Obama's words exactly!!
which means that you and he ...
prefer to destroy the 1,300 health insurance companies
that pay $100 billion a YEAR in Federal/State/Local taxes AND local property taxes on their office buildings!
You and Obama prefer to put out of work the 400,000 people that work in the health insurance companies!"
YOU and Obama prefer to pay out over 99 weeks at $300/week -- $11.8 billion in unemployment benefits.
You and Obama prefer to make up out of YOUR tax payments
400,000 employees at $40,000/year SS/Medicare payments of @15.3% paid by employer/employee or $2.4 billion a year paid into Federal govt.

All in in you and Obama prefer that local property taxes will increase because non-profits i.e. govt. don't pay property taxes!

All in all you and Obama prefer to destroy federal tax on dividends paid out to those evil money grubbing pension funds, 401Ks,etc. based on the reality that
the AVERAGE insurance company's net profit BEFORE TAXES is 4.6%?

You are in favor OF THAT but you won't tax LAWYERS 10% of their $200 billion a year income to be used to pay the premium on the truly 4 million uninsured..
(AGAIN you don't seem to handle simple math:
10 million Obama counts as "uninsured" NOT CITIZENS! 14 million he counts as uninsured. Covered already by Medicaid and the biggest phoniest lie
18 million people who pay out of their OwN pocket annually less then $1,000 for health services refuse employer insurance and there fore counted as "uninsured" falsely!
These 18 million are under 34 and make over $50K and they are NOT happy about buying health insurance!
That leaves 4 million truly uninsured that every time they go to the hospital all they need to is show they are registered as a member of the Uninsured Health Insurance Co.!
Hospitals send claims and not allowed to charge then Medicare/insurance companies sometimes 6,000% markups because of EMTALA!!!

But you want the ambulance chasing lawyers to continue putting $850 billion a year in defensive medicine.. (BY FAR the biggest cost driver in insurance premiums/Medicare)
all because the experts i.e. physicians FEAR BEING SUED!
And your solution is to put insurance companies out of business.. causing $100 billion a year in lost tax revenue, putting 400,000 people out of work who'll collect $11 billion?

That's your solution???

Obama also said he wants companies to go bankrupt!!!
"if somebody wants to build coal utility plant it’s just that it will bankrupt them,![/I][/B][/COLOR]"
Why would ANY president want any business to go bankrupt?

And he went on to say: “Under my plan....electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket."
Why would ANY president want electricity rates to skyrocket???

D) Obama said "I'd like higher gas prices.."
WHAT? A president WANTS YOU to pay HIGHER gas prices?

I mean seriously... YOU want health insurance companies to go out of business and in doing so stop paying $100 billion in state taxes, federal taxes, property taxes, sales and use taxes, payroll taxes, workers compensation taxes and unemployment taxes.?

See I don't think YOU much less Obama KNOW HOW MUCH in TAXES businesses pay!

If the insurance companies don't want to be eliminated then they can stop expanding to global markets and use that extra cash into lower deductibles and premiums for US citizens.

HOW do you lower premiums when the AVERAGE of 80% of the premiums go out in CLAIMS???

In 2010, among the top six for-profit insurers, MLRs in the individual market were around 73%;
for companies with 50 or fewer employees were around 79% (the “small group market”);
MLRs for companies with more than 50 employees were around 82% (the “large group market”).
As you can see, plans serving larger institutions have greater efficiencies in how they spend premium dollars.
To put this another way: if an insurer is forced to choose between cutting administrative costs by 42 percent, or not firing its employees and instead hiking premiums by 50 percent, which is it going to choose?

BUT all of that discussion is totally moot!
The problem is NOT the INSURANCE COMPANIES profits or their overhead BUT THE SIMPLE FACT there $850 billion a year in
duplicate tests, i.e. DEFENSIVE MEDICINE that physicians send claims to the companies to PAY!
NEEDLESSLY!
If you all had any common sense ATTACKING the people that pay the claims is so BASACKWARDS!
They simply pay the $850 billion in wasted claims they and Medicare!
Why aren't you idiots comprehending THAT???

 

[g5000]

Guess what Japan's debt to GDP ratio is. Go ahead.

Doesn't mean a thing if you can't show the debt to GDP ratio is caused by government health care.

Coincidence is not causation.

Did you think socialized healthcare was free?

Social and health care spending also accelerate, often placing greater and greater burdens on the government. For example, social security spending in Japan has leapt from 19.7% of the federal budget to more than 31% in the past decade (between 2000 and 2011), according to Japan’s Ministry of Finance. Already, social spending and national debt service costs are causing the federal budget deficit to grow to unwieldy heights and are clearly threatening the cash flow model that has enabled Japan’s rates to stay so low.

The greatest growth industry in Japan right now is perhaps health care, but health care is delivered locally.

The Japanese Debt Crisis (Part 2): When Does Japan Cross the Event Horizon? | Enterprising Investor

Japan does not spend much on defense. They are real big on social spending.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Need some definite evidence of causation, G500.

 

[Political Junky]

Like in Cuba.

Laugh.

Health Care in Cuba

The Cuban health care system is respected around the world, and is literally decades more advanced than any system found in Latin America. For this reason, the Cuban system serves as a model for Third World developing nations.

Why is that funny?

With all due respect,

That's nothing but pure propaganda. The Cuban healthcare system, along with any other government-run program in Cuba are all complete disasters.

Praising the Cuban healthcare system is a joke. If you don't believe me, take a vacation to Cuba and visit the hospitals the locals use.

The US ranks #37
Cuba is #39

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

 

[LoneLaugher]

I love this thread. Lots of experts on the Japanese economy.

Who does not have to pay for and administer health insurance in Japan?

The Japanese are willing to look across seas and find things that work....even if that does not include immigrant labor. Nobody said they do all things perfectly....nor should we emulate all that they do. But they sure as fuck don't let sick people get screwed by profit seeking fuckers. They realize that the country is only as healthy as the poorest citizens.

 

[auditor0007]

I was thinking about it this morning.

If the government is in the process of socializing medicine and making it available to everybody, wouldn't that eliminate the need for insurance companies?

I mean, why would there even be any? They don't provide any medical service. If anything they would only slow things down. And I'd also assume they'd artificially drive the cost of healthcare up, as they would essentially be making profits without offering any real value. And they do make quite a bit of profit.

Wouldn't this also make the cost of healthcare much cheaper?

I understand this idea is a bit radical, especially for a conservative like myself. But as a fiscal conservative I'm also against waste and inefficiency. Hence, medical insurance companies came to mind.

What are your thoughts?

First of all, the term socialized medicine probably does not fit any system that we would ever see. Now, a one payer system where all payments go through the government is a possibility, but the providers would almost certainly remain private, unlike the Canadian system. Also, if we had a one payer system, I'm certain that insurance companies would be able to provide supplemental plans that give those who choose to purchase them, some added benefits. For instance, a supplemental plan might include experimental treatments not covered by a government plan, or a supplemental plan might allow you to jump to the head of the line to see a specialist for a non-life threatening medical issue.

 

[LogikAndReazon]

Yes. A healthcare bureaucracy run by civil servants in a non competitive monopoly is certain to be more cost effective.............any clueless progressive will attest to that........

 

[jasonnfree]

Yes. A healthcare bureaucracy run by civil servants in a non competitive monopoly is certain to be more cost effective.............any clueless progressive will attest to that........

If we had Medicare for all, the highest paid government bureaucrat wouldn't make more than $300,000 a year for one. Social security and tricare, v.a. works pretty good without ceo's making millions a year for denying procedures. I call this progressive, like in making progress. It's not a dirty word like you seem to think. We seem to be the only advanced country that allows profit to come before patients being taken care of.

 

[freedombecki]

I was thinking about it this morning.

If the government is in the process of socializing medicine and making it available to everybody, wouldn't that eliminate the need for insurance companies?

I mean, why would there even be any? They don't provide any medical service. If anything they would only slow things down. And I'd also assume they'd artificially drive the cost of healthcare up, as they would essentially be making profits without offering any real value. And they do make quite a bit of profit.

Wouldn't this also make the cost of healthcare much cheaper?

I understand this idea is a bit radical, especially for a conservative like myself. But as a fiscal conservative I'm also against waste and inefficiency. Hence, medical insurance companies came to mind.

What are your thoughts?

The Democrats thought up a way to offer more expensive healthcare to force OTHER PEOPLE to pay for so of course, we will lose some Insurance companies. But the congresscritters will want to be insured, so some companies will survive if they pay Democrat congresscritters enough in campaign contributions.

The Democrats are seeking the easiest to abuse system possible for their supporters who agree somebody else should be responsible for everything they do that gets human beings in trouble, with their names expunged from any wrong due to their being misunderstood.

 

[Katzndogz]

The goal of obamacare is to eliminate insurance companies and replace $22.00 an hour insurance agents with $48.00 an hour government agents.

 

[JoeNormal]

Yes. A healthcare bureaucracy run by civil servants in a non competitive monopoly is certain to be more cost effective.............any clueless progressive will attest to that........

Are you suggesting that our free market, profit driven system is working well? Hahahahahah!

 

[dblack]

I was thinking about it this morning.

If the government is in the process of socializing medicine and making it available to everybody, wouldn't that eliminate the need for insurance companies?

I mean, why would there even be any? They don't provide any medical service. If anything they would only slow things down. And I'd also assume they'd artificially drive the cost of healthcare up, as they would essentially be making profits without offering any real value. And they do make quite a bit of profit.

Wouldn't this also make the cost of healthcare much cheaper?

I understand this idea is a bit radical, especially for a conservative like myself. But as a fiscal conservative I'm also against waste and inefficiency. Hence, medical insurance companies came to mind.

What are your thoughts?

If we socialize medicine, the government essentially becomes the insurance company. We'll have most of the same hassles and frustrations (and a few new one's to boot) with the new 'insurance company', we just won't have any choice in the matter.

The current clusterfuck is an attempt at transitioning towards that 'goal'. First, they take away our choice to step off the insurance gravy train, and co-opt existing insurance companies as 'partners' with government. This will create a government sponsored cartel of insurance companies, complete with indentured 'customers' via the mandate. The fantasy of reformers is that this will magically morph into socialized medicine.

But it won't. Not anytime soon. It will remain a valuable source of wealth and power for all those invested in controlling it.

 

[Political Junky]

Health Costs: How the U.S. Compares With Other Countries | PBS NewsHour
<excerpt>
The U.S. is a very rich country, but even so, it devotes far more of its economy -- 17.6 percent of GDP in 2010 -- to health than any other country. The Netherlands is the next highest, at 12 percent of GDP, and the average among OECD countries was almost half that of the U.S., at 9.5 percent of GDP.

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

ACA is the health insurance's industry to get it right. If it can't make the 80% requirement of dollars spent on care and delivery while trying to maintain the outlandish profit and dividend margins (making profit through denying coverage to the ill), then single payer for all (Medicare) will be the next step.

There's nothing "outlandish" about insurance industry profits. 6% is hardly a reason for outrage. The cost of healthcare is so high precisely because of government meddling. Laws that limit the number of hospitals that can be built are a classic example. When you restrict the supply of hospital beds, you drive up the price. It's simple economics.

Interestingly, a part of that is close to accurate. Government meddling is part of the problem, but the reduction in beds is the result of privatization and consolidation of local health care systems, hardly a government policy or ideal.

That is what happens when for-profit companies buy nonprofits from local governments and shuts them down or consolidates multiple facilities into a net-smaller facility.